Cops gun down man for legally carrying firearm... WND

Originally posted by Romekje
reply to post by Furbs

 

According to eye witness reports the cop shouted numerous conflicting orders in quick succession and started shooting right after. This was (yet another) unlawful shooting by USA police.

Won't be long before you indeed get shot for speeding, or jaywalking.

I clearly remember a thread about a KID being shot in the back because he ran from the police.. an UNARMED kid who was about 12 years old.

Trigger happy idiots shouldnt be in the police force, and i don't care how you try to twist and turn this case in order to justify it.

No matter how many times you attest to it being unlawful, it was not deemed so by a juried coroners inquest, and no crime has ever been tried nor any of the police involved implicated in any wrongdoing.

There seem to be conflicting reports as to what was said, who said it, why it was said, or how it was handled, but the facts remain clear.

An armed trespasser was shot and killed by police.

As usual,very few have bothered to do anything besides read the little blurb the Op posted and then go on an anti-police rant. Very popular around here,I know, but still dissapointing.There is much more to this story than is reported in the article.You can read statements made by numerous eye witnesses,anything from foreign exchange students to tourists to other store employee's. If you did that, you'd realize this is most likely a justified shooting. I say most likely because I wasn't there, so I can't say for sure. Unless YOU were there, you don't know either.

I don't like the amount of power police are given, and there are many,many cases of police abusing their powers.We need to call them on it and try to make sure they are held accountable, but screaming bloody murder at every opportunity,with no effort made to verify facts, makes you look like a bunch of idiots. There are more than enough real cases of corruption and abuse of power that need to be to be brought to light.
The family dropped the case.Do a little research,figure out who his father was,and tell me if you think this guy would have just dropped the case if he thought his son was totally innocent.Would you?

reply to post by DrMattMaddix


This makes me so angry, and it is proof that what kills is fear and fear of fear.

How many deaths like this result as a consequence of corroded psychology?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


I have no remorse for you if your shot by a criminal because the police weren't there to defend you. Your statement reeks of ignorance.

Originally posted by stanguilles7
He was asked to leave private property by an employee, and didnt: Trespassing.

He was confronted by police, and refused to comply. Also illegal. They know him to be armed, and he is not compliant.

Ironic thing is in NV it is legal to carry an UNconcealed gun without a permit. But his was concealed, and in violation of state law.

edit on 2-6-2012 by stanguilles7 because: (no reason given)

Why wasn't he tased then? Punishment that does not fit the crime is aggression.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
WHY DO YOU NEED A GUN TO GO SHOPPING AT COSTCO????

You don't need one but it is your constitutional right (depending on the State with or without a permit) to do so. I don't need to have a 6000.00 Rolex but that doesn't mean I can't have one.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Plus...he brought a gun into a privately owned store that had a policy against people bringing in firearms.

Here is a pro-tip for you - Costco "policy" doesn't trump State or Federal law. Seems in this case they asked him to leave and he was in the process of doing so. Why did they call the police at all?

The laws regarding a private company or organization being able to disallow the possession of firearms on their premises varies State to State as well as the penalty for disregarding the sign.

For example I live in Missouri (bless her) and while a business can post a sign limiting an individual’s right to carry a firearm on the premises there are specific rules for all parties involved.

1: In MO, the signs are supposed to be posted in "a conspicuous location" and be of a given size (11x14", letters one inch in size). If the signs don't meet the rules - you can just walk on in and claim they were invalid. It's like a yellow circular stop sign. No judge will convict you for not stopping for one.

I see all kinds of signs every day and I ignore them - why because the business owner has failed to follow the law by not making/placing the signs IAW the law. This, like any other defense under the law gives you (the person with the CCW license) the high ground. I have seen signs horribly misspelled, posted on yellow sticky notes in handwriting on the cash register (you are already done WTF?) that I'd need my +1.75 reading glasses to see. I've seen them so small and low on the door my dog would be at eye level to read them.

2: What can a business owner do if they happen to notice you are carrying a weapon on premises (You may need a new lesson about the concept of concealed if they do.) even if they have the legal sign?

Ask you nicely to leave.... That is it.

If they over react and call the cops as you are in the process of leaving - you can sue and win (probably a lot of money) because they have to ask you to leave before they can escalate to law enforcement intervention.

If you don't leave or argue; however, and they have to call the cops to make you leave you can get a ticket - 100.00 fine for trespassing. This incidentally is the exact same crime and fine if they ask you to leave for being rude, smelly, or ugly. If you get more than 3 of these "tickets" in a two year period you lose your license to carry.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Of course ATS people are going to freak out because there are so many gun lovers here....but this man died because he made some stupid decisions...beginning with bringing a gun into COSTCO and then refusing to leave when they asked him to.

We don't know how conspicuous the signs are? He could have missed it. I agree he should have just said sorry I must have missed the signs then left right away. Argument will get you nowhere. I was once and only once asked to leave a business for having a firearm. I reached for something high on the shelf at Wal-Mart and I guess it scared some other customer who told the management. He came to me and explained that it made one of the customers scared. I said sorry and he walked me out.

Once outside I explained to him that IAW Missouri law his store was not marked "no firearms" with either a legal sign or some alternate version and that under the law (showed him my CCW) indicated I could carry in his store according to the law. I explained that if they were going to post "no-firearms" restrictions he would lose my business and that of many others who carry in Missouri. He apologized for the trouble and after exchanging info said he'd get some decisions from legal.

I got a call 3 days later from a regional legal rep indicating that they were extremely sorry for the confusion and that they would have store manager training on how to better handle these type situations. I got a 50.00 gift card for my trouble and our local Wal-Mart has no signs to this day.

It’s all in how you handle it...don't challenge someone’s knowledge or authority in front of their employees or subordinates - that's simply human relations 101. It can never go well after a person is made to feel uninformed or dressed down publicly.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Note to any gun lovers...you don't need a freaking gun to go grocery shopping...for christs sake.

Note to lefty gun haters - if I can carry a weapon for 24 years in the military FOR America; I should be able to carry one IN America. And that includes to the grocery store if I so choose.

reply to post by Golf66

You don't need one but it is your constitutional right (depending on the State with or without a permit) to do so. I don't need to have a 6000.00 Rolex but that doesn't mean I can't have one.

No one here is saying you can't have a gun, what they are saying is, use some judgement where you choose to carry your firearm. A responsible gun owner would know this.

Here is a pro-tip for you - Costco "policy" doesn't trump State or Federal law. Seems in this case they asked him to leave and he was in the process of doing so. Why did they call the police at all?

Here's a pro-tip for you, police do not have transporters. They cannot arrive instantly on the scene once called. It takes time for police to receive a dispatch, respond, and arrive on the scene. So, exactly how long does it take one to leave private property?

If you don't leave or argue; however, and they have to call the cops to make you leave you can get a ticket - 100.00 fine for trespassing. This incidentally is the exact same crime and fine if they ask you to leave for being rude, smelly, or ugly. If you get more than 3 of these "tickets" in a two year period you lose your license to carry.

Exactly how long should it take one to leave private property once asked? Obviously this guy took his sweet time about it, because according to the article he was at the entry when police arrived and confronted him. So, tell me again about leaving private property once asked.

Note to lefty gun haters - if I can carry a weapon for 24 years in the military FOR America; I should be able to carry one IN America. And that includes to the grocery store if I so choose.

Interesting, so, does your local grocery store have a lot of violent vegetables that warrant the need for firearms? Perhaps they have a shoot and dress butcher in the back and you pick out your own cow. Perhaps your concern is with aggressive breakfast cereals.

As a person who has owned several firearms in my lifetime, I have to say I am truly concerned about the juvenile attitude towards firearm ownership shown in this thread.

Firearms are not toys. Firearms are not a all access pass to act like a douchebag. Firearms are not a fashion accessory. They are a weapon. One that can potentially be deadly if in the wrong hands, for instance in the hands of idiots who feel that a trip to the grocery store warrants small arms. Or morons who think that private property means nothing if you have more firepower than the people with authority over that private property.

I believe that CCW laws, and open carry laws are a good thing. I believe that people SHOULD have the right to keep and bear arms. I don't however think that right gives them the obligation to act like nincompoops. If you are asked to leave private property, and you hang around long enough that the police actually arrive and you aren't long gone, there's something seriously wrong with you.

When the police arrive, and you are still there, the correct way to handle the situation where everyone is armed is to be very very passive. Especially when the police know your armed. It's time to play it real cool and calmly obey every order given by the police till the situation is straightened out. It's not time to argue or "be a man" it's time to listen and shut your mouth.

This advice will keep you alive. Cops don't generally want to go shooting people. Believe me, I mouth off to police as a general rule. And it's a fine line between being a mouthy A hole that the police can't do anything about and being a slab of meat on a coroner's table. It's all how you handle it. And this guy didn't handle it correctly, and he got himself a lead sandwich.

i lived in vegas for 3 years as of 5 months ago, and i have seen people carrying their guns around, and in the local albertsons every now and then and i literally never took a second glance because i know its legal in nevada. hell, in henderson my friends gf got a handgun with NO background check at all. apparently its some city difference between henderson and other cities but i never looked more into it. point being, whether its the locals, the ease of getting guns, the huge billboard on the strip telling you to go shoot fully automatic guns down tropicana or the spots in the desert where tens of thousands of shells lay from people like us going out and shooting and enjoying a saturday, its kinda odd the cop acted like an afraid little 6 year old in that situation. im sure him, and people he know are most likely into the gun scene there, and know people can legally carry.

most of the people i saw were just like that guy, early to mid thirty white males. i mean, at the end of the day, its legal there, and for all i know, dude might be a cop. most psychos arent going to walk into a costcos with their girlfriend with a handgun in holster if they were looking to kill a bunch of randoms. i hate humans so much. use your brain, but lvpd can suck it, both of my encounters with them have been horrible. one time coming from the strip on my bicycle and cutting through unlv i was pulled over on harmon around 10pm, was told it was because i didnt have lights on my bike. okay cool, im from m.d and my bad, then he asked if i had drugs or weapons on me, told me to put my hands on the hood, patted me down, back up came, they kicked it a little while i stayed with my hands on the car like a criminal, 45 minutes later i was let go with a warning to make sure to get lights for my bicycle and i was literally 80 yards from my apt. second encounter was a jay walking where although the light didnt say walk, we still had teh green,and there was no one on the road accept this motocop and even though we were very polite and understanding regardless of how dumb it was, he was actually trying to provoke us into a verbal confrontation. i think most of those guys are most likely just bored, like some of the bored wanna be cops that work at the hotels. its just so silly

sorry, rant. ugh

edit: im not in story telling mood right now, but just to add a little, on the second story, it was 2am at a bar right across from unlv, and by no one, i mean there was no one on the road but him, and he was at a red light waiting to go. we had already crossed the road right infront of in n out by the time the light turned red for him to actually pull off to say hey, and pull us over. eh

Pigs.

I have never met a cop that didn't have some kind of authority issues (perhaps because I grew up on the flip side of the law, I dunno), but I know there are some good cops out there, and for you, I give respect.

In fact, I'd go as far to say I respect normal police more than the military. The good ones, I mean. See, police are a bit less likely to be forced to kill people, be given clearance to kill whoever they please at will, and rape whatever brown people they can find.

But it's cops like that that make me physically sick. A cop once raised his flashlight to me when I was eleven years old, gesturing that he was about to hit me because I wouldn't get back into my stepmother's car when he told me to (when the situation that caused the police to be called in the first place was happening up the street, nowhere near where my stepmother's car was parked). But, I know there are police that are better than that, because his partner was calling him off, and actually getting upset because of the way he was acting.

Point being--People best suited with power are the ones who never sought it.

That pig needs to be locked up.

Originally posted by neo96
The store was violating his constitutional right to carry does not matter they have no right to discriminate,because of irrational fears, and that guy is dead because of some half wit who does not understand what CCW is.

He should be alive right now, and he isn't.

As such a hardcore proponent of the Constitution you should understand that private property owners can restrict weapons from people. Just like you can ask someone to leave your property if they are carrying a weapon and you find out. Where we agree though is that this is an overreaction where groups of people carrying irrational fears killed someone in cold blood. It's telling that just because one officer shoots they all start shooting. Its also telling that 199 out of 200 police shooting have been declared justified. Justified because of what? A lawfully concealed firearm? I see more police officers yell at people then people yelling at police officers. Yelling should not immediately equate to a threat of life.

Originally posted by imherejusttoread

Originally posted by stanguilles7
He was asked to leave private property by an employee, and didnt: Trespassing.

He was confronted by police, and refused to comply. Also illegal. They know him to be armed, and he is not compliant.

Ironic thing is in NV it is legal to carry an UNconcealed gun without a permit. But his was concealed, and in violation of state law.

edit on 2-6-2012 by stanguilles7 because: (no reason given)

Why wasn't he tased then? Punishment that does not fit the crime is aggression.

Research the issue a bit more. (hint, this happened two years ago, and WND is a CRAP SOURCE

This guy drew his gun on cops.

www.lasvegassun.com...

www.lasvegassun.com...

www.lasvegassun.com...

This is so @#*%@ wrong on so many levels!
This onion needs to be peeled back, each layer is going to bring tears to our eyes. But its the truth of the system, and why I NEVER call the cops. I deal with my own. But what to do, when the cops are called on YOU.

That report, based on irrational fear, and perhaps some personal envy, triggered events which quickly spiraled out of control. It seems that the fear factor was taken up a notch with each description of the story to the point that responding officers believed they were going into a violent hostage situation with a heavily armed and dangerous Green Beret

Sometimes I feel like cops are in that mind set all of the time. Which I hate to do it, but I have to side with cops on the fact they never know when someone is going to try to kill them. Going into it. But the Cops job is to assess what is going before they make such large jumps in reaction.
Something does not smell right..
I will research this further.

reply to post by DrMattMaddix

Geez. Unless he was stealing the gun from Costco (sporting guns dept but I dont think they sell them) then why was the Loss Prevention Officer even involved since he was leaving the store and was obviously not robbing it?
This could happen on the street with those who carry also....caveat carry persons.

reply to post by benrl


I agree about the fact he shouldnt' have been carrying if there was a policy that said he couldn't. I'm not sure though, but in most states there has to be a sign outside that says no firearms. If a person is Concealed carrying and there is no sign the carrying party can carry into the location, thats kansas, colorado, and texas as far as I know but I'm pretty sure that it applies in most states. I would expect a trained military veteran to obey a sign if there was one.

Still though, never shopping at Costco again.

OMG!!

Im getting sick of the frigging security cameras inexplicably "malfunctioning" every damn time a cop shoots somebody. I mean, this is really starting to piss me off.

This is just one of MANY cases where an innocent person was shot by police for no other reason than just plain cowardice, and the damn cameras, for some damn reason, dont work. I'll bet ya that the cameras never have, nor ever will malfunction again.



It doesn't happen too often, but this story really put me into a bad mood.

Killin in the name of.....

reply to post by noodlewrangler


Nebraska as well. Yea, Im pretty sure that damn near every state. If there isn't a "No Carry" sign on the establishment, then it's legal. That's the only way any legal carrier can know for sure whether they are allowed to carry.

Even in Nebraska its state law that you cant carry in any bank. But, the banks still have to put the sign up to comply as well.

Originally posted by Chickensalad
OMG!!

Im getting sick of the frigging security cameras inexplicably "malfunctioning" every damn time a cop shoots somebody. I mean, this is really starting to piss me off.

This is just one of MANY cases where an innocent person was shot by police for no other reason than just plain cowardice, and the damn cameras, for some damn reason, dont work. I'll bet ya that the cameras never have, nor ever will malfunction again.



It doesn't happen too often, but this story really put me into a bad mood.

Killin in the name of.....

The cameras had been out for days, and they have the paper trail to back it up, man. The links to the stories are all over the thread. Read a few of them.

Originally posted by Chickensalad
reply to post by noodlewrangler

 

Nebraska as well. Yea, Im pretty sure that damn near every state. If there isn't a "No Carry" sign on the establishment, then it's legal. That's the only way any legal carrier can know for sure whether they are allowed to carry.

Even in Nebraska its state law that you cant carry in any bank. But, the banks still have to put the sign up to comply as well.

You sign a contract with the store stating that you are aware that you are not able to carry a gun on the property before you are even given a membership.

Typical WND drivel, rather than responding with "raised voices and obvious frustration ", a reasonable person would have recognized he was on private property and any rights he had to carry a gun were secondary to the property owners rights, apologized, immediately exited the building and left the gun in his car and returned to the store if he felt it was safe to enter the Costco unarmed or just gone home and locked himself in his paranoid little hovel.