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Kelly Thomas Video Finally Released

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posted on May, 9 2012 @ 07:16 AM
Here is the thing, some have said they get the vagrancy thing, that the police would want to take him in, but not the beating and murder.

I don't understand the vagrancy thing myself. This is how mentally ill people are treated???? They should be in subsidized housing on disabilities with care workers, taking them shopping and checking on them and occasional stints in the hospital when they go off meds. And any society that does otherwise should lose its sovereignity for its not capable of managing its country or assets but is committing crimes against humanity.

That is the least/minimum of the equality that should be in place for all people, in reality he should be assisted to live in abundance like everyone else should be living.
edit on 9-5-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 08:24 AM
I know there are still good police officers out there, risking their lives to do the right thing. But more and more I'm seeing the motto change from "serve and protect" to "un-nerve and convict." Police are just as fallible as anyone else, and I get that, but those in charge of the physical, social, and spiritual well-being of others should be held to a higher standard of conduct. Politicians, police, physicians, clergy/religious leaders should all be held to a higher standard...and punitively dealt with when they fail. But they are rarely punished. Take the John T. Williams case in Seattle where a police officer kills a woodcarver because, get this, he was carrying a block of wood and a carving knife. John T. Willams- ICTMN All sorts of excuses were made as to why this man was shot to death...try some excuse making the next time you run a red light or go 5mph over the speed limit and see how far that gets you.

Nothing will change until we the people start holding these drunk-on-power thugs accountable.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 08:41 AM

Originally posted by The_Phantom

Originally posted by popsmayhem

Originally posted by The_Phantom
Blame the government if you long as you don't go after Kelly's dad.
edit on 8-5-2012 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)

The guys dad did not have enough
sense to help his son atleast get

I don't know all the government's rules for food stamps...if for some reason living on the street means you don't have access to food stamps, would you suggest that the role of this type of assistance is expanded?
edit on 8-5-2012 by The_Phantom because: (no reason given)

To begin with there are out of work people, and a need for really decent (I don't like ugly poverty dwellings being built and see a real need for half women and half men in all decision making, and because all things should have both beauty AND function), Affordable housing, more than is needed. Food stamps are not really something I understand, the US system is a little odd. What should be done, is if you're disabled, especially mentally, you have service providers and assistant living, so that you have above the poverty level income, subsidized housing (that is it costs with utilities 1/3 or less of your income, its usually 1/3). The workers take you to view the townhouses or homes, and usually handle helping you with ALL appointments, ALL paper work, ALL shopping. There are different categories, there were two schizophrenics I know that were in different categories, one was chronic, so she had complete assistance, to live in her own place, but when things got out of "balance", she would spend a few weeks to a month getting her medicines adjusted. The other woman is a writer, and much luckier, in that she is accute, not chronic, so the meds work. She would probably eliminate the need for them fully in or part by high levels of nutrients, such as B3 and B6 and C, and a few others, which has been shown to work. Margo Kidder is an example of an actress that has gotten rid of meds with nutrients.

The system shouldn't be one of just food stamps and homelessness. But even here, in BC, the government closed faciilities and they ended on the streets, so it needs alot more workers and housing.

Of course the dark hats probably don't like the idea of housing being assigned them, because once they have a legal address, then they have the full right to services, there simply is not enough people awake, and concerned and working for a good just system.

Even though the BC government conducted studies that showed the cost of a single homeless person to society and tax dollars is very HIGH, and having housing and services would be the cheaper way to go. Of course our Country has medical services, you can't just leave them to die, so all costs included would be, medical, legal, and there is even a cost to the local businesses.

Housing, and assistance is what is needed. Mentally ill people go off meds frequently.

The Families of mentally ill, especially if the person is chronic, and not "normalized" with medication, is not able to house them, most don't have the money to provide their own living and another household, most people are quite challenged financially themselves, and they can't function with this level of stress and dsynfunction. In the case I know of with the chronic patient, she goes off medicine frquently and yells and screams and her family nearly had a nervous breakdown being subject to this when they tried to provide a suite for her.

This is common, something like 1/100, do the math. There has to be social just housing and decent living afforded to all people, and some of these conditions are extreme enough to need trained staff and personal, or assited living, and would prohibit the normal functioning and therefore independence, (job, housing, schooling) of the family, in ohter words these conditions are very challenging to be around.

Years ago, when a friend became a nurse, I was considering psychiatric nursing, but realized I didn't have the nerves for it either, though a lot of compassion for both the individuals and their families.

I've thought the son possibly found his father too authorative, being a law enforcer himself. Its even possible this was done to get to the Father.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 08:47 AM
In short, families enduring mental illness, especially schizophrenia, if its chronic, go through extreme stress themselves, and often need counseling as was the case of my friends family, just to deal with it, and she tried to help alot too even at one providing a suite for years. Its a really hard situation on them, way over their heads.

There are many other complications too. For the woman who was in the suite, her family couldnt bear it, for the meds didn't work, she was chronic, and also she had rights until she was a danger to herself or others to frequently go off them, and did. But they were finally able to get help more or less force when she started taking off, in the middle of the night. And when finally off relying on the family and hooked into services, such as assisted living, she has much less freedom in the meds she takes, chronic patients cannot be without meds, they would spend time screaming and creating a nightmare in any apartment, unable to live in society. But she still lives with dignity and semi freedom, not instutionalized. Assisted living.

A very close friend went through that with her mom.

In any case the family did everything they could to the point of completely breaking down themselves, and this was something that takes a medical team and was over their heads.

I really worry about the so called SHTF scenario, for everything I think about big pharmaceuticals, some medicines are very much needed.

Edit to add: I'm going to share a little more, my friend went through, because you hear alot of misinformation about schizophrenia on the forums, so most don't seem to know what it is like. Chronic, in any case, my friend was badly bruised being shoved out of the way, prior one hospitalization of her mother, due to her mother seeing Giant Spiders in the living room, and she thought she was saving her daughter. She was a lovely person in her own right, watched the news and kept up on current events, but she lived in two worlds permanently, and one was like a hellzone. You can't even imagine what it does to a family, my friend spent years trying to have her mother helped in the best way for her, since she was also extremely paranoid and didn't trust any doctors or medicines or helpers. It greatly impacted her own functioning and employment, keeping above water, not to mention needing counseling for the stress herself.

I have a lot of sympathy for the family in this situation.
edit on 9-5-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 09:15 AM

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
he's getting a beating.

What percentage of officers would you say think this way?

What percentage of PEOPLE think this way?

I guess I didn't phrase the question correctly. What percentage of cops would you say think this way? I'm not asking about the vigilante dad who assaulted a photographer. I'm talking about a policeperson who simply has a job to do which specifically excludes being judge and corrections.
edit on 9-5-2012 by gentledissident because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 09:25 AM
By the way , there was a thread on homeless people being targetted, murdered in the night often by youths even.

I suspect they are doing so, on orders, black ops, that kind of thing.

Because if you don't pay for a just society, and cut services, then you pay through your teeth, far greater amounts, (that study has been done), it costs a bundle to be heartless, so the PTB that decided to introduce this heartless experiment obviously fund mercenaries to dispose of a certain of homeless too, that is my opinion on this. That this is business as usual for the SS. And not to say all police are like this, a certain percentage. Not to mention youth groups, gangs, occultists, etc, who are in my opinion again, more Cia formed or backed. This is a part of saving societal costs without services because homelessness has a hefty medical and policing bill.

This kind of thing:

Its part and parcel of not providing services to try and reduce costs in a heartless society. Because being heartless costs far more than housing and food and subsidized living.
Seattle link talking about housing least expensive way of dealing with this.

BC study showing the billion dollar price tag of homelessness.

edit on 9-5-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 09:38 AM
All I can say it is pretty brutal. Do cops not go through training. Two big cops can't subdue a skinning homeless guy with ease. If that first cop had not been such a prick things would have not have happened that way. Then it takes another two cop to pile on and tazer him and ask him to turn over.I don't think you can do both. where is their martial art training I thought it was mandatory. Bouncers at a bar can do a better job controlling this guy. They seem to take a really aggressive attitude to everything instead of assessing the situation and weighing the options like hey this guy is homeless maybe he is not all there mentally and talk to him in a different manner.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 09:59 AM
reply to post by silo13

Thank you for bringing this one glaring fact back to the forefront; you beat me to it.

Thomas was mentally ill and was not unknown to the local PD as such from what I understand. He was also known, by all accounts to have been a non-violent person who when confronted would choose to leave instead of being part of a confrontation. That is exactly what he tried to do during this event.

I do not wish harm on anyone. But I do expect justice for cold blooded murder, especially committed by those who are allegedly sworn to protect, thus being held to a higher standard. These cops need to lose their jobs and pensions, charged, convicted and incarcerated the same as any other citizen committing a similar crime. They lost their "special" status the second they started to beat a peaceful mentally ill man to death.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 10:11 AM

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

Originally posted by Nucleardiver

Originally posted by EyesWideShut

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
There ARE some people that need a sidewalk shampoo

It's sad that LEO can't just do their job. LEO is not judge, jury, and executioner. They should not have an opinion of the person they are bringing in. That is for the 2nd step in the legal system, the courts.
edit on 9-5-2012 by gentledissident because: (no reason given)

Sorry, If I observe A gangbanger punch your mother and take her purse he's getting a beating.

And at that point you are no better than the gangbanger.

No....actually you are worse than the gangbanger because we expect the gangbanger to break the law, however the law enforcement official is expected to lead by example, serve with virtue and dignity, and obey the law. Or does that badge on your chest make you above the law?

I swear to god, its the mentality such as yours and the comment you just made that makes me despise you tyrants so much. Its okay to break the law as long as in doing so you are enforcing the law?

Really? Seems to me that you went into law enforcement so you could do exactly what the a$$holes in the video did, abuse the responsibility you were entrusted with.

A title of authority does not infer power, it infers responsibility.

ETA: Just curious, how many of you and your donut eating buddies would it take to give that beating? It seems none of you are capable of "subduing" even an 80 y.o. woman unless there is a large group of you.
edit on 9-5-2012 by Nucleardiver because: (no reason given)

if you think you can do the job better, go take the test.

I took the test just after leaving the Navy because of my qualifications I thought I wanted to join SWAT. However after spending 6 months riding with a training officer and seeing the constant trampling of rights by the LEO's i decided that I didn't want to be a member of the hypocrite club.

It was my experience that the LEO's used any excuse possible to perform illegal searches, harrass motorists, and intimidate people on most of their stops. And the constant disregard for the law, especially speed limits was astounding. I would constantly see officers going 15-20 MPH over the speed limit and when I would question them they would snicker and say "well who's gonna pull me over" or something to that effect.

Funny how you want to call me self righteous yet you go on to tell me not to judge anyone until I meet them. It seems your hypocrisy is getting the best of you. No I am not self righteous, I just have no tolerance for hypocrisy and abuse of power. LEO's have a set of rules that the must abide by just as I had to obey the Rules of Engagement when I was in the military and when you do not observe those rules then you are breaking the law.

Most of the LEO's want to run around in their military surplus BDU's and play soldier because that's the closest they can get to it. At least when I was in Afghan, Iraq, Panama, or patrolling the waters off of Somalia the people that I was fighting were armed combatants not private civilians that are for the most part unarmed. That's the problem with the current paramilitary police forces that we have in America, they are at war with the people, their constitutionally guaranteed rights, and their liberties and TPYB almost always take the side of their tyranny enforcement officers over the people whom they are sworn to serve.

If these cops want to play tough guy and soldier then they should go enlist, the fact is though that very few of them would make it because arrogance and hot headedness will get you killed in a real combat situation. It takes level headedness and rational thinking to survive when someone is actually fighting back and that is seriously lacking in our modern police agencies.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 11:07 AM
I can't help but think that if this was a person of ethnic background
we would've had riots throughout socal. On the same hand
I feel that because Kelly was white then their might be a chance for justice?
I don't know just my thoughts on the matter.

About the actual video it hurts to watch. Real sad that we put these people in a position
to monitor us normies and they abuse what right we give them. I don't see how this is even
a question of "did he fight back?"

At the same time I don't think all cops are bad. I've been pulled over a bunch of times
and I've never had a bad experience. I'm usually respectful and a lot of the times it works out fo rme. Even if I deserved to get thrown in the can for an evening (public drunkenness :cool
It never got bad for me. Maybe it's my location. Either way this is a little more close to home from me as I frequent DTF bars opn the weekends. Even looking at the pictures of kelly AFTER the beating when he was in the hhospital make me sick to my stomach. How can you vow to protect and serve and make someones face look like that at the same time? They need to rethink how they hire people who "protect" us.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 11:35 AM
reply to post by knightsofcydonia

I think ANYONE would have a hard time submitting to police after they threatened them in this manner.

It's Cops like these, that are going to make it tougher int he future for Law Enforcement. For every "pepper spraying cop" out there -- there's going to be a few more people resisting arrest.

After watching this -- I'm not going to pull over if I see the blue lights, until I'm in a well lit public area. And I will think twice before putting my hands behind my back. Sure, if you punch out a few of these donut stuffing wimps you are going to get in big trouble -- whether you are justified or not. But you will STILL BE ALIVE.

"Resisting Arrest" -- when someone has committed no crime? The officer threatens this man -- who in their right mind would then allow such a thug to cuff them?

The Police are going to get more flack jackets, better guns, and drones -- while Corporate cabals push for "Stand Your Ground Laws" and the rights of homeowners to shoot police. Allowing more Cops to abuse people and get away with it -- means more cops are going to get shot by frightened people. Eventually, you get riots like California saw and the police chief tells the boys in blue not to show up to defend the public because they "don't deserve our help."

We might see some accident behind more aggressive police tactics while at the same time -- crime is at a 40 year low,... but I see these ACCIDENTS being allowed to happen so that things can fall apart.

All you need to create a police state is for the public to lose faith with the Justice System -- and the Cops to feel alienated -- then you have people begging form more big guns to protect them, while at the same time everyone is less safe.

If these cops DON'T do time for manslaughter -- it's only going to be less safe for citizens as well as police.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 11:45 AM
reply to post by Nucleardiver

For your disgust at Hypocrisy and abuse of power -- I think you SHOULD have become a police officer. But you'd probably be miserable and very likely ostracized by all the cowards and hypocrites.

I can only imagine that after this video is viral -- and next week and the week after we see more of these chunky cowards threatening harmless people and then over-reacting when that person doesn't want to be totally at their mercy -- that the ONLY people who will want to become police officers, is LOSERS who want to abuse power.

I've wanted to be part of the Occupy Wall Street protests -- but I don't think I could sit back and not beat the crap out of some officer pepper spraying someone whose arms are chained behind their backs.

It doesn't shock me that there are occasional breaches of the public trust by cops -- it shocks me that LITTLE IS DONE ABOUT IT. People have to fight tooth and nail to get some accountability -- and I'm pretty sure I know what eventually happens when people can't get justice through the legal system. What we saw here wasn't the problem -- it was the symptom of the bigger problem: our entire system is corrupt.

What trickles down from Wall Street isn't money -- it's the abuse of power. I expect to see a lot more of these tragedies because GOOD PEOPLE like yourself don't get in positions of authority, because only the abusers can stomach the system as it degenerates.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 11:52 AM
reply to post by Unity_99

Wow -- it would really be nice if we had a system where people got the help they needed.

... It's possible this man was schizophrenic. But moron cops like we saw in this video are probably more common than not. Instead of diffuse a situation -- they only know how to intimidate.

Imagine if this cop were acting like a "public servant" and asking the homeless person; "Do you need anything? Do you have a place to stay tonight? I can make a few calls..." Instead, he just wants to get rid of the eyesore -- the human being who has become inconvenient because he cannot function. "Just go somewhere and die."

The cop probably was only worried about his own paperwork when the bum died. That's America for you.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 12:21 PM
reply to post by MemoryShock

Could not watch this video more than a couple minutes, they descended upon him like vultures, like demons actually.

While most police thus far are pretty decent, the number of bad ones is increasing.

So is the number of just very strange people.

To young people out there, you haven't been around for almost 6 decades, so you haven't seen how people have changed.

Yes, we have always had bad apples, mean, cruel and degenerated people, but the number is increasing as is the depravity escalating.

How come?

Why is our society degenerating vs progressing as far as socially?

Our technology is getting better day by day yet emotionally and spiritually we are plainly rotting away from the inside out. Now you can't even trust those that are suppose to uphold, serve and protect.

Google L. A. Marzulli - some of what he is saying makes sense.

First watch a couple of his videos and check out his books.

Now what does this thread have to do with aliens, abductions, hybrids and fallen angels in disguise?

Again I'm simply pointing to any reader that is so inclined to research L. A. Marzulli's explanation.

And all this coming from a once Pagan, turned spiritual agnostic for 50 years.

I stopped laughing at the "primitive, superstitious religious Christians after watching Madonna's half time ritual (and yes it was a full blown ritual).

The symbol of the horn so many that have the power and money use.

The down right degradation of particularly women, it's smack in your face and right under your noses.

Endless wars and rumors of wars.

You know the old fairy tales of floods and fallen angels masquerading as aliens.

Not saying I yet believe everything Marzulli is saying, still researching, but have read Politics, Prophecy & The Supernatural, The Cosmic Chess Match and now am on Book 1 of the Nephilim Trilogy called, "The Truth Is Here".

Every culture has stories of giants, floods and fallen angels or malevolent entities.

Other dimensional beings, think of the old story of the fallen angels akin to first Superman Movie with Christopher Reeves and the part of the movie where the three evil beings are encased in a crystal like plate (different dimension) and now that dimension has been possibly breached???

Not saying absolutely (just throwing this information out there) but after watching some of the nutty stuff going on all over the planet and some people (not all or even most) but far too many are actually getting pretty crazy.

Now we had our Alice Cooper and Black Sabbath.

But decade by decade it's getting darker and crazier to the point of many people now are accepting this as "normal".

Those policemen went beyond cruel.

I've sat with a homeless man who later died from being beaten by ???? and it's not a good way to die.

When the people who are suppose to uphold the law are thugs themselves.

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. - Friedrich Nietzsche

**MY NOTE.....NWO IS DEMONIC TYRANNY. THE ANTICHRIST NETWORK(luciferian movement, Big Brother) have infiltrated America with their satanic moles who have infected the entire polictical structure of this dying nation. The police state cops are now new-age stormtroopers who are nothing more than a branch of the antichrist network manipulating humanity. Source:!

I am not sure at this point what to believe but something strange is going on.

My take, possibly and note I don't say absolutely cause I don't purpose to have all the answers, not everyone is driving their own cars (bodies).

People are changing and not for the better.

Description of video:

Uploaded by GoodFightUploads on Dec 31, 2011
Uploaded by GoodFightUploads on Dec 31, 2011

In recent years, astonishing technological developments have pushed the frontiers of humanity toward far-reaching morphological transformation that promises in the very near future to redefine what it means to be human. An international, intellectual, and fast-growing cultural movement known as transhumanism intends the use of genetics, robotics, artificial intelligence, and nanotechnology (Grin technologies) as tools that will radically redesign our minds, our memories, our physiology, our offspring, and even perhaps—as Joel Garreau in his best-selling book, Radical Evolution, claims—our very souls. The technological, cultural, and metaphysical shift now underway unapologetically forecasts a future dominated by this new species of unrecognizably superior humans, and applications under study now to make this dream a reality are being funded by thousands of government and private research facilities around the world. As the reader will learn, this includes, among other things, rewriting human dna and combining humans with beasts, a fact that some university studies and transhumanists believe will not only alter our bodies and souls but ultimately could open a door to contact with unseen intelligence

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 12:38 PM
Last night I came home and logged onto ATS. This was the first thread that I saw. I watched the video and ... I don't know. What can anyone say after watching that. Then I started reading the thread. The video was bad enough, but what a couple of the other people on ATS said, apparently even after watching this video, just enraged me. It's so hard to imagine that someone in their right mind could watch that video and say some of the things that they did.

Where is the compassion? The empathy? The common sense? A mentally ill resident of a California community that was known to the police, known to the officer who started this, known to be non-violent, was brutally attacked, beaten, and died from the wounds those criminals with badges inflicted on him. A couple of the posters on this thread really need to do some serious soul searching, or do everyone a favor ...

I came back this morning and looked at that picture of Kelly Thomas after having been brutalized like that. I know not all LEO's are like the ones in the video, but to be honest, I think most of them are pretty close. I know that they deal with things on a daily basis that no one really wants to deal with, but for the love of God ... what those LEO's did to that man ... every one of them, whether there from the beginning or not ... it was more than an abuse of authority, more than just a momentary lapse of judgement.

Do police departments intentional screen for people who fit this psychological profile to become police officers? Or is it that these are the only kind of people that apply?

How ANY of those LEO's could still be functioning in an LEO capacity after an incident like that is beyond my comprehension. And as soon as that video became available, every one of them should have been arrested. If any group of people other than LEO's had done that, they would have been arrested immediately and placed in jail until other evidence had been gathered (video), and then they would have never seen the light of day after that video came out.

I guess one of the lessons learned here is that there is yet another town in California to avoid like the plague ... joining yet a longer list of towns across America.

How can we as a society continue to accept this? It just seems like every single person who is in public service, from politicians to policemen are there for any other reason than for public service.

It was bad enough for me before watching that video, I thought I had already lost all faith in humanity, but that was the icing on the cake. I just don't want to be here anymore. There are just way too many sick and violent people roaming this planet. Asteroid, nuclear war, Fukishima, the Second Coming ... who cares anymore. Just let it happen soon and wipe the face of this planet clean.

'In the image of god' my ass.

Nothing more than an over-populated planet of mentally-ill hairless apes.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Another10Pin there are many, many war veterans that are returning with brain injuries with resultant mental issues.

Heres a thought, since there
is so much passion about this issue
go do something about the people
involved... I donate to my causes.
Whats left in the post im replying
to is filled with nothing but hate, hate
for the cops, hate for the people on this board,
and kelly is still dead... as a door nail
the hatred spewed will not bring him back
get a grip, a life, visit the real world then come
tell us whats the thought of kelly thomas..
edit on 9-5-2012 by popsmayhem because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 01:04 PM

Originally posted by popsmayhem

Originally posted by Another10Pin there are many, many war veterans that are returning with brain injuries with resultant mental issues.

Heres a thought, since there
is so much passion about this issue
go do something about the people
involved... I donate to my causes.
Whats left in the post im replying
to is filled with nothing but hate, hate
for the cops, hate for the people on this board,
and kelly is still dead... as a door nail
the hatred spewed will not bring him back
get a grip, a life, visit the real world then come
tell us whats the thought of kelly thomas..
edit on 9-5-2012 by popsmayhem because: (no reason given)

Yes, it is probably best that you went back and deleted everything that your post originally quoted and cut it down to that one statement. At least that one statement still makes sense, but you .... you are deranged. Later, FF.

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 05:36 PM
reply to post by EyesWideShut

Okay sport, you want to play the logical fallacy game? Let's play! Let's first take note of the obvious, that while you're linking a list of logical fallacies you cannot resist using an ad hominem by calling me an idiot. God knows why in this intellectual debate you thought you could show up unarmed and walk away unscathed, but here you are hopelessly and haplessly unarmed.

Let's take a look now at your ridiculous statement that because you hail from New Jersey you cannot know the law in California. This is a logical fallacy of argument to laziness, it is also a logical fallacy of an appeal to complexity, and it is the logical fallacy of reductio ad absurdum all rolled into one. The law is not some sort of magical mystical spell that works differently in different states depending upon which wizard casts the spell. All law is simple, true, universal, and absolute, and to argue that you cannot know the law in another region or area is just absurd.

Your desperate claim that I have committed a logical fallacy of "misplaced concreteness" which is otherwise known as reification is in itself a logical fallacy of misplaced concreteness. Hell, you dismissed the two sections of the Declaration of Rights from the Constitution for the State of New Jersey as being a "cut and paste game", but that "cut and paste" takes my argument firmly out of "misplaced concreteness" and into a factual point of law! Further, you foolishly assert that my presumption that you took an oath of office to protect and defend that Constitution was not a presumption. This was foolish on two levels. First, until you verified that you took that oath of office, all I could honestly do was presume you had. Secondly, it was a foolish assertion because now that you have verified that you took that oath of office you have no excuse for the profound ignorance of law you are demonstrating in this thread.

Of course, ignorance of the law is no excuse at any time, but in this thread you ignorance could be seen as relatively harmless, until now where you have admitted to taking this oath but stupidly dismissed that very Constitution you took an oath to protect and defend. Even if you are so stupid as to think that oath meant you've been tasked with protecting a piece of paper from vandals and thieves, your ignorance of law is no excuse.

You can play this game of "hypothetical" all you want. If you do not understand that your oath of office demands you protect the unalienable rights of all people and that by the assertion of Section 21 of the Constitution for the State of New Jersey you are obligated to understand all the hypothetical situations that involves then you should resign your position as a law enforcement officer since you are clearly in over your head.

It matters not how you arrive on a scene. If you are not a first responder to that scene and walk into a scenario where other thugs with badges are mercilessly beating a man, it is way beyond disingenuous to suggest you cannot know what is actually going on. Further linking a list of New Jersey statutes in order to refute the Constitution of the State of New Jersey is outrageously stupid! There are countless lawyers who paid for their pools and luxury cars because of fools like you who think they can stupidly point to a statute and argue it trumps the very constitution that empowered that legislature to legislate the statue to begin with.

More times than not the statutes themselves are perfectly harmonious with that constitution and the unconstitutionality lies in the gross misapplication of that statute in a most imprudent attempt to expand jurisdiction where none existed. While most law dictionaries tend to define subject matter jurisdiction in relation to the courts, there is a logical extension to the law enforcement officers who brought charges that court. If I, for example, am ticketed by a Fullerton police officer for "vagrancy" and I walk into court and challenge the jurisdiction the court is obligated to show on record they have this jurisdiction. Since I would be pointing to the California State Constitution as my authority in asserting there was no proper jurisdiction, the court cannot rely upon some silly Fullerton ordnance to show on record they have jurisdiction.

The court will be forced to dismiss the charge against me for want of subject matter jurisdiction leaving me with a ticket that serves as prima facie evidence of the citing officers criminality. That citing officer does not enjoy any limited immunity in this matter since the court was forced to dismiss the charge for want of subject matter jurisdiction.


posted on May, 9 2012 @ 05:37 PM
reply to post by EyesWideShut

You want to pretend that jurisdiction has nothing to do with you in your mystical magical state of New Jersey, but the United States District Court, D. New Jersey disagrees. Consider this point of law made by RENÉE MARIE BUMB, District Judge in Alfred v. New Jersey:

Rule 12(b)(1) of the Federal rules of Civil Procedure provides that a party may assert lack of subject-matter jurisdiction as a defense. Rule 12(h)(3) provides that "f the Court determines at any time that it lacks subject-matter jurisdiction, the Court must dismiss the action."

Ironically, the defendants in this case were transit cops who've used the lawful defense of challenging subject matter jurisdiction to have the complaint against them dismissed. This fact only demonstrates your own ridiculous ignorance of subject matter jurisdiction.

Further, you disingenuously link a list of New Jersey statutes declining to point to any single one to support any of your contentions, but I will show you a very specific New Jersey statute that addressed the very real problem you and other police officers are guilty of:

1. This act shall be known and may be cited as the "New Jersey Civil Rights Act."

2. a. If a person, whether or not acting under color of law, subjects or causes to be subjected any other person to the deprivation of any 3substantive3 due process or equal protection rights, privileges or immunities secured by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or any 3substantive3 rights, privileges or immunities secured by the Constitution or laws of this State, the Attorney General may bring a civil action for damages and for injunctive or other appropriate relief.

This statute - quoted in part - empowers the state of New Jersey to come after you in the event you act under the color law - which is to say without jurisdiction, but don't be so foolish as to think this statute negates or undermines any individual who has been injured by your willful acting under color of law - which is to say without jurisdiction - and the individual still has the lawful and unalienable right to a redress of grievances on their own.

Go ahead, sport, cry hypothetical on this, but you were the one who most imprudently made the fallacious argument of ambiguity by linking a plethora of New Jessey statutes in another fallacious argument of appeal to authority. Of course, when it comes to law, appealing to authority is necessary, but only when such an appeal is rooted in authority. It is reasonable to state that if you actually thought your legal appeal to authority had any basis in law you would not have relied upon the logical fallacy of argument of ambiguity.

Further, just because the State of New Jersey enacted a "civil rights act" in regards to color of law, this does not mean that prosecutors use this act to aggressively weed out corrupt police officers. As Trac Reports have found:

Police officers, prison guards and other government officials who improperly abuse the rights of individual Americans have long been recognized in federal law as a threat to society as a whole. That's why, immediately after the Civil War, Congress approved Title 18 USC 242 -- a statute making it a crime to deprive any person of their rights "under color of law."

But, as case-by-case Justice Department records make very clear, a law on the books does not always translate into a law that is enforced. In this particular case, for example, the latest available Justice Department data show that federal prosecutors declined to file charges against virtually all -- 98.7% -- of the individuals who the investigative agencies had concluded were in violation of 18 USC 242.

This means that individuals cannot rely upon the very states they empowered to protect their rights to actually do so. You've gone on record that homeless people you "don't recognize" cannot rely upon you to protect their rights, and individuals should know they cannot rely upon the any New Jersey prosecutors to do so. For this reason, all those you declared "simples" simply because they starred my posts are doing so because they recognize that I am fighting for their rights while you are...well, calling them "simples".

The good people of New Jersey pay your salary, sport. How many of them, I wonder, have you called "simples".

edit on 9-5-2012 by Jean Paul Zodeaux because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 9 2012 @ 06:39 PM
Update - We're going to trial!!!

YES!!!!!! Fullerton police Officer Manuel Ramos and Cpl. Jay Cicinelli ordered by Judge Walter Schwarm to appear in court May 22. #KellyThomas

Edit to add link...
edit on Wed, 09 May 2012 18:47:51 -0500 by MemoryShock because: (no reason given)

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