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posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:42 AM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


You have bought into the bigotry of the West. Under communism, if you do nothing, you get nothing. The worker owns the means of production and profits from his work. If you do not work, unless you are incapable, you get nothing. Think outside of the box.

Ha det bra,
Josef




posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:42 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Of course that stage has never been achieved and will never be achieved through force. Anarchism is just a revolutionary tool used by communists to achieve their goals. One can see anarchism being used as a tool today with all the riots and union protests going on around the world. We know that the multibillionaire Socialist Soros has bankrolled quite a few of those anarchist protests behind the scenes.
Every communist is anti-capitalist as well, even though it is wealthy industrialists and bankers bankrolling their efforts, as they did with the Bolsheviks. Read Antony Suttons book, "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution


I really can't help what other people have done. There is nothing more corrupt than capitalism, and capitalism has corrupted the left. There is no true left in government, the so called left is just a more liberal right-wing.

You seem to be making up a lot of stuff based on out of context stuff you've read.

Yes the Bolshevik Revolution was a mess, and was never intended to form a socialist economy anyway. Something had to happen to replace the old regime they had, which was far worse than even the mess that replaced it.

Events that led up to the Revolution

Basing your opinion of socialism on Russian history is a little silly. Why not look at Spain in the 1930's, and the revolution there instead? Mostly ignored because it contradicts what the capitalist state wanted people to think about socialism. You can't take what people do, and use that as the definition of a label they give themselves. Bad logic.

edit on 6/12/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Show me a reference to your claim. I would LOVE to see where communism rewards the lazy. It is nowhere in the ideology. Everybody has a right to work, but if you do not, you get NOTHING. Prove me wrong. PLEASE!


Well, if you do not work and get nothing, it just shows that it is all sick propaganda for a Statist society which has a ruling politburo to crack the whip. That is what manifested in the soviet union and you know it! Propaganda was used in putting out posters and fliers depicting the great wonders of the worker's world. You know all that workers of the world unite and even the Soviet Union flag has the hammer and sickle on it denoting hard work. Yes, you will work hard and still have your paycheck redistributed. (of course that is already happening here and people are running to have more of it)
edit on 12-6-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:45 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn
For those of you whom assumed. I am not american. I am Norwegian. Communism appeals to me because of the belief of the worker having ownership. Communism has never been seen in modern history. I disagree with the works of Marx, Lenin and Mao. I have read them all. The transition phase that they say is necessary has always failed. Once a human has absolute power (dictator), they will never "step down". It is human nature to keep whatever power one holds. I only believe in worker ownership. So much is misconceived, from anti-communist bigotry... I have heard so much of "if you do not want to work, you get the same as those that work." Where the hell does that thinking come from? In a true communist society, you only get what you put in. If you CHOOSE to not work, you get NOTHING. The workers only get what they produce. Is that not common sense? My favourite source of info is Johnny Cash. He grew up under communism in Dyess Arkansas. Read up on how he grew up and the way that they shared in their labor. The most successful places in America are that way because they practiced communism.
edit on 6/12/2012 by brukernavn because: I shall admit it... I misspelt Arkansas
edit on 6/12/2012 by brukernavn because: Damnit, I dit it again



So you agree that it has never been implemented and every time it has been tried it was through force and ended up a tyranny and dictatorship. Good that is a start. Now tell me how do you propose to implement the worker owned means of production? Where will you get the capital and resources needed to start production? Do you seriously think all the workers will agree with how things will be done and who does what? How will you decide how to distribute the fruits of the labor of the workers? Do you think everyone will be happy with how things are distributed?

Here is the flaws with that system, no two people are alike and some people work faster then other some work harder and some are lazy. So those who work faster and harder will feel slighted if they are distributed equally as those who are lazy. So what do they do well they stop working harder and faster because why should they if they are only getting the same as someone who does not do as much as they do or less skilled or sloppy etc. Its human nature and that is why it has failed through out history. Then comes along guys like Marx Lenin Stalin Mao etc. and says oh what you need is a strong central leadership to ensure that everyone pulls their weight and of course they do this by force and of course when they have the power they take the lions share and distribute the crumbs to the workers.

It stifles creativity and thinking outside the box and as people get more desperate they resort to force to try and make i work but it only gets worse.

Freedom and liberty is the only answer my freind everyone reaps according to their merit! It has accounted for the freest most prosperous nation with the highest standard of living for the most people in the history of the world from 1789 to 1913 and beyond! Stick with proven methods not failed theories!

PS Did you know the American Pilgrims who came to America in 1620 first tried Communism as their first community in its pure form? long before Marx ever thought of it. Read of their experiences I think it will really give you some insight.

www.freerepublic.com...

The Mormons also tried a from of it in the 19th century...
edit on 12-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Redistribution of wealth is a myth when it comes to communism. There are the rich, and the less prosperous. The whole idea is that you get what you put into it!



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:47 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn
For those of you whom assumed. I am not american. I am Norwegian. Communism appeals to me because of the belief of the worker having ownership. Communism has never been seen in modern history. I disagree with the works of Marx, Lenin and Mao. I have read them all. The transition phase that they say is necessary has always failed. Once a human has absolute power (dictator), they will never "step down". It is human nature to keep whatever power one holds. I only believe in worker ownership. So much is misconceived, from anti-communist bigotry... I have heard so much of "if you do not want to work, you get the same as those that work." Where the hell does that thinking come from? In a true communist society, you only get what you put in. If you CHOOSE to not work, you get NOTHING. The workers only get what they produce. Is that not common sense? My favourite source of info is Johnny Cash. He grew up under communism in Dyess Arkansas. Read up on how he grew up and the way that they shared in their labor. The most successful places in America are that way because they practiced communism.
edit on 6/12/2012 by brukernavn because: I shall admit it... I misspelt Arkansas
edit on 6/12/2012 by brukernavn because: Damnit, I dit it again



True in Das Kaptital it mentioned that any form of communism does need a dictator at some point to organise stuff, and this is one problem with communism or any form of centralized government. One man is in control.

I believe the works of Marx and communism to a point but again Marxism hasn't really been put into practise neither has communism in its form of pure democracy, only dictatorship which is probably the furthest away you can get from communism.

It's funny reading threads from Americans who trying talk about communism when there only education is from that anti-communistic capitalist government.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:51 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


You very well could be correct. My main argument is that under true communism, you get out of it what you put into it. The harder workers would not feel slighted if they were rewarded for their efforts more than the lazy. You have a misconception that all earn the same. Your pay would be based on your production. I have worked in lumber mills, slteel mills, road oil, etc... I feel slighted under capitalism to see those that are lazy and shove the work onto me make the same as me. There is an output to labor. If we were paid based on what the output was, we would all be happier and have more pride in our work. Regardless, I work my ass off no matter what system I am under. I am of the belief that work ethic says everything about a person. I will work and sweat until I drop, for I value my work ethic above all else.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


You have bought into the bigotry of the West. Under communism, if you do nothing, you get nothing. The worker owns the means of production and profits from his work. If you do not work, unless you are incapable, you get nothing. Think outside of the box.

Ha det bra,
Josef


Exactly, another good point that people fail to understand.

They think socialism is a state system, and it's hand-outs. That is liberalism, not socialism. Liberalism has been around almost as long as socialism. Instead of worker ownership liberalism supports capitalism with a social safety net. That was what suddenly became "left-wing" and "socialism" post WWII, when the working class was sold the idea of class climbing, instead of worker ownership become middle class instead. It is not socialism, it's not even left-wing.

But ironically traditionally 'libertarianism' was another term for anarchism, but now is considered, at least in the US, as right wing.

This is how the true ideas of the left have been hidden from the people.

edit on 6/12/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:55 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


Redistribution of wealth is a myth when it comes to communism. There are the rich, and the less prosperous. The whole idea is that you get what you put into it!


No, that is free enterprise where hard work brings you the fruits of your labor. Communism is where you work hard only to have some govt bureaucrat tell you to share it with your komrades because they are sick and deserve it more. Then they will tell you where you can work, where you can live. Health rationing too. Rationing of everything. Because ultimately the communist system is based on centralized control of the means of production. So you can buy the lies of the propagandists that you will have joint ownership, but the whip of the bureaucrat leaders will always be cracked over your head.

The whole communist system is based on lies and propaganda. The Communist Manifesto is propagand. Marx was commissioned by the Rothschilds to write it.

Furthermore, google searches have turned up a number of these guys as Freemasons....Trotsky, Engels, Nietzsche. And sources also suggest that Marx himself was a member of a satanic church(Rothschilds were satanist too so what's new).

wakeupfromyourslumber.com...
www.angelfire.com...
freemasonry.bcy.ca...
community.beliefnet.com...

oh yah and the elimination of religion from the public arena defintiely came out of Marxian philosophy so don't let the Progressive Democrats fool you into thinking it's not communist.

As we have seen, from 1842 to 1848, the real voice behind Marx was Frederick Engels. Engels, like Marx, sought to EXCLUDE religion from public life AND education: "'All religious bodies WITHOUT EXCEPTION are to be treated BY THE STATE as private associations. They are NOT to receive support from public fluids OR exercise ANY influence over public education"' (Fisher, p.284).

www.angelfire.com...
edit on 12-6-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-6-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:58 AM
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Far more people have been killed, and are still being killed, directly because of capitalism, than any so called 'left-wing regime'.

They just have lots of excuses, and the government to take the blame.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 03:59 AM
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reply to post by brukernavn
 

It has never worked. Even a TRUE Communist System will have the same problems every other Communist System has had...HUMAN NATURE. Dictators For Life. Look at CHINA....it has made money by following the Business plans of Hong Kong.....not Communism. I doesn't work...It never will work.
Split Infinity



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:00 AM
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reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus
 


I truly wish to find some sort of, what is the English word, middle ground? with you. I feel a sort of kinship with you. I do agree with some of what you say, but I see a lot of it as capitalist propaganda. I honestly would love for you to prove me wrong. I truly want to find my way in this world, and so far, through my many leanings through life, communism seems t he best way to me.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:03 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK
Far more people have been killed, and are still being killed, directly because of capitalism, than any so called 'left-wing regime'.

They just have lots of excuses, and the government to take the blame.


Let's see... even naziism is right-wing, correct?
Good luck getting a capitalist to admit that. Ford, Rockefeller, IBM, and many other profited from eugenics and far right-wing nazi ideology. Hitler mentioned Ford in Mein Kampf, and nazis even trained in the US for what they did... But, that's another story...
edit on 6/12/2012 by brukernavn because: major grammatical error



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:05 AM
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Faen! Jeg gir opp. Vi er #ed, Anok.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:06 AM
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Few on ATS even know what capitalism, socialism, or communism even means. Most still think that foodstamps = socialism.



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by ANOK
 


Anok, I will answer you as an Amerikan would. You are ridiculous. How dare you imply that a worker has any rights whatsoever. Do you truly believe the ridicoulous, nazi ideology that a worker should get what he puts in? So ridiculous.




[sarcasm]There are no workers in America, they're all middle class on their way to capitalist ownership, and the billions they all deserve for saving the world from bad people[/sarcasm].

Well at least that's what some sheltered ATS members seem to think.




(MODS can I request a :shakes head: and a :contemptible smirk: emoticon please?)

edit on 6/12/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:11 AM
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reply to post by brukernavn
 





You very well could be correct. My main argument is that under true communism, you get out of it what you put into it. The harder workers would not feel slighted if they were rewarded for their efforts more than the lazy.


Ok how is that any different then a free market?



You have a misconception that all earn the same. Your pay would be based on your production. I have worked in lumber mills, slteel mills, road oil, etc... I feel slighted under capitalism to see those that are lazy and shove the work onto me make the same as me. There is an output to labor. If we were paid based on what the output was, we would all be happier and have more pride in our work. Regardless, I work my ass off no matter what system I am under. I am of the belief that work ethic says everything about a person. I will work and sweat until I drop, for I value my work ethic above all else


Ok so how does communism supposedly solve this problem? In true capitalism you are free to find another job that compensates you more in line with your output or start your own business in the field. How would communism offer a better solution then that and ensure your pay is commensurate with your output?



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:17 AM
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I've been enjoying this thread immensly!

Personally, I'll keep fighting for a smaller government, individuality, personal responsibility, and the freedom to do or be anything I damn well please.

Call it capitalism, americanism, cheese danish-ism.

Labels/definitions mean anything you want them to be.

That's what I'm looking for, though.

Call it "Beezzerism".



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

Ok how is that any different then a free market?


What is a free-market?

Is capitalism really 'free-market'?

I know you've been taught it is, but I doubt you've even questioned the claim?

Do you think a worker having what he produces taken to finance someone else's life 'free-market'? Do you realise that without the worker the capitalist is just a starving idiot with capital?

In a true free market all producers would be free to exchange the goods they produce, not be exploited to finance someone else.

"liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality" Mikhail Bakunin

(just a friendly reminder, socialism is workers common ownership of the means of production)

edit on 6/12/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2012 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK
Far more people have been killed, and are still being killed, directly because of capitalism, than any so called 'left-wing regime'.

They just have lots of excuses, and the government to take the blame.


Why don't you back that tripe up with some hard evidence?

Well um Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler come mind here oh how about Mao, Polpot, Edi Amen, Saddam, etc etc. you Might want to rethink this





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