Two Super Moon Men

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
With all due respect to all members including you ArMap. I think the member responses as a whole have been racist, bias, perplexed and otherwise obtuse.

As I said before, I haven't seen any racist response, the only thing I saw was (or is it were) some comments saying that you could have been trying to provoke a racist response because of the way you worded your posts.
Perplexed? Sure, as almost nobody understood what you wanted with this thread.

It is ok to think, believe or not care about an others thoughts. But to intentionally dilute them and degrade them, is paramount to self denial.

Maybe if you had presented your thoughts in a more comprehensible manner you would get different answers.

I am a proud American. One of Millions. Millions that have provided the capital for Most SPACE failures and a tiny amount of success for the dollar. On that tenure alone the American Public is qualified to be here and ask WHO the BLAZES are these TWO SUPER MOON MEN?? What do they or did they stand for?

My question is, in what aspect do you want to look at this. As this is the Space Exploration forum, people that come here expect more science related topics.

If you are asking "who were these two men" and expect and promote a discussion about their work related to space exploration, things will be different than if you ask "what do they stand for", specially if you post texts that apparently point to some kind of religious context (the "Dedicated Christian" part).

I have a notion that the members whom endeavor to derail my thread have never paid a dime towards space exploration.

So, does that mean that you think that non-US members are the ones that you think are trying to derail your thread?

Sorry ArtMap you said you are a person from another non contributing country, so you are excused from my chastise. Errr except for the T+C violations you missed

Portugal, as far as I know, never contributed directly to anything related with NASA, but there were some Portuguese that worked (and probably there are some still working) for NASA.

The first non-American person to be invited to visit the NASA installations was a Portuguese.

Ignorance is denial.

No, ignorance may be voluntary or involuntary, I'm sure that there are many things that you do not know, and your ignorance about those subjects is not denial, is it?

If you are unhappy. take a hike

Now, that's not very nice, don't you think? Unless you are suggesting that I take a stroll outside, but it doesn't look like it.

PS expand your lungs get h20 to your gray matter.

Are you implying that my grey matter is not working as it should?

If you don't know, the most important things for grey matter are O2 (not h20, whatever that may be) and sugar, and while it's a fact that, being an asthmatic, I do not get as much O2 as I could, I get more than enough.

reply to post by ArMaP


Hi ArMap,
I was not trying to single you out, in any instance. Except for the deleted posts. Perhaps you did not see their content. If you look back in the thread you will see a pile of ATS deletions. The take a hike, was not at all directed towards you.
It was a poor attempt at saying that if you(members in general) do not want to participate go elsewhere some where that you can be comfortable and not confused.
I am aware that this is a quite techy forum. What I still do not understand is the attacks instead of the free will to go elsewhere.
I see blatant attempts to derail. Does this mean some members want a discussion such as this swept under the rug? I say yes it does.
If you are a member of NASA would you not be ashamed of many aspects of these two men?
For example von Braun being held as a guarded prisoner (OF WAR) for so many years.
Especially since he was a CIVILIAN. Human rights! Tell me about it.
There is plenty about Stewart that should be looked at as well.
It is how they affect and have affected the space programs.
These program belongs to the American PEOPLE.
Not just a wolf pack of ATS techy malcontents.
Space Exploration is for and about the people first and foremost.
Is it possible for members to discuss the DARK side of these matters??
I understand resistance to this discussion but I do not see it as off topic for this Forum.
Especially just because OTHERS are CONFUSED. I know better. They are just being protective of the secrets hiding in the basement.
I will no long continue to defend my position here as I feel it is a waste of my time, your time.
We are the only ones with true obligation here.
The fate of this thread which btw has garnered an impressive number of flags for one so reviled.
Is and has been totally in your hands or whoever the moderator is for this thread.
I cannot control that.
I can say I used to lobster with some mighty fine men from your country. In MA and FL.
On the surface and under. The Portuguese Princess sails out of Provincetown Cape Cod.
Whale watching now. I hope you get to take a ride some day. My Florida buddy is dead and scattered in the Atlantic. Drink him in if you get down to Costa Verde.
non adversarially ljb

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
Hi ArMap,
I was not trying to single you out, in any instance.

OK, but by my understanding of what you wrote, it looked like you were. That's why I said you should try to write in a way that is easier to understand, if you really want to be understood.

Except for the deleted posts. Perhaps you did not see their content. If you look back in the thread you will see a pile of ATS deletions.

I saw them.

The take a hike, was not at all directed towards you.
It was a poor attempt at saying that if you(members in general) do not want to participate go elsewhere some where that you can be comfortable and not confused.

OK.

I see blatant attempts to derail. Does this mean some members want a discussion such as this swept under the rug? I say yes it does.

I don't think so, I think that, for most people, this is just an irrelevant subject, as they are more interested in the results than in the people behind them (I know I am)

If you are a member of NASA would you not be ashamed of many aspects of these two men?

Are you ashamed, as an American?

These program belongs to the American PEOPLE.
Not just a wolf pack of ATS techy malcontents.

The fact that these programs belong to the American people doesn't mean that the American people is interested in some of the aspects of it, and I think that, in the case of this thread, that was the biggest problem, along with a lack of clear intent.

Space Exploration is for and about the people first and foremost.

I don't think so, space exploration is about space exploration, with all that includes.

Is it possible for members to discuss the DARK side of these matters??
I understand resistance to this discussion but I do not see it as off topic for this Forum.

If you present your ideas well I don't see why it cannot be discussed in this forum, I just couldn't understand what did you want to discuss (and I still have some doubts)

Especially just because OTHERS are CONFUSED. I know better.

But who do you want to get involved in the discussion, you or others? If you wan to involve other people in the discussion you should write for other people, not for yourself. You should place yourself in their shoes and see what feelings what you wrote convey, if it could be interpreted in a different way, etc.

They are just being protective of the secrets hiding in the basement.

Or so you think, you should never consider that your opinion is the truth.

The fate of this thread which btw has garnered an impressive number of flags for one so reviled.

That is usually a sign that the topic had some interest, but people did not felt comfortable participating in it.
As I said before, I think that if you had worded things in a different way from the beginning you could have had the discussion you wanted.

Who knows, maybe some other time.

reply to post by longjohnbritches


Oh? Indeed:

Well I have noticed a propensity to deceive with racist off topic banter through out this thread.

Once again.......time will tell.

Of course, your claims above? Are without any merit.


Sorry.......hope that some can eventually get out and actually learn some aspects of historical facts, instread of....well.....believing in nonsense.

Originally posted by ProudBird
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

Oh? Indeed:

Well I have noticed a propensity to deceive with racist off topic banter through out this thread.

Once again.......time will tell.

Of course, your claims above? Are without any merit.


Sorry.......hope that some can eventually get out and actually learn some aspects of historical facts, instread of....well.....believing in nonsense.

edit on Tue 24 April 2012 by ProudBird because: (no reason given)

That is why I beleive in you pb ole buddy boy.

Above Top Secret - Uncovering Government Secrets ... Government projects and facilities,

Take a hike, Get some air.
If you members do not want to participate go elsewhere some where that you can be comfortable and not confused.

reply to post by ArMaP

Hi ArMap
Perhaps.
Thank you for being a gentleman with your replies.
I will take your advice into consideration.
ljb

Originally posted by longjohnbritches

Originally posted by ProudBird
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

Oh? Indeed:

Well I have noticed a propensity to deceive with racist off topic banter through out this thread.

Once again.......time will tell.

Of course, your claims above? Are without any merit.


Sorry.......hope that some can eventually get out and actually learn some aspects of historical facts, instread of....well.....believing in nonsense.

edit on Tue 24 April 2012 by ProudBird because: (no reason given)

That is why I beleive in you pb ole buddy boy.

Above Top Secret - Uncovering Government Secrets ... Government projects and facilities,

Take a hike, Get some air.
If you members do not want to participate go elsewhere some where that you can be comfortable and not confused.

Exactly why someone needs to take a "chill pill"...

OK?? I'm trying to tell you......to tone it down!!.

If you don't know what 'that' means, well.......see ya later, when you CAN converse in a rational manner.....

reply to post by ProudBird


Well, here you are again.
Who went away and left you in charge? Illustronics?
Have you pecked up so many of those chill pills that they are affecting your thought processes?
Now on topic.
This is your statement and I quote you.

"OK.....and the point was (again)???
TWO men who happened to be (One, a former NAZI...and the other, JEWISH??)..."

In order to help you with your total and utter bewilderment here I will help you out in your Ignorance.
You may not know which is which so read this---
The FBI Files of Wernher von Braun
huntsville.about.com/library/blank/blvonbraun9.htm

[url]The FBI Files of Werhner Von Braun--Part 9
By Tom Carney[url/]
Reprinted with permission of Old Huntsville Magazine

One of the most esteemed members of the rocket team later explained von Braun’s actions. “Germany, in many ways, was like the United States. You could support your country without liking the president. The difference was that as a US citizen you are entirely free to express your opinions. In Nazi Germany, you lost at least your freedom, and possibly your life if you did so.”

Another scientist explained it differently. “Don’t kid yourself, we were at war. Our cities were being bombed daily. When the V-2s hit London there was an opening of Champagne bottles.”

For von Braun, however, there was no explaining. The government, of which he was now a citizen, had instigated a cover-up years earlier and to have said anything would have exposed the government’s actions, as well as jeopardizing the future of the space program.

Despite being under constant surveillance and enduring relentless attacks on his character, von Braun had nothing but praise for his adopted country. When one person wrote him, suggesting that severe measures be taken with people who opposed national interests, he wrote back, “Years of direct exposure to the Hitler regime, and its excesses, taught me a few unforgettable lessons and made me solidly opposed to any form of government which would deprive man of human dignity.”

reply to post by longjohnbritches


yes....again.....some people who are "smart" happen to be "Jews"...or "Christians"...or "Methodists" or "Presbyterians" or "Catholics" or "Hindus" or.......just fill in the "blanks" for EVERY religion that has ever been imagined!!

Because....ALL religions.....I repeat, ALL religions, are imaginary!!!

Not sure how "religion" applies to NASA.....so, again.....your 'point'??

Originally posted by ProudBird
reply to post by longjohnbritches

 

yes....again.....some people who are "smart" happen to be "Jews"...or "Christians"...or "Methodists" or "Presbyterians" or "Catholics" or "Hindus" or.......just fill in the "blanks" for EVERY religion that has ever been imagined!!

Because....ALL religions.....I repeat, ALL religions, are imaginary!!!

Not sure how "religion" applies to NASA.....so, again.....your 'point'??

That would have to be something YOU must explain.
Because you no what?? I said not one word about it.
It is YOUR phobia AND your PHOBIA alone here that mentions it.DUH!
Can you get your chill pills you perscribe in suppository form??
What have you deduced from the von Braun link??
That you are prone to fabrication and what else???
Get right back here this thread needs all the bumpss it can get.

reply to post by longjohnbritches


Ahhhh.....how "trollish":

Get right back here this thread needs all the bumpss it can get.

Done....(wiping hands).

reply to post by ProudBird


Do you mean claws? Talons?
When a peep fledges it can then fly.
The key to this is to stay in camo untill then.
Sorta like one of our SUPER MOON MEN.
Does any want to field PB's position??
I am gonna miss ya bird ljb

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
Hi say
They are connected in my opinion by being two titans of American moon projects.
Two guys with loyalties to foreign countries.
Two guy that can either be cheered or booed.
Two guys with different opportunities or the lack of opportunity.
Two guys that were used and or abused by the system.
Two guys that the members here want swept under the rug.

Thanks for this point of view. And I understand where you are coming from. Your thread is about biography... or,
your thread is about the historical narrative of the American space program. I get it!

Let me entertain you with my thoughtless evaluation of these gentlemen.

First, Werner Von Braun.
Everything I have read about Von Braun, all indications to me is that he was a dreamer/scientist. He wrote sci-fi novels about going to moon and mars using massive rocket fleets. He conspired with Walt Disney to solidify and make concrete in the mind of the public the ideas that "omg huge rockets" were required for travel beyond Earth orbit.

It was on Von Braun's personal advice that JFK challenged the Military Industrial Complex to land a man on the Moon and safely return him to Earth.

I believe that JFK made this speech for two reasons, first, it was intended to be a pay-off for the military industrial warlords. The pay-off (in my theory) was intended to be a message from JFK to the MIC saying "hey look, I will give you a # load of taxpayer money to develop huge rockets that can put a man on the moon. i don't want a bloodbath in south east asia or in cuba. just take this money and give America a good show."

And I believe that the MIC responded to JFK on November 22nd, 1963. There is no doubt in my mind that Werner Von Braun could design *OMG HUGE rockets*. And we can see from the launch history how successful those rockets were. This doesn't mean that man walked on the Moon.

Werner von Braun's motivations may always be in question. He did what any good German scientist would do and he worked for the NAZI's during the era when his country needed him. As soon as he was captured he switched his allegiance and was photographed with a broken arm. Hmmmmm.

Stewart Nozette is a different character indeed. The FBI video tapes show him almost giddy with the idea of selling secret to the Israeli's. His FBI tapes can easily be found on the internet. What he said in the FBI videos that he was making a 'career move' or a 'career change' (I am forgetful of the actual quote but I don't kid you.)

Nozette has awesome scientific credentials. When he was caught in the FBI bust he was working on the MiniSars device attached to the Indian lunar probe, Chandraayan-1. As we all know, that spacecraft had built into it the MiniSars device which was created by the US Navy Air Warfare.

Miniature Synthetic Aperture Radar (MiniSAR) is from Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins University and Naval Air Warfare Centre, USA through NASA. Source www.isro.org...

Nozette also turns out to be a horrible traitor to his country. It's hard to understand why someone could sell out their country for money but this guy is the classic case. Von Braun did the same thing when he was swept up by Operation Paperclip.

Just my two cents.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter

Originally posted by longjohnbritches
Hi say
They are connected in my opinion by being two titans of American moon projects.
Two guys with loyalties to foreign countries.
Two guy that can either be cheered or booed.
Two guys with different opportunities or the lack of opportunity.
Two guys that were used and or abused by the system.
Two guys that the members here want swept under the rug.

Thanks for this point of view. And I understand where you are coming from. Your thread is about biography... or,
your thread is about the historical narrative of the American space program. I get it!

Let me entertain you with my thoughtless evaluation of these gentlemen.

First, Werner Von Braun.
Everything I have read about Von Braun, all indications to me is that he was a dreamer/scientist. He wrote sci-fi novels about going to moon and mars using massive rocket fleets. He conspired with Walt Disney to solidify and make concrete in the mind of the public the ideas that "omg huge rockets" were required for travel beyond Earth orbit.

It was on Von Braun's personal advice that JFK challenged the Military Industrial Complex to land a man on the Moon and safely return him to Earth.

I believe that JFK made this speech for two reasons, first, it was intended to be a pay-off for the military industrial warlords. The pay-off (in my theory) was intended to be a message from JFK to the MIC saying "hey look, I will give you a # load of taxpayer money to develop huge rockets that can put a man on the moon. i don't want a bloodbath in south east asia or in cuba. just take this money and give America a good show."

And I believe that the MIC responded to JFK on November 22nd, 1963. There is no doubt in my mind that Werner Von Braun could design *OMG HUGE rockets*. And we can see from the launch history how successful those rockets were. This doesn't mean that man walked on the Moon.

Werner von Braun's motivations may always be in question. He did what any good German scientist would do and he worked for the NAZI's during the era when his country needed him. As soon as he was captured he switched his allegiance and was photographed with a broken arm. Hmmmmm.

Stewart Nozette is a different character indeed. The FBI video tapes show him almost giddy with the idea of selling secret to the Israeli's. His FBI tapes can easily be found on the internet. What he said in the FBI videos that he was making a 'career move' or a 'career change' (I am forgetful of the actual quote but I don't kid you.)

Nozette has awesome scientific credentials. When he was caught in the FBI bust he was working on the MiniSars device attached to the Indian lunar probe, Chandraayan-1. As we all know, that spacecraft had built into it the MiniSars device which was created by the US Navy Air Warfare.

Miniature Synthetic Aperture Radar (MiniSAR) is from Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins University and Naval Air Warfare Centre, USA through NASA. Source www.isro.org...

Nozette also turns out to be a horrible traitor to his country. It's hard to understand why someone could sell out their country for money but this guy is the classic case. Von Braun did the same thing when he was swept up by Operation Paperclip.

Just my two cents.

Hi sat
That's more like a mine of gold. The bird crew has one cent minus the the pidgeon poo.
Proud bird and all the detractors of my thread should be swhooping in like CONDORS
Keep your bird swatter handy. lamo
cheers ljb

In many ways Von Braun and Nozette are more important to the Apollo Story than Neil or Buzz. (In my theory, Neil and Buzz are both puppets in a game of blind trust to authority and self-deception.)

Von Braun and Nozette.

It is hard to look at history with asking a question like "what would it be like if Werner von Braun was killed in Germany instead of captured by the OSS?"

von Braun had a strong, unique vision of how space exploration would be done. The books, magazine articles, the collaborations with Walt Disney, and he eventually built these rockets and proved that it could be done. His objective is to launch the massive rocket and to step aside when the CIA sideshow begins.

I'm having some trouble finding any pictures of Von Braun and Richard Nixon together. Just fyi.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


Yeah...well.....:

I'm having some trouble finding any pictures of Von Braun and Richard Nixon together. Just fyi.

GOOD LUCK with your 'personal' crusade.

THING is?

Apollo was REAL!!

Deal with it.....if you are of a 'younger' age, then ..... one day, you will regret this nonsense you have posted....BUT!!! Wonderfully, the Internet "Never" forgets!!! SO, your shame, and ignorance, will be forever!!!

Enjoy that!!! (now....)............

reply to post by ProudBird

Apollo was REAL!!

Deal with it.....

Thank you for the most eloquent summary Mr. ProudBird. Actually, you have over simplified the situation and claimed that your dogma is superior to all other dogma. That is a tragedy of epic proportions.

This could be a great thread about Werner Von Braun and Stewart Nozette, about NASA and Apollo.

This comes down to the testimony of 12 men who said they walked on the Moon. One of those men is Edgar Mitchell who also has stated that the US Government and NASA has withheld the truth regarding the events taking place at Roswell, NM in 1947. Source en.wikipedia.org...



Is Edgar Mitchell a credible source or is he not a credible source? Please request for a direct answer. Thank You.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
reply to post by ProudBird

 

Apollo was REAL!!

Deal with it.....

Thank you for the most eloquent summary Mr. ProudBird. Actually, you have over simplified the situation and claimed that your dogma is superior to all other dogma. That is a tragedy of epic proportions.

This could be a great thread about Werner Von Braun and Stewart Nozette, about NASA and Apollo.

This comes down to the testimony of 12 men who said they walked on the Moon. One of those men is Edgar Mitchell who also has stated that the US Government and NASA has withheld the truth regarding the events taking place at Roswell, NM in 1947. Source en.wikipedia.org...

Is Edgar Mitchell a credible source or is he not a credible source? Please request for a direct answer. Thank You.

edit on 4/25/2012 by SayonaraJupiter because: 4 beers change Edwin to Edgar

Sorry but I do not agree. Roswell has absoutly NADA (nothing in english perhaps yidish as well) to do with spying. This guy did what Nozette wanted to do---

Jonathan Pollard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard - Similarto Jonathan Pollard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Until this point, investigators could not confirm that Pollard had been spying for ..... Sumner Shapiro, John L. Butts, and Thomas Brooks, authored a response to ...

If you require more information on the TWO SUPER MOON MEN
POST me, POst me, and i'll be around
ljb