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posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:10 AM
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reply to post by brukernavn
 


here's a better version..





posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:11 AM
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As I have said before, we have never had a true 100% communist country. The USSR is only an example of the things that can go wrong with it.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:11 AM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


I could not have said it better. I agree with you, but am willing to admit that both you and I could be wrong. I hope somebody comes up with something better and DOES prove us wrong.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:14 AM
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The Soviet Union was not communist period.

State ownership is nationalism...


Nationalization (British English spelling nationalisation) is the process of taking an industry or assets into government ownership by a national government or state.[1] Nationalization usually refers to private assets, but may also mean assets owned by lower levels of government, such as municipalities, being transferred to the public sector to be operated and owned by the state. The opposite of nationalization is usually privatization or de-nationalization, but may also be municipalization.


en.wikipedia.org...

The only argument that can be made is they were in the transition period, that included nationalisation of industry.
But it's obvious to anyone who really looks that the Soviet Union was not on any path to anything but those in power making themselves more wealthy. No better, or worse, than capitalism, they both exploit labour.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:14 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


You might be surprised to know that I side more with republicans than democrats.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


But, the Soviet Union was not true communism. O.o


Sorry, I am just not into collectivist statism. That is what communism is and always will be.Utopians keep trying to bring some kind of promise that everyone will be all happy and equal but the ideals of communists must always be forced and that goes against any freedom loving peoples. Nanny Statism is a particularly pernicious form of collectivism because it tries to convince people that the State knows better what is good for everyone. Jonah Goldberg wrote an excellent book called, "Liberal Fascism", which is a great expose on progressive nanny statism.

Also, though you may say you do not like Marx, if you accept the principles of communism, you accept Marx's ideas that private property must be eliminated. Redistribution of wealth is the biggest portion of the communist philosophy, that is a working man's paycheck may be confiscated by the State in order for the people to have a more equitable distribution of resources. That is of course completely unfair, but Statists see it differently.
edit on 12-6-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-6-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by ANOK
 


I hope somebody comes up with something better and DOES prove us wrong.


Of course!

The whole idea of the left was change to something better, not stagnating in a system that does not work, as the right wants. So if something better than socialism comes along then that is what we will work towards. But what could be better than worker ownership? People owning what they produce, and receiving the full fruits of their labour?



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


I hate to distract, but I am listening to my idol, Johnny Cash. He is a quote from him.
Whoopi tai ai oh, back in the saddle again. I wish I could have met him.
Such a marvelous man
Did you that he is the only person in US history whom was sued by the government for a forest fire? Such a funny story.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by ANOK
 


I hope somebody comes up with something better and DOES prove us wrong.


Of course!

The whole idea of the left was change to something better, not stagnating in a system that does not work, as the right wants. So if something better than socialism comes along then that is what we will work towards. But what could be better than worker ownership? People owning what they produce, and receiving the full fruits of their labour?


And you call having your paycheck confiscated and given to another ownership? Laughable at best.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:27 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Sorry, I am just not into collectivist statism. That is what communism is and always will be.


Not true. Communism might be collective, as in people working together for a common goal, gosh how evil of them, but it is not statism.

Communism is the stage after the state has been removed.

You can have state-socialism, but socialism is not the state. Socialism is an economic system, not a political system.

"Anarchism is stateless socialism", Mikhail Bakunin



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by brukernavn
 


I was never into Johnny Cash, but thanks for being friendly.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:28 AM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Anok, I will answer you as an Amerikan would. You are ridiculous. How dare you imply that a worker has any rights whatsoever. Do you truly believe the ridicoulous, nazi ideology that a worker should get what he puts in? So ridiculous.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:31 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Show me a reference to your claim. I would LOVE to see where communism rewards the lazy. It is nowhere in the ideology. Everybody has a right to work, but if you do not, you get NOTHING. Prove me wrong. PLEASE!



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Sorry, I am just not into collectivist statism. That is what communism is and always will be.


Not true. Communism might be collective, as in people working together for a common goal, gosh how evil of them, but it is not statism.

Communism is the stage after the state has been removed.

You can have state-socialism, but socialism is not the state. Socialism is an economic system, not a political system.

"Anarchism is stateless socialism", Mikhail Bakunin


Of course that stage has never been achieved and will never be achieved through force. Anarchism is just a revolutionary tool used by communists to achieve their goals. One can see anarchism being used as a tool today with all the riots and union protests going on around the world. We know that the multibillionaire Socialist Soros has bankrolled quite a few of those anarchist protests behind the scenes.
Every communist is anti-capitalist as well, even though it is wealthy industrialists and bankers bankrolling their efforts, as they did with the Bolsheviks. Read Antony Suttons book, "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution"

vho.org...
edit on 12-6-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:33 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

And you call having your paycheck confiscated and given to another ownership? Laughable at best.


What are you talking about? Who is confiscating my paycheck? I think you are laughably ignorant, and completely uninterested in hearing what I and the OP are saying.

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production. If you own the machinery you use to do your work you give your paycheck to no one. If you work for a private owner, the private owner pays you less than the worth of what you produced, surplus value after your 'wage'. You pay for the private owners living.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:36 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


I will admit that there is some truth to what you say. I do not agree with your sentiment, but I believe in being friendly and open, honest discussion. Thank your for your input. Seriøst.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

And you call having your paycheck confiscated and given to another ownership? Laughable at best.


What are you talking about? Who is confiscating my paycheck? I think you are laughably ignorant, and completely uninterested in hearing what I and the OP are saying.

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production. If you own the machinery you use to do your work you give your paycheck to no one. If you work for a private owner, the private owner pays you less than the worth of what you produced, surplus value after your 'wage'. You pay for the private owners living.


It is not a matter of being uninterested in what you are saying. I have to stop short of using the term "propagandist", because I know full well what communism is, and anyone in the Communist Party knows as well. It would take a completely naive person not to know, and to not know that they use any means to achieve their goals, and many very not-altruisitic methods.
Socialism and communism both recommend redistribution of income. I do know what I am talking about. You can go on and on with the propagandist nonsense of the proletariat owning the means of production, but like I said, Marx and Lenin both stated that a ruling elite would be running things.

Elimination of private property and redistribution of wealth are the two main ideas behind communism. Statism is always the mechanism to enforce all that wonderful equality.
edit on 12-6-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:38 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

And you call having your paycheck confiscated and given to another ownership? Laughable at best.


What are you talking about? Who is confiscating my paycheck? I think you are laughably ignorant, and completely uninterested in hearing what I and the OP are saying.

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production. If you own the machinery you use to do your work you give your paycheck to no one. If you work for a private owner, the private owner pays you less than the worth of what you produced, surplus value after your 'wage'. You pay for the private owners living.


Jøss, you have said it better than I ever could have. Thank you. Worker ownership is EVERYTHING, in my opinion.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:40 AM
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The inherent problem with Communism is that a Man who works hard will receive the same benefits of a Man that does not. Communism is against Human Nature. In Nature just as in Human society....those that survive do so by their skill and cunning.

In Nature...the Lion that makes the kill and puts in all the work is rewarded by the food it consumes. Just like Human Society...there will always be some other Lion who is waiting to steal the kill away...but this is natures survival of the Fittest or Smartest.

I hardly think that a person who goes to Med School...puts in endless hours of study...has to become an intern....and finally after much time is able to Practice Medicine on their own....should be rewarded at the same rate that some slacker who Half Asses everything they do...but yet receives the same pay or lives in the same type of home?

Mind you....I think there is room for a bit of Social Equality...but Communism will never work. Split Infinity



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:40 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

And you call having your paycheck confiscated and given to another ownership? Laughable at best.


What are you talking about? Who is confiscating my paycheck? I think you are laughably ignorant, and completely uninterested in hearing what I and the OP are saying.

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production. If you own the machinery you use to do your work you give your paycheck to no one. If you work for a private owner, the private owner pays you less than the worth of what you produced, surplus value after your 'wage'. You pay for the private owners living.


Jøss, you have said it better than I ever could have. Thank you. Worker ownership is EVERYTHING, in my opinion.


I just had a deja vu, like I read this somewhere else in another thread. Have you posted this before?





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