It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

[HOAX]saw flying metallic disk in nashville... WITH PICS... and now my dog is sick[HOAX]

page: 36
74
<< 33  34  35    37  38  39 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 12:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by mainidh
Does anyone know how his dog is though?

edit on 13-4-2012 by mainidh because: (no reason given)


There is no dog (despite the vet bills and photos).
Hoaxers hoax about everything. I think that's the general consensuses here.




posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 12:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by Human_Alien

Originally posted by amongus

Originally posted by mainidh
Does anyone know how his dog is though?

edit on 13-4-2012 by mainidh because: (no reason given)


The op dropped off of his thread a mere two hours after starting it. So, no...nobody knows.



Yeah but how many hours until he was drop-kicked off this thread though? (serious question)


He had all yesterday, last night and this morning to come on here and answer questions before being banned.

Yet he chose not too.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 12:36 AM
link   

Originally posted by greeneyedleo

Originally posted by Screwed
I love how whenever someone posts a pic of a UFO everyone is suddenly a motherfriggn photoexpert working a crimescene. Huge egos abound.


Welcome to ATS Aliens & UFO forum where TRUTH & TRUTH ONLY is sought (or should be).

Either one is here to confirm their beliefs or they are here to seek TRUTH....no matter what that truth reveals.

Like or not, people hoax....people lie....people misidentify. If people truly are seeking TRUTH on this issue, then they should not be so flippn' offended and bent out of shape as if one's mother has been called a nasty 4 letter word.
They should embrace people who are TRYING to eliminate the CRAP so that the truth can be found.

Good Lord! I swear to God, this topic is so out of control.....people dont want truth. They want reassurance. They want confirmation.

Dont ever let the FACTS get in the way of a good story!! That makes for a dull & boring life!



Hey brother, I have no problem with this not being real/being a hoax.
I am not married the idea either way.
Because no matter what, I still have to get up and go to friggin work tomorrow so I can keep a roof over my head.

I just find it a little funny how many people play armchair photo expert in these threads.
There are a few who know their #, and they know who they are. But then there are those who simply have opinions and try to pass them off as educated opinions.

And well, we all know that saying about opinions don't we?

Opinions are like (something) everyone has one.
Just wish I could remember how that saying goes.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 12:36 AM
link   

Originally posted by strafgod

If anyone wants to copy and paste the OP or anything else
Text based then heres the Link



Hmmm, Like you said, half the OP's original post was Normal, the 2nd half (about the dog) was deceptive.

His other responses were mixed as well, half were normal, half were deceptive (I'm not sure how that relates, since the OP uses the word I while describing the events, and it's deception based on "self").

What's interesting is his posts about taking the photos, and not capturing a video read as normal.

Thank you for the Link by the way, I just been using this site for the last hour checking old emails of mine, and yes it finds when I was being deceptive, or truthful. It's fascinating really. What really shocked me, was all my friends are lying a-holes.

I was also using it to truth check some Political Speeches ( This program is not a fan of Obama, but seems to love Ron Paul... hmmm someone should make that it's own thread, it's fun).
edit on 13-4-2012 by squidboy because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-4-2012 by squidboy because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 01:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by webpirate
Not given a chance to defend
himself?



Can you explain why these look like iPhone apps and you have an iPhone and the file names have been changed? these are not original pictures. no phone would name the images "object 1, 2, 3"

And his answer is here.



ah yes. always wondered how this forum would react if i ever got any photographic evidence; i'm not going to bother explaining myself because really there haven't been any real questions raised.... make of it what you will.



and also here www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by RickyVelveeta
oh and i named the images 'object1, 2 and 3' because after i emailed them to myself and downloaded, the default download name was just the 'get-attatchment' thing that older macs do. i labelled them so i could find them in my downloads folder for the photobucket upload.


Sounds reasonable.


Originally posted by webpirate
And here are excerpts from the EXIF data to back up what I said about him moving.



  1. Object 1

    Date/Time 2012:04:11 13:41:36
    GPS Altitude 201 metres
    GPS Latitude 36"7'45.6
    GPS Longitude 86"47'33.6


  2. Object 2

    Date/Time 2012:04:11 13:41:16
    GPS Altitude 202 metres
    GPS Latitude 36"7'45.6
    GPS Longitude 86"47'34.2

  3. Object 3

    Date/Time 2012:04:11 13:41:15
    GPS Altitude 202 metres
    GPS Latitude 36"7'45.6
    GPS Longitude 86"47'34.2



Object 2 and 3 are one second apart in time, and have the exact same altitude, and GPS coordinates. Object 1, is
20 seconds LATER than 2 and 3 are, is 1 meter higher in elevation, and the GPS lat and long are slightly different.
This is in direct contrast to what the OP posted in this post here.



i wasn't using auto-shutter, just snapped as many pics as i could using my finger on the button so i guess there's not like a consistent framerate or whatever. as i said before, it was hovering for a few seconds and sorta turned up on the side and 'bounced' away. i was looking at my phone for the most part, trying to tap the screen in the right place to take the pics; it was all very fast.


These 3 images cover 21 seconds, 1 meter elevation difference, a slight movement in both latitude and longitude and could not have ALL been taken with a single push of the button. Even if the timing is "off" like he claimed, and they were indeed 3 consecutive images, one would have been blurry since he moved.

So he was...indeed given a chance very early on to prove himself. And he chose to dig a deeper hole.



edit on 12-4-2012 by webpirate because: formatting


I'm not sure why you've claimed the latitude is different. It's seems to be a consistent 36"7'45.6 in the figures you've given. So basically he has moved 0.6 of a second of longitude .I don't know how to convert that to metres but it doesn't sound much. From looking at the picture it looks like he took a step or two forward. The change in elevation could be that he walked up an incline in the garden while raising the iPhone higher. Not sure how that proves a hoax.

I don't recall the OP ever saying he took these photos with a 'single push of the button' either. Where did that come from? Presumably he took each individual picture with a single push (i.e one push one photo) but not all pics with one push. He clearly states he didn't use auto-shutter.

The major discrepancy seems to be the 20 second gap although even that isn't inconsistent with anything he has said. Perception of time is notoriously subjective. Especially when we are excited, something can seem to last only a few seconds when it actually lasts much longer.

I'm not claiming that these photos are real or that this isn't a hoax but your post is the one the Mods have chosen as their reason for labelling the thread as such and banning the OP and to my mind the evidence you've presented is not sufficient to reach that conclusion.


edit on 13/4/2012 by MarrsAttax because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 02:23 AM
link   
It is amazing that you say that this is a hoax and you ban the user that has uploaded the photos.

I have seen how a location of an iphone changes from place to place without the iphone moving at all, sometimes GPS signals are not perfect or sometimes they fail because different factors.

I bet that if something with high radiation is near the cordinates of the iphone will fail.

Also viewing the cordinates of the iphone I see no issue at all that can confirm this is a hoax, if someone wants to publish fake photos why he would want to upload photos with his location?

Something very strange happens in this site were people is reporting hoax threads without reason, I have seen different threads flaged as hoax without being a hoax.

Also why ban a user that creates a thread like that one, very strange things happen in this place don't you think so?



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 02:46 AM
link   
I have followed this thread since page 1.

This morning I woke up excitedly to come back on here and follow the discussion regarding the pics.

Lo and behold, I get here, and.............Its in the hoax forum, and as an added nail in the coffin, the member is banned! Whaa??

I have stated before I am in the middle regarding this issue, and even now, my mind is still not made up either way.

Yet, now the truth is buried underneath all the rubble and feces that popped up in this thread.

Furthermore, I would like to venture a bit outside the box.

Lets imagine for a second that ufos, aliens etc are indeed real.

Would it not stand to reason then, that our way of physics, maths, etc are all to be disregarded in the event of analysing these unexplained phenomenon?

I see shadows being mentioned, irregular movement, and more. Yet, that is from a purely human viewpoint, using human ways of seeing and analysing things.

Could it not be that ufo craft reflect light differently, that they fly differently to what we perceive to be normal?

This is of course speculation, but it is also food for thought.

We need to stay objective and see things from all angles, before rushing to decisions based on sometimes laughable "photo analysis"

vvv



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 03:10 AM
link   
reply to post by MarrsAttax
 
Indeed. Good comments. I wrote about the specifics of why the decision it's a hoax based on GPS details was flawed in this reply. Beyond that, it appears it was not appreciated that the OP did not return right away and respond to every question posed to them immediately.

Comments were also made by sta ATS members in the thread expressing that they felt the shape of the object or directional changes in one of the photos didn't appear quite right.


I couldn't argue that point, personally, as I have not attended the 'Identify a Genuine UFO' course yet.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 03:31 AM
link   

Originally posted by Human_Alien

Originally posted by mainidh
Does anyone know how his dog is though?

edit on 13-4-2012 by mainidh because: (no reason given)


There is no dog (despite the vet bills and photos).
Hoaxers hoax about everything. I think that's the general consensuses here.


Actually, the dog is real.. LOL, I know this because he has plenty of pictures of it on his Facebook, MySpace, and Instagram


And yes, I understand the tone of your post, lol.. Just saying though



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 03:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by amongus
Well, if people want answers, why not talk to the op directly Here

Op's twitter account.
edit on 12-4-2012 by amongus because: (no reason given)


Mother or God, I've created a monster...


LMFAO



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 03:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

I'm not sure why you've claimed the latitude is different. It's seems to be a consistent 36"7'45.6 in the figures you've given. So basically he has moved 0.6 of a second of longitude .I don't know how to convert that to metres but it doesn't sound much. From looking at the picture it looks like he took a step or two forward. The change in elevation could be that he walked up an incline in the garden while raising the iPhone higher. Not sure how that proves a hoax.

I don't recall the OP ever saying he took these photos with a 'single push of the button' either. Where did that come from? Presumably he took each individual picture with a single push (i.e one push one photo) but not all pics with one push. He clearly states he didn't use auto-shutter.

The major discrepancy seems to be the 20 second gap although even that isn't inconsistent with anything he has said. Perception of time is notoriously subjective. Especially when we are excited, something can seem to last only a few seconds when it actually lasts much longer.

I'm not claiming that these photos are real or that this isn't a hoax but your post is the one the Mods have chosen as their reason for labelling the thread as such and banning the OP and to my mind the evidence you've presented is not sufficient to reach that conclusion.


edit on 13/4/2012 by MarrsAttax because: (no reason given)


I don't know how the locator works on iphones - whether it's true GPS, or some sort of pseudo GPS triangulating off of cell phone towers.

It's not unusual for GPS coordinates to "walk" while the receiver is actually stationary. The NAVSTAR constellation is about 22,200 kilometers above the Earth, and the satellites are constantly moving with a 12 hour orbit. Your position is determined by your place at the intersection of a minimum of 3 "shells" around the satellites You are at the point where all 3 intersect), which are constantly moving as the satellites orbit. Because of that motion, it appears that the receiver is moving when it really isn't. If I need precise coordinate for something, I usually let the receiver sit and average the position out over 15 minutes or more. On top of that, you are constantly acquiring new satellites as they orbit into view, and losing previous satellites as they orbit out of the line of sight.

A change in apparent position over a 20 second span isn't unusual, I've seen the elevation run through a range of 15 or 20 meters up or down over a couple of minutes, and a 1 meter variation isn't much at all.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 05:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by amongus
 


Mud will be slung - it's part of going out onto the field to begin with. I just bring a roll of paper towels for cleanup, and they can let it fly!


I did some rough calculations of the angular diameter in the various shots, and came up with:

"object1" - 0.937 degree

"object2" - 0.766 degree

"object3" - 1.1 degrees.

I used the figure of elevenaugust of a 43.9 degree field of view laterally in the photos. I determined the angular diameter using d= SQRT((x^2)+(y^2)) since none of the images had the object perfectly level for a straightforward measure of pixels, then took the figures produced by that (in pixels) and divided by the width of the photos (again in pixels) them multiplied the result by the 43.9 degree FOV figure to get results in degrees.

Then I used d = D(sin(theta)) to compute minimum and maximum possible diameters.

Using minimum and maximum distances of 15m (distance to the adjacent roof peak on the right) and 152m (distance to the center of the communications tower) respectively, I get a minimum size of 20 cm (about 8 inches) and a maximum size of 2.91m (about 9.57 feet). I'm betting on a diameter of around 28cm/ 11 inches, or slightly larger.

Someone else needs to check my math on that, though.




edit on 2012/4/12 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

Seems ok to me. Nicely done!

For the sake of math lovers, it would be nice to fully develop 'theta' in the formula 'd = D(sin(theta))' though.

Sorry for the off-topic, but I think that it would be a good idea for future studies to do a tutorial on how calculate size/distance of a given object when we have all the technical datas in the camera's EXIFs.

I'll do my part..


1- First step is to find the [lxL] sensor size of the camera

...which is not easy as technical datas are not always released by the manufacturer. For example, for the Iphone 4S, the sensor is, according to this source, a OV8830 which is a color CMOS 8Megapixels:


In full 8-megapixel (3264 x 2448) resolution, the OV8830 operates at 24 frames per second (fps) in a 4:3 format and in 6-megapixel (3264 x 1836) resolution at 30 fps in a 16:9 format. These higher frame rates enable a number of key benefits, including: no image lag for shutter-less designs, continuous shooting, minimized rolling shutter effect, real-time image capture with no lag between resolutions, and full HD at 30 or 60 fps....


Source: Omnivision Manufacturer

For the calculation of the sensor size, we need:
- the pixel size
- the max resolution
Both datas can be found, in our example, in the Omnivision site above.

Pixel size is of 1.4 µm or 0.0014mm
Max resolution is 3264 x 2448

Now let's multiply:
L= 0.0014x3264= 4.5696mm
l= 0.0014x2448= 3.4272mm

So the sensor size if 4.5696mmx3.4272mm

2- Second step is to calculate the FOV:

For this, you need:
- sensor size as calculated above
- focal length of the camera
- some reverse trigonometry maths


l= 3.4272 mm tall (referenced to landscape mode), then half that is 1.7136 mm. Focal length for the iPhone 4s is listed as 4.3 mm. So:
- atan(1.7136/4.3)= 21.727776 degrees from center to top, or 43.455552 degrees top to bottom.

L= 4.5696 mm long (referenced to landscape mode), then half is 2.2848 mm. So:
- atan(2.2848/4.3)= 27.983496 degrees center to side, or 55.966992 degrees left to right

So 55.97 degrees horizontal by 43.46 degrees vertical.

Now, nenothtu, it's up to you!



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:13 AM
link   

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Originally posted by webpirate
Not given a chance to defend
himself?



Can you explain why these look like iPhone apps and you have an iPhone and the file names have been changed? these are not original pictures. no phone would name the images "object 1, 2, 3"

And his answer is here.



ah yes. always wondered how this forum would react if i ever got any photographic evidence; i'm not going to bother explaining myself because really there haven't been any real questions raised.... make of it what you will.



and also here www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by RickyVelveeta
oh and i named the images 'object1, 2 and 3' because after i emailed them to myself and downloaded, the default download name was just the 'get-attatchment' thing that older macs do. i labelled them so i could find them in my downloads folder for the photobucket upload.


Sounds reasonable.


Originally posted by webpirate
And here are excerpts from the EXIF data to back up what I said about him moving.



  1. Object 1

    Date/Time 2012:04:11 13:41:36
    GPS Altitude 201 metres
    GPS Latitude 36"7'45.6
    GPS Longitude 86"47'33.6


  2. Object 2

    Date/Time 2012:04:11 13:41:16
    GPS Altitude 202 metres
    GPS Latitude 36"7'45.6
    GPS Longitude 86"47'34.2

  3. Object 3

    Date/Time 2012:04:11 13:41:15
    GPS Altitude 202 metres
    GPS Latitude 36"7'45.6
    GPS Longitude 86"47'34.2



Object 2 and 3 are one second apart in time, and have the exact same altitude, and GPS coordinates. Object 1, is
20 seconds LATER than 2 and 3 are, is 1 meter higher in elevation, and the GPS lat and long are slightly different.
This is in direct contrast to what the OP posted in this post here.



i wasn't using auto-shutter, just snapped as many pics as i could using my finger on the button so i guess there's not like a consistent framerate or whatever. as i said before, it was hovering for a few seconds and sorta turned up on the side and 'bounced' away. i was looking at my phone for the most part, trying to tap the screen in the right place to take the pics; it was all very fast.


These 3 images cover 21 seconds, 1 meter elevation difference, a slight movement in both latitude and longitude and could not have ALL been taken with a single push of the button. Even if the timing is "off" like he claimed, and they were indeed 3 consecutive images, one would have been blurry since he moved.

So he was...indeed given a chance very early on to prove himself. And he chose to dig a deeper hole.



edit on 12-4-2012 by webpirate because: formatting


I'm not sure why you've claimed the latitude is different. It's seems to be a consistent 36"7'45.6 in the figures you've given. So basically he has moved 0.6 of a second of longitude .I don't know how to convert that to metres but it doesn't sound much. From looking at the picture it looks like he took a step or two forward. The change in elevation could be that he walked up an incline in the garden while raising the iPhone higher. Not sure how that proves a hoax.

I don't recall the OP ever saying he took these photos with a 'single push of the button' either. Where did that come from? Presumably he took each individual picture with a single push (i.e one push one photo) but not all pics with one push. He clearly states he didn't use auto-shutter.

The major discrepancy seems to be the 20 second gap although even that isn't inconsistent with anything he has said. Perception of time is notoriously subjective. Especially when we are excited, something can seem to last only a few seconds when it actually lasts much longer.

I'm not claiming that these photos are real or that this isn't a hoax but your post is the one the Mods have chosen as their reason for labelling the thread as such and banning the OP and to my mind the evidence you've presented is not sufficient to reach that conclusion.


edit on 13/4/2012 by MarrsAttax because: (no reason given)


He also claimed the 'object' moved from right to left, while the timestamp on the images reveals that the 'object' moved from left to right ...



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:15 AM
link   
reply to post by nenothtu
 


Thanks for the info. I had my suspicions about the accuracy of GPS anyway but this is just one more reason to at least let the question remain open.

In my opinion what has happened here (and I see it a lot on this forum) is that certain people have decided that UFOs are not real, therefore any photo of one must be fake. They then feel justified in seizing upon any anomaly as 'proof'.

What frustrates me as well is how the original argument was that there are iPhone apps that can do this. Then the focus fell upon the (possibly inaccurate GPS) data. These arguments were presented as some kind of cumulative data even though no one could identify the app used or object model and SkepticalOverlord himself stated he thought it likely it wasn't an app (but a thrown object). That means the ban decision must have been taken entirely on the GPS data and the fact that the filenames were renamed (something for the OP gave a reasonable account) unless there is evidence that wasn't presented publicly?

So if the GPS data is questionable and the OP accounted for the renamed files where is the the clear cut evidence that a hoax has been perpetrated? There is none. But it matters not for it has been decreed from on high that it is a hoax therefore a hoax it is.

Some questions remain.

1) If this was a hoax why didn't the OP simply present the two photos where the GPS data corresponded perfectly and not the third photo (object1.jpg) which was taken as weakening his case?

2) If this was a hoax, why didn't the OP simply make a youtube video of the photos and watch the ad revenue roll in? Why subject himself to this?

3) If this was a hoax why did the OP go to the bother of collaborating with an unknown colleague to fake photos only to lose interest in the thread after a few posts?

4) What was the OP's motivation for pepetrating a hoax. What did he get out of it? What did his colleague get out of it?

5) Why was he apparently willing to risk having his account banned when he had been an active member since June 2011?

5) Why would he risk exposing his own identity and address for the sake of pulling the wool over the eyes of some internet strangers?

Of course the answer to most of these questions could be 'he didn't really think it through' but then again he put enough thought in it to concoct a story about his sick dog and even went so far as to produce evidence of that sickness as well as getting at least one other person to help him construct the photos.

On the one hand he is portrayed as a clever manipulator and storyteller but on the other he's not quite clever enough to make sure the gps data matches, to think through the possible consequences of his hoax or to foresee that somone might ask him about the renaming of the filenames. Strange.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by phalanx001
He also claimed the 'object' moved from right to left, while the timestamp on the images reveals that the 'object' moved from left to right ...


At no point does he claim the photos are of the moment the 'craft' left the scene.

The probabilities are of course overwhelming that this is a hoax and I'm probably fighting the wrong battle. I'm just frustrated that it appears to have been judged one based on a gut feeling rather than any specific evidence. And I don't like it when I'm told what to think about something. I'd rather make my own mind up. I agree with MegaMind when he said that the bar for banning someone should be pretty high and that the evidence doesn't appear to have reached that bar in this case.

I can see the case for banning people who try and use the site to try and generate revenue for themselves but I can't work out what the benefit to the OP was for perpetrating such a hoax nor what the benefit is of banning him (other than strict adherence to the letter of the law). Of course the owners have right to ban whoever they want; I'm just trying to wrap my head round it is all.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 06:35 AM
link   
Another one bites the dust.

But nevermind, maybe one day we'llget a real picture.



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 07:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by MarrsAttax

Originally posted by phalanx001
He also claimed the 'object' moved from right to left, while the timestamp on the images reveals that the 'object' moved from left to right ...


At no point does he claim the photos are of the moment the 'craft' left the scene.


Ok, i'll take my statement back as it is inconclusive whether the object moved back to the right after he took the third shot... He initially claimed right to left motion and then he supplemented his statement by stating that it exited as soon as he pointed his phone at it. I concluded left to right motion (based on photo timestamps) followed by an exit (based on supplementary exit statement below) - which is contrary to his story. I guess there is room for it to have moved back from the right to the left after he took the photos and before flying off ... Hope I got my lefts and rights right there




the strange part is it seemed to make an exit as soon as i pointed my iphone at it. i have no doubt whatsoever that it was hovering at least the entire time between me spotting it and taking the phone out my pocket/opening camera app and pointing.




The probabilities are of course overwhelming that this is a hoax and I'm probably fighting the wrong battle. I'm just frustrated that it appears to have been judged one based on a gut feeling rather than any specific evidence. And I don't like it when I'm told what to think about something. I'd rather make my own mind up.

'Gut feeling' is arguable depending on one's relative view ...



I agree with MegaMind when he said that the bar for banning someone should be pretty high and that the evidence doesn't appear to have reached that bar in this case.

Makes three of us.



I can see the case for banning people who try and use the site to try and generate revenue for themselves but I can't work out what the benefit to the OP was for perpetrating such a hoax nor what the benefit is of banning him (other than strict adherence to the letter of the law). Of course the owners have right to ban whoever they want; I'm just trying to wrap my head round it is all.

Could be potentially a publicity stunt - one that implicitly results in revenue generation as the OP is a musician (he actually makes a point of it) ...
edit on 13/4/2012 by phalanx001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 07:27 AM
link   
Reply to post by Human_Alien
 


In that link you shared, what does: Click Here To Renter More Text To Analyze mean? Is that a typo? Was it supposed to say Render? Or Re-enter?

Yeap just a typo, should say re-enter. Sorry for the overdue reply been on a gaming binge





 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 07:41 AM
link   
Reply to post by squidboy
 


Your welcome squidboy, if it wasn't for ats I would have never heard of this scanner. there is a thread about it on here somewhere. I would look for it but im on the mobile and im too lazy right now :p sorry




 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Apr, 13 2012 @ 09:02 AM
link   
Here is a section of one of the photos tweeked a bit in photoshop, to show the obvious artifacts from pasting the UFO onto the scene. DEBUNKED!





new topics

top topics



 
74
<< 33  34  35    37  38  39 >>

log in

join