Will Europe Help America In WW3? Should They?

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
reply to post by daaskapital

 

S*** Happens

That it does

First of all, I don't think staying neutral during WWII was anything to be particularly proud of - it showed either a spineless unwillingness to stand up to a bully or a desire to exploit the situation for gain - neither are particularly commendable in my book.

WWII was one of the few morally correct wars.

How we got to that situation is another discussion entirely and one for another time and place.

Secondly. there isn't going to be a third world war in the foreseeable future.
The days when whole nations would face off and fight other nations are over - if it ever get's to that stage again then the MAD scenario looms large and ominous.
The major nations will not face each like they did in the past - future wars will be fought by proxy or rogue nations or will be economical wars etc.

Thirdly, if there was to be a conventional WWIII then I would like to think that the UK would support which ever side was opposed to oppression etc.
Yes, the US has supported the UK before, but generally only when it has had to and other countries have forced it's hand.
I bear no malice to the American people and I recognise the US has a thankless task on the world stage, (the world would be a far less safe place without them), but that does not excuse the aggressiveness, excesses and at times selfish, bullying, inconsiderate nature of their foreign policy.

I think that if in the highly unlikely event that the USA itself was directly threatened then we would definately support them, if it was as a direct result of it's foreign policy then I'm not so sure.

reply to post by Germanicus
OK...lets start with post WWI War reparations that the U.S. told Europeans that they were virtually STARVING the German People...yet Europe wanted it's pound of flesh. The U.S. warned the Europeans that this would create a new German Nationalism and what happened? Hitler, Nazi's and WWII.
The U.S. after Japan surrendered and the U.S. was the only nation with Nukes...we asked our European Allies to form a Strong Coalition to counter the Soviet Unions plans to keep Poland behind the Iron Curtain...as well as the Soviets attempt to cut of West Berlin from the East as the whole city of Berlin was deep in Soviet Territory.
The U.S. should have NEVER ALLOWED THIS and a strong stance at that point would have kept Stalin from causing the creation of the Cold War.
The United States was at that time a 50 Million Plus Military with a Navy of incredible strength as well as having Nukes. Yet we followed the advice of our European Allies who helped create 46 years of cold War.

Bosnia, Czech, Macedonia, Poland, the Baltics, the list goes on and on. Even the single most important deployment that can be pointed at and said...THIS is where we won the Cold War...the Europeans were up in arms as they could never see the Big Picture. The Deployment of the Middle range PERSHING II Missile system was the steak in the Heart of the Soviet Union...that and Reagans refusal to abandon STAR WARS which was more capable than people were led to believe...but the Russian knew this and they took it seriously. The Pershing II's were Ultra-Accurate Solid Fueled Mid-Range Nuclear Missiles that could be launched so quickly that they were not only capable of hitting Troop Concetrations which were mobile but were able to target a Soviet SS-20...SS-24 and SS-25 Mobile Launching system before they would even know the Pershing II was on the way.

Right now...the U.S. is in it's Final Stages...as testing is over...of deployment of the FEL or FREE ELECTRON LASER. There will be a Nuclear Powered FEL aboard EVERY U.S. Carrier as well as Aegis CRUISER...all will have their own independent Nuclear Power Source. Discover Magazine has stated that a Nuclear Version of the FEL can burn a HOLE 1000 FEET DEEP THROUGH SOLID STEEL. Once this weapon is fully installed...I will watch the Bitching and Crying begin as our allies will want in on the Weapon System that will make Nuclear Weapons obsolete! Split Infinity

Having read the whole thread I get the impression this was just an excuse to bitch about Americans.

Quite a lot of complete bollocks posted here, from people of all points of view.

But what I would say is that some people want to get real and stop viewing China through rose tinted glasses.

Again, I have absolutely nothing against Chinese people at all.
But some people really want to study both their history and their culture.
As a general rule of thumb they can be, or should I say have been, pretty brutal in their treatment of both their own people and conquered nations not to say how they view non-Chinese as almost non-humans.
China are not this altruistic, all knowing, benevolent benefactor who just wants to help everyone else - they play the long game and have one primary goal; what is best for China - anyone and everyone else is completely irrelevant and expendable.

That's not meant as a slight or insult to the Chinese people or it's culture but it's directed at the elite who run the country and dictate policy - to even suggest or think for one minute that they are in any way less morally corrupt and self-advancing etc than the elites that run the USA, Europe etc displays a naivety of alarming proportions.

Given the choice between the USA and China I personally would take the USA every single time.

reply to post by Freeborn


That's not meant as a slight or insult to the Chinese people or it's culture but it's directed as the elite who run the country and dictate policy - to even suggest or think for one minute that they are in any way less morally corrupt and self-advancing etc than the elites that run the USA, Europe etc displays a naivety of alarming proportions.

Spot on, Would give you a thumbs up but can on my phone.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Having read the whole thread I get the impression this was just an excuse to bitch about Americans.

Quite a lot of complete bollocks posted here, from people of all points of view.

But what I would say is that some people want to get real and stop viewing China through rose tinted glasses.

Again, I have absolutely nothing against Chinese people at all.
But some people really want to study both their history and their culture.
As a general rule of thumb they can be, or should I say have been, pretty brutal in their treatment of both their own people and conquered nations not to say how they view non-Chinese as almost non-humans.
China are not this altruistic, all knowing, benevolent benefactor who just wants to help everyone else - they play the long game and have one primary goal; what is best for China - anyone and everyone else is completely irrelevant and expendable.

That's not meant as a slight or insult to the Chinese people or it's culture but it's directed at the elite who run the country and dictate policy - to even suggest or think for one minute that they are in any way less morally corrupt and self-advancing etc than the elites that run the USA, Europe etc displays a naivety of alarming proportions.

Given the choice between the USA and China I personally would take the USA every single time.

edit on 2/6/12 by Freeborn because: spelling

Agreed.

If World War III were to break out, the very first thing China would do, is knock the U.S out of the war. Then something will happen to Europe that will take them out of the war.. And guess what? Australia will have no support, we would be sitting ducks.. Completely cut off from the outside world. China wants our land, they want our precious resources, why? Because that would benefit their 'two billion' people so much. As soon as our allies are knocked out of the war, they will back stab Australia, and take over. It's guaranteed.

If you had a nation of 24 million people, with the most precious resources in the world, and your nation had 2 billion people wouldn't you screw their relations with them, and take their resources? Of course one would, it's only a nation of 24 million people.

reply to post by Germanicus


On an unrelated note, how do you make 1700 posts in less than a month? You're averaging around 60 posts a day Don't you have a Job? lol







unless this IS your Job!

reply to post by Nuker


I think you may have missed the point of my earlier thread - how will China 'knock the U.S out of the war'?

Nuke them?

Then the US would nuke China in retaliation and then hey presto in a matter of minutes, nuclear armageddon - it'd be curtains for all of us.
The Chinese know this, as do the Americans, Russians, French and Brits.

China may indeed have it's eyes on Australia both for it's natural resources and maybe a bit of lebensraum but it will be slightly more subtle in trying to gain it.

reply to post by Nuker


Chinese would be destroyed.Most of the american population would be dead with exception of the elite in underground cities.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Dembow
A superpower doesn't have to share anything with anyone. The US is far from perfect but with the firepower they have they could be doing a lot more damage and a lot more bullying, they aren't....

I don't have a dog in this fight and I avoid these types of threads like the plaque but, you've pointed out a very real and obvious fact that many simply choose to ignore.

Semper Fi

I was hoping to hear from our pro-hiroshima member

Will you be in favour of China nuking LA and New York when it comes down to it? To save lives I mean.

And what you are saying is that we should think ourselves lucky that America is not worse? You people never cease to amaze me. Is neoamerican an existing term? Or is that a Germanicusism?

edit- that is why you are my rival even though I have only come across you once. I read you defending Hiroshima and I knew why opinion on ATS is so warped. Heavy hitter members that defend things like hiroshima. What if its a US city? Still pro-hiroshima then?


edit- and what do you mean by saying you avoid thrads like these? ones that make you nervous you mean? You think America can stand alone? You think you deserve the Reserve Currency?

reply to post by Freeborn


In the Western world,only the elites will survive. China would be totally destroyed.A Good or large part of the russian population depending on how rapidly they move their citizens . Already Russian govt is encouraging citizens to live on the outskirts or move out of the metropolitans. A lot of civil defence bunkers for civilians are in construction by EMERCOM .Medvedvev is calling for restraint by the NATO as it adventures could start a full blown nuclear war.

Civil defence drills are on the rise in Moscow.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Germanicus

 

OK...lets start with post WWI War reparations that the U.S. told Europeans that they were virtually STARVING the German People...yet Europe wanted it's pound of flesh. The U.S. warned the Europeans that this would create a new German Nationalism and what happened? Hitler, Nazi's and WWII.
The U.S. after Japan surrendered and the U.S. was the only nation with Nukes...we asked our European Allies to form a Strong Coalition to counter the Soviet Unions plans to keep Poland behind the Iron Curtain...as well as the Soviets attempt to cut of West Berlin from the East as the whole city of Berlin was deep in Soviet Territory.
The U.S. should have NEVER ALLOWED THIS and a strong stance at that point would have kept Stalin from causing the creation of the Cold War.
The United States was at that time a 50 Million Plus Military with a Navy of incredible strength as well as having Nukes. Yet we followed the advice of our European Allies who helped create 46 years of cold War.

Bosnia, Czech, Macedonia, Poland, the Baltics, the list goes on and on. Even the single most important deployment that can be pointed at and said...THIS is where we won the Cold War...the Europeans were up in arms as they could never see the Big Picture. The Deployment of the Middle range PERSHING II Missile system was the steak in the Heart of the Soviet Union...that and Reagans refusal to abandon STAR WARS which was more capable than people were led to believe...but the Russian knew this and they took it seriously. The Pershing II's were Ultra-Accurate Solid Fueled Mid-Range Nuclear Missiles that could be launched so quickly that they were not only capable of hitting Troop Concetrations which were mobile but were able to target a Soviet SS-20...SS-24 and SS-25 Mobile Launching system before they would even know the Pershing II was on the way.

Right now...the U.S. is in it's Final Stages...as testing is over...of deployment of the FEL or FREE ELECTRON LASER. There will be a Nuclear Powered FEL aboard EVERY U.S. Carrier as well as Aegis CRUISER...all will have their own independent Nuclear Power Source. Discover Magazine has stated that a Nuclear Version of the FEL can burn a HOLE 1000 FEET DEEP THROUGH SOLID STEEL. Once this weapon is fully installed...I will watch the Bitching and Crying begin as our allies will want in on the Weapon System that will make Nuclear Weapons obsolete! Split Infinity

No no,Im in Australia. What mess did you clean up?

And I fail to see how any of that opinion makes you think Europe owes America. Europe is not a country btw. They are many proud nations. You think they all owe you? I fail to see what you are getting at with that ramble as well. The list goes on and on? You are saying your opinion is that you followed the advice of European allies and that made a mess? What did you clean up again?

You read a military magazine or something dont you? Very clever repeating those bits of knowledge. But could you tell me what mess you cleaned up? And what mess of Australias?

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
reply to post by daaskapital

 

It's obvious you hate Americans by your threads

"Deny Ignorance - A term which Americans find hard to understand"

"The "Anti-American" and moderating Situation."

"America and Britain screwed Australia and its bid for Nuclear Weapons! (video)"

"I am sick off all your arrogance! Particularly of the Americans."

"Medal of Honour: Warfighter - Finally some recognition to SF which aren't American!"

"Most Americans Are Ignorant To Other Cultures. AND I'M SICK OFF IT!"

"US Government blocked my ATS Thread!!!"

"US planned to fire missile at Australia, secret Cabinet papers from 1980s reveal"

"Proof That The Average American is ignorant to World and National events!"

And My Personal Favorite....

"Assassin's Creed 3 Set In The American Revolution - NOOOOOOOO"

Thou doth protest too much methinks

I'm just sayin' , Are you a Closet American?... I mean, not that there's anything wrong with that sort of thing.

edit on 2-6-2012 by EyesWideShut because: (no reason given)

Looks like you have a stalker daas.

I agree and many agree that Americans are arrogant and ignorant. Pretty much all of Europe does. Watch the clip I posted.
It is not 'anti american', that is just something Americans say to deflect constructive criticism.

Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
reply to post by Freeborn

 

In the Western world,only the elites will survive. China would be totally destroyed.A Good or large part of the russian population depending on how rapidly they move their citizens . Already Russian govt is encouraging citizens to live on the outskirts or move out of the metropolitans. A lot of civil defence bunkers for civilians are in construction by EMERCOM .Medvedvev is calling for restraint by the NATO as it adventures could start a full blown nuclear war.

Civil defence drills are on the rise in Moscow.

I agree. I want no part of it.

I can see New York and LA being nuked to save lives.

If that happens,if New York and LA are hit by nukes we can only blame the cold people who have defended the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

They will be to blame. Not the Chinese.

It might be seem clever and funny for some kinds of people to put forward outrageous points of view and opinion until the shoe is on the other foot.

We can all blame the defenders of Hiroshima and Nagasaki if any American city is nuked in the future.We should all stop listening to these monsters. We never should have listened to them. I never did. How can you defend Hiroshima? Honestly. You should go to jail for saying something like that. The shoe may be on the other foot soon though. Lets see how these Hiroshima defenders like it when their own cities get nuked. Lets hear them defend the enemy and say it saved lives.

Soon people will see themselves for what they really are.

edit- funny how you cant say a bad word about America without being anti-american yet the big hitter members actually are pro-hiroshima. How can people be able to say that? Mention Hitlers name and you are a nazi thought criminal, yet if you say you are Pro-Hiroshima you are some kind of swell fella?

reply to post by Germanicus


Not wanting to sound contrary or anything but have you really studied recent history with a critical and independant viewpoint?

If you had you would have realised that not so long ago relations between the old USSR, China, USA, UK and France were far, far worse than they are today.
People lived with the nuclear threat on a daily basis.
And guess what, none of them bombed each other.
Do you know why?
Because they knew that if they were to insitgate a nuclear war it meant the virtual destruction of mankind and earth being made more or less uninhabitable for goodness knows how long.

Now what makes you think they are going to nuke each other now, especially when they are all in each other's pockets making a fortune and dividing up the world between themselves?

They are NOT going to nuke each other.

I know you are far from stupid and I think you've quckly become a great asset to ATS by challenging the accepted norm etc and stimulating much need debate on a lot of subjects....but this is just not going to happen and it seems to me as if on this occassion you are using an imaginarly and unlikely scenario to vent some anti-US spleen.

The title of your thread is relevant and pertinent, a lot of the subsequent reasoning and posting, certainly not just by you alone, has been less so and at times has even displayed a degree of paranoia.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Germanicus

 

Not wanting to sound contrary or anything but have you really studied recent history with a critical and independant viewpoint?

If you had you would have realised that not so long ago relations between the old USSR, China, USA, UK and France were far, far worse than they are today.
People lived with the nuclear threat on a daily basis.
And guess what, none of them bombed each other.
Do you know why?
Because they knew that if they were the one to insitgate a nuclear war it meant the virtual destruction of mankind and earth being made more or less uninhabitable for goodness knows how long.

Now what makes you think they are going to nuke each other now, especially when they are all in each other's pockets making a fortune and dividing up the world between themselves?

They are NOT going to nuke each other.

I know you are far from stupid and I think you've quckly become a great asset to ATS by challenging the accepted norm etc and stimulating much need debate on a lot of subjects....but this is just not going to happen and it seems to me as if on this occassion you are using an imaginarly and unlikely scenario to vent some anti-US spleen.

The title of your thread is relevant and pertinent, a lot of the subsequent reasoning and posting, certainly not just by you alone, has been less so and at times has even displayed a degree of paranoia.

If you want to sound contrary dont say that you dont.

No need for rude emphisis either.

No need to be patronizing.

I disagree strongly with your opinion and it is nothing more than that. Opinion

What makes you so smart genius? Why is your opinion correct? Because you are old? Old Skool Anarchist?
I didnt read you speaking out of the both sides of your mouth bs at the bottom til then. keep that stuff. You remind me of an obnoxious American. ( not all Americans are obnoxious ).


I could not disagree more with your assesment of relations either. I think you fail to read between the lines. China is ready. Everyone hates America,there is a Rebel group of countries that extends beyond the BRICS. You are in denial because you are a Brit and you know you guys are screwed too. You have no hope. Australia actually does with the right leadership.

reply to post by Germanicus


I am not going to get into an argument over WWII.

To address your original question would Europe be allied with America against China? At the moment China is considered a friend. I agree with another poster on here, China has hidden agendas and I personalty do not trust her.

She has more to fear from her own people, than America and presently she is more a threat to Russia, than the US.

I don't see a war with China on our horizon in my lifetime. If such a war would occur Europe is closer to China and likely to go first, should China become aggressive. If China goes to war any occidental nation will likely be a target. I do not know under those circumstances what my government would choose to do.

Additionally some of your statements seemed to imply that the US would need Europe as an ally, my answer to that is, I don't think so.

Why do you think the next big war wont be started by europe? the rest have?

The war against the middle east is older than the USA. So i think we will be at the heart of it.

What if the usa is just europes meat shield?

Originally posted by Iamschist
reply to post by Germanicus

 

I am not going to get into an argument over WWII.

To address your original question would Europe be allied with America against China? At the moment China is considered a friend. I agree with another poster on here, China has hidden agendas and I personalty do not trust her.

She has more to fear from her own people, than America and presently she is more a threat to Russia, than the US.

I don't see a war with China on our horizon in my lifetime. If such a war would occur Europe is closer to China and likely to go first, should China become aggressive. If China goes to war any occidental nation will likely be a target. I do not know under those circumstances what my government would choose to do.

Additionally some of your statements seemed to imply that the US would need Europe as an ally, my answer to that is, I don't think so.

Did you just say that China is more of a threat to Russia ?
And three people agree? already? ATS (:

The war will be different. Look at Hitler blitzkrieg. It was new. It kicked ass.

Think how WW2 finished up. Dresden,Hiroshima,Nagasaki. And then we get monsters defending these actions. People have put it down in history as something that saved lives. It makes me sick.

So that is what we have to look forward to. China need not fear striking America. They can write their own history just like America has. Why would you mess around? Nuke the East and West coast. New York, LA. What the heck is left? They would be broken.

We can blame those that defended Dresden,Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And did I read that wrong or did you really say China is a threat to Russia?

Originally posted by ThePeopleParty
Why do you think the next big war wont be started by europe? the rest have?

The war against the middle east is older than the USA. So i think we will be at the heart of it.

What if the usa is just europes meat shield?

edit on 2-6-2012 by ThePeopleParty because: (no reason given)

It will be about America. They will have no claim to the title of superpower and thus will lose Reserve Currency status. I dont think many people see how important holding the Reserve Currency is. Its key. The centre of the death star. America will lose it without war,its only a matter of time. But we know America. They are not just going to stop acting like they own the world even though they are no longer the top country. They will use their Military to pay their debt.

Like I said,America needs China. Not the other way around. The GFC actually helped China last time in many ways. The forming of the BRICS Bank is a firewall against the next GFC. The whole Western World will be a mess very soon ( see the stock market today? Employment figures? US I mean ) but the BRICS are prepared. America is not just goling to start acting like a regular country. They have a superiority complex. They will make war.

China will overtake the US as the worlds largest economy in just a few short years. That is fact. China has an economy based on value. America has a bloated economy consisting of a nation of overpaid do-nothing tullips. America is smokes and mirrors. Corporatists ripping off the world with scams from their corporations based in delaware. The economy is diseased tullips if you know what I mean. America went crazy with tullip mania. And ,America has the luxury of having the Reserve Currency. Its all about oil. If you look into it. Anyway, Nations are already buying Oil in different currencies. People are starting to go around America. America is not feared anymore. It is resented because we all know they have failed and they need to stand down. They are an utter mess. Only trouble is they have that massive military. They will not be able to pay to maintain it soon.And like I said,just a few short years until China takes over as largest economy. What would happen then? Wouls America wait to find out? America is screwed and they know it. The only way out is war. And we all know they will start it.