Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by RyanFromCan
reply to post by LurkerLegacy

 

I provided a link to my quoted (non statistical, but rather factual medical) information, clearly you either did not see the link, chose not to look at it, or are incapable of reading or understanding it, but for your sake, I will link it again here for you.

Sex Chromosome Abnormalities

Funny enough, I never quoted numbers for anything, I simply provided a link to a site (from Palomar College) that dispelled the notion that XX or XY chromosomes are what defined men and women. I did not "pull" that information from my, or anyone else "ass", which clearly you are being. I think it might be best to ignore you to be honest, as clearly you have either failed to, or brought the wrong "ammunition" to this debate.

Feel free to continue when you can be bothered to make a coherent and interesting argument, your arguments as petty and dull.

I've argued the point of abnormal chromosomes. They don't want to hear it, or deny that its possible.

This is an internet forum, and the "popular" replies aren't always the most valid or factual. As an example, go through the thread and look at how many stars are given for blatantly ignorant statements. Compare that to what I've received as a real life doctor who has dealt with this issue on MANY occasions. It becomes obvious that people really don't care about right information, just information that fits their personal belief system.

I fear you are right, this is not so much about science and reality, but about long held taught phobias. I think many of the males here desperately trying to argue she is not a "real" woman are upset that they may be a little attracted to her, really, it is sexual insecurities, not facts that are fueling their side. Now with the women, I might be insecurities about their status as "real women" because this transwoman is just as (or possibly) more physically desirable than them, or someone they know, again, it goes to insecurities, and learned or taught phobias.

reply to post by ~Vixen~





That was the article YOU linked to and it stated MOST MTF do NOT have a cervix. I made

an assertion that no MTF's had a cervix because if they needed to have a CONSTRUCTED

vagina from the penis what are the chances they have a cervix or womb? More chance of

winning the lottery i would guess!...


This is a forum for discussion and i am as entitled as anyone to voice my opinion for what

it's worth. What gives you the qualifactions to judge 'my ignorance'? as you put it. Just

because i am on another wave length to you doesn't make my theories ANY LESS valid

than your's

Trust me i KNOW a MTF and others who have certain types of hormonal deficiencies, i

know homosexuals of both sexes, and a transvestite or two, my sister in law was unable

to have children.

Point me to a post of mine where i have said 'others do not have the right to self

determination - I have only stated my belief's which it appears you think i am not

entitled to do!!!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by RyanFromCan

 

Not being able to give birth is a weak argument at best, there are a great number of women, real women as people like would like to call them, that cannot have children, does that make them any lesser women, or maybe not "real" women?

That's already been asked and answered.... twice.

Any "real" woman has the potential to give birth, unless there are birth defects, injuries, or illnesses that get in the way of that. Any "transitioned" male to female has no potential, no possibility of giving birth. There is a huge difference. Also, see my post about all of the other health concerns. Does a transitioned woman have a potential of breast cancer? Do they need to suddenly start getting pap smears? Will they eventually go through menopause? Of course not, they are not women!

You fail to see that Transwomen are medically considered to be suffering from birth defect, maybe not visible ones (speaking of brain development, not the presence of a uterus, cervix, or penis), but that does not make them any less real. Just because you refuse to accept the scientific evidence that shows transgendedred people as suffering from a birth defect, does not mean it does not that they are not suffering from them.

Now, "real" women can be born without any potential to give birth, they can even be born witout a uterus or cervix.

Mullerian agenesis

Müllerian agenesis / Mayer-Rokitansky-Kuster-Hauser Syndrome

Müllerian agenesis is a congenital malformation in women characterised by a failure of the müllerian ducts to develop, resulting in a missing uterus and fallopian tubes and variable malformations of the upper portion of the vagina. It is the second most common cause of primary amenorrhoea after gonadal failure (such as from Turner syndrome). The condition is also called MRKH or Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser Syndrome

As far as your concern about breast cancer, you do not even need to be transgendered or a women to run the risk of breast cancer.

Canadian Cancer Society - Breast Cancer In Men

Men have breast tissue just like women, and can develop breast cancer. In Canada, less than 1% of all breast cancers occur in men. Breast cancer is most commonly diagnosed in men over 60, but can be found in men of all ages. As breast cancer is the same for both men and women, our information about risk factors, diagnosis, staging, and treatment are the same for both.

The women born without reproductive organs have the same need for pap smears as transwomen, and my father went through "menopause" during and after his prostate cancer treatment (hormonal treatments, much like a transwomen gets), in fact, it was a bit of a joke in the church because during fellowship, my father would sometimes be at the table with the older ladies talking about the effects. So yes, it is every bit possible that a transwoman will have to deal with the effects of menopause, get breast cancer, and maybe even when science has allowed the development, or transplanting of a uterus, even need to get pap smears.

The reality is, the ability to have children, the need to have pap smears, the potential to get breast cancer, osteoporosis, and many other illness or "sex" based issues do not measure the "womaness" of a woman, or the "maleness" of a man, it is so much more than that, you only have to do a little research, and put aside your learned phobias and preconceived notions, open you mind, and you might actually see them.

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

That was the article YOU linked to and it stated MOST MTF do NOT have a cervix. I made

an assertion that no MTF's had a cervix because if they needed to have a CONSTRUCTED

vagina from the penis what are the chances they have a cervix or womb? More chance of

winning the lottery i would guess!...


This is a forum for discussion and i am as entitled as anyone to voice my opinion for what

it's worth. What gives you the qualifactions to judge 'my ignorance'? as you put it. Just

because i am on another wave length to you doesn't make my theories ANY LESS valid

than your's

Trust me i KNOW a MTF and others who have certain types of hormonal deficiencies, i

know homosexuals of both sexes, and a transvestite or two, my sister in law was unable

to have children.

Point me to a post of mine where i have said 'others do not have the right to self

determination - I have only stated my belief's which it appears you think i am not

entitled to do!!!

Your arrogant attempt to discredit the validity of who I am pisses me off, because it's not very different to those who work to to deny others of their identity.

Yours was an absolute statement: (i would go as far as to say NO MTF transgender patient has a cervix )

I contend that you are wrong.

Having an opinion is fine, but when you belittle my legitimately earned credentials by stating:
"tut..tut..tut..tut and you being a doctor......" I become very offended, especially when my firsthand experiences prove otherwise.

reply to post by RyanFromCan






Using your own expression "real" women are NOT insecure about their status as you claim

Most of them full fill themselves when they 'reproduce' - it is built into their physce...you know

tick-tock tick-tock the biological clock!!

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

Like the OP said, what about pedophiles they are born that way too, should be accept them and allow them to do whatever they want, all in the name of being politically correct? And where is the line drawn? and if you can make acceptions with one, what gives you the moral athority to deny another?

The difference is, a transgendered woman is not harming you, your children. A child molester (notice I did not say pedophile) is harming someone that is not capable of protecting, or understanding what is happening to them.

A pedophile is not necessarily a "criminal" or child molester, have you ever looked at 15 year old girl and said "wow, she is hot", congrats, you are now a pedophile, now, if you never do anything, you may be considered a pedophile, but not a child molester. Now, if you get that same girl drunk, and feel her up, you are now a child molester.

Pedophilia is a mental illness, a person suffering from that illness does not need to harm a child to be a pedophile, it simply means they are attracted to children sexually, and that in itself while making most uncomfortable, is not illegal, molesting children is.

Pedophile does not automatically equal child molester, and a child molester is not automatically a pedophile. The difference is between thoughts, and actions, and the consequences (harm) ones actions create.

You must be an delicate individual if a transwomen entering a beauty competition will cause you great pain, distress and emotional harm, or are you afraid she can kick you butt?

reply to post by ~Vixen~





If you cannot accept that others have opposing views to your's you shouldn't be on a forum

You are quite prepared to state your views, others have a right to reply.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

Mind our own Business? They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD......... And we are to mind our own business? So if we DONT agree then there is something wrong with US......... Ahh ok..........right I see how that works..........so its ok to pass judgement on us , for those that think that its sick........ But NOT ok for us to say that WE dont agree with them....... Awesome hypocrisy there.......

Funny, I see the hypocrisy too, I feel the same about these pageants overall, "They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD........."[sic], they are meat markets for women and degrading to many, but you don't often hear us lefties crying about our right to impose our book thumping beliefs on people, we only ask for respect for our neighbors and fellow mankind, hey wait, isn't there a line about that in the Good Book?

As it happens I am a Christian, and feel that these meat shows are not exactly respectful to women, and definitely not humble or modest.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


Actually, Canadian LAW says she is a woman and recognizes her as such, and being this is a competition in Canada, It is safe to assume Canadian equality and discrimination laws have to be followed. She did not lie on her application, it did not ask if she was born a woman to my knowledge, only if she was a woman, and legally, she is. It is something she is and has been open about, and in the past had done interviews about her status as a transgendered individual, it is not like she was hiding some big secret, it was public knowledge.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by Furbs

 

nono I completely understand

But it is an event intended for the public...........and for people to claim for us to MIND our own business , when its an event MEANT for the public at large.......is ridiculous..........

Anything else is just arguing semantics, because the truth is truth.......

Its a Miss Universe Contest, the name says it all

You are wrong, this is not the "Miss Universe Pageant" as you seem to think, but rather the "Miss Universe Canada Pageant", there is a difference.

Originally posted by RyanFromCan
really, it is sexual insecurities, not facts

So the fact that i would be appalled by the thought getting it on with a transsexual is due to "sexual insecurities?

Good one, made me laugh...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Nothing tricky about this at all. An organization gets to set the rules for its contents themselves unless we live in a totalitarian state now. If the organization says "Our game rules are we allow transgenders" thats fine. If they say "Our game rules are we dont allow transgenders" thats fine. No outsider gets to determine a companies game rules in a free country.

With respect, while you are right, those rules cannot contravene the laws of the land, such as discrimination laws, and the transgendered contestant is acknowledged by law in Canada, the jurisdiction for this competition, as a woman.

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by RyanFromCan

 

Using your own expression "real" women are NOT insecure about their status as you claim

Most of them full fill themselves when they 'reproduce' - it is built into their physce...you know

tick-tock tick-tock the biological clock!!

So women who cannot reproduce cannot be fulfilled women? The act of giving birth confirms the femininity? What bunk! You are terribly narrow minded, my opinion of course.

Originally posted by flexy123

Originally posted by RyanFromCan
really, it is sexual insecurities, not facts

So the fact that i would be appalled by the thought getting it on with a transsexual is due to "sexual insecurities?

Good one, made me laugh...

edit on 7-4-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

Your ignorance shines through, we are not talking about transvestites, but rather about transgendered people, and as it happens, you statement is exactly what I was talking about, you just proved my point for me, Thank you, no really, Thank you.

It is your leaned disgust, not their ability to please you, that makes you think the way you think, a learned insecurity. If you had sex with a transgendered woman, and enjoyed it, but found out after she had once had the body of a man, would it actually make the sex you had any less enjoyable, or would your insecurities turn you pleasure to disgust?

Originally posted by RyanFromCan
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

 

Mind our own Business? They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD......... And we are to mind our own business? So if we DONT agree then there is something wrong with US......... Ahh ok..........right I see how that works..........so its ok to pass judgement on us , for those that think that its sick........ But NOT ok for us to say that WE dont agree with them....... Awesome hypocrisy there.......

Funny, I see the hypocrisy too, I feel the same about these pageants overall, "They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD........."[sic], they are meat markets for women and degrading to many, but you don't often hear us lefties crying about our right to impose our book thumping beliefs on people, we only ask for respect for our neighbors and fellow mankind, hey wait, isn't there a line about that in the Good Book?

As it happens I am a Christian, and feel that these meat shows are not exactly respectful to women, and definitely not humble or modest.

Amen brother the only reason this is accepted more than any other "transformation" is because its been pushed down our throat with homosexuality since ancient rome and ever before. In India there still certain village where they will dress 12 years old boys with woman clothing and tie small bells around their wrist and have them sing and dance like women and the politicians and rich people will gather in circle and will bid on whom will have the child for the night...

Even though its accepted over there and you can even but VHS casettes everywhere on the street of such activities because its widely done over there doesn't make it right in the most fundamental ways...

I a man but I share my native ancestors belief whom had great respect for feminine gender. I strongly feel that trans-sexualism is an insult to all natively born women and the same thing toward men when done from woman to man...

I think the mentality of changing yourself completely into something you'll never REALLY be and expecting people to accept you and desire you as if you were a born woman is as arrogant and disrespectful than the catholic priests that forced their religion upon my people back in the days.

What makes you belief that you weren't already a women in your last incarnation and now you have to life through as a man to complete your evolution cycle? That's if you believe in those things of course...

If tomorrow I "transform" myself in a black man then the native blacks will be offended because its their identity not mine and they'll be right.

If 100 years ago I would of changed myself into a white man I would of bent burnt alive and the white people wouldn't of even peed on me to choke the flames...

Just because Hollywood's propaganda has watered it down and its now more socially accepted since its more mainstream I don't think its even right in first place... I don't elaborate because my view is that it could be treated but hey that just my humble opinion...

Originally posted by _R4t_
Amen brother the only reason this is accepted more than any other "transformation" is because its been pushed down our throat with homosexuality since ancient rome and ever before. In India there still certain village where they will dress 12 years old boys with woman clothing and tie small bells around their wrist and have them sing and dance like women and the politicians and rich people will gather in circle and will bid on whom will have the child for the night…

So you find it acceptable to equate someone changing genders with someone raping children? This is your thought process? I don't even know how to respond to something so asinine.

Even though its accepted over there and you can even but VHS casettes everywhere on the street of such activities because its widely done over there doesn't make it right in the most fundamental ways…

Absolutely right. It is wrong to hurt children. How does someone changing their gender hurt children?

I a man but I share my native ancestors belief whom had great respect for feminine gender. I strongly feel that trans-sexualism is an insult to all natively born women and the same thing toward men when done from woman to man…

You are perfectly within your rights to think that. Just as I am perfectly within my rights to accept anyone that chooses to change their gender. To each his or her own.

I think the mentality of changing yourself completely into something you'll never REALLY be and expecting people to accept you and desire you as if you were a born woman is as arrogant and disrespectful than the catholic priests that forced their religion upon my people back in the days.

No one changes their gender expecting people to be okay with it.. People change their genders expecting to be ridiculed, beaten, and maybe even killed. They do it in spite of the dangers. They do it for themselves, not to be accepted by you.

I find you analogy to Catholic Missionaries misguided at best. So, someone simply changing their gender is someone worse to you than a Catholic Missionary forcing your people to forget their own ways and to believe in Jesus? Again, I don't really know how you can compare the two, as no one is forcing you to accept anything.

What makes you belief that you weren't already a women in your last incarnation and now you have to life through as a man to complete your evolution cycle? That's if you believe in those things of course…

You are kind of reaching now..

If tomorrow I "transform" myself in a black man then the native blacks will be offended because its their identity not mine and they'll be right.

Glad you can speak for all 'native blacks'. I can't, but I can assure you that not everyone would be offended, as it is hard to get ALL of ANY group of people to feel the same way about ANYTHING.

If 100 years ago I would of changed myself into a white man I would of bent burnt alive and the white people wouldn't of even peed on me to choke the flames…

Really? You vulgar analogy here is suspect. Had you been able to change into a white man [sic] you would most likely have enjoyed all of the benefits and freedoms afforded to other white men of the time. I don't really understand what you mean about being burned at the stake.

Just because Hollywood's propaganda has watered it down and its now more socially accepted since its more mainstream I don't think its even right in first place... I don't elaborate because my view is that it could be treated but hey that just my humble opinion...

It is treated with gender reassignment.

Originally posted by _R4t_

Originally posted by RyanFromCan
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

 

Mind our own Business? They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD......... And we are to mind our own business? So if we DONT agree then there is something wrong with US......... Ahh ok..........right I see how that works..........so its ok to pass judgement on us , for those that think that its sick........ But NOT ok for us to say that WE dont agree with them....... Awesome hypocrisy there.......

Funny, I see the hypocrisy too, I feel the same about these pageants overall, "They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD........."[sic], they are meat markets for women and degrading to many, but you don't often hear us lefties crying about our right to impose our book thumping beliefs on people, we only ask for respect for our neighbors and fellow mankind, hey wait, isn't there a line about that in the Good Book?

As it happens I am a Christian, and feel that these meat shows are not exactly respectful to women, and definitely not humble or modest.

Amen brother the only reason this is accepted more than any other "transformation" is because its been pushed down our throat with homosexuality since ancient rome and ever before. In India there still certain village where they will dress 12 years old boys with woman clothing and tie small bells around their wrist and have them sing and dance like women and the politicians and rich people will gather in circle and will bid on whom will have the child for the night...

Even though its accepted over there and you can even but VHS casettes everywhere on the street of such activities because its widely done over there doesn't make it right in the most fundamental ways...

I a man but I share my native ancestors belief whom had great respect for feminine gender. I strongly feel that trans-sexualism is an insult to all natively born women and the same thing toward men when done from woman to man...

I think the mentality of changing yourself completely into something you'll never REALLY be and expecting people to accept you and desire you as if you were a born woman is as arrogant and disrespectful than the catholic priests that forced their religion upon my people back in the days.

What makes you belief that you weren't already a women in your last incarnation and now you have to life through as a man to complete your evolution cycle? That's if you believe in those things of course...

If tomorrow I "transform" myself in a black man then the native blacks will be offended because its their identity not mine and they'll be right.

If 100 years ago I would of changed myself into a white man I would of bent burnt alive and the white people wouldn't of even peed on me to choke the flames...

Just because Hollywood's propaganda has watered it down and its now more socially accepted since its more mainstream I don't think its even right in first place... I don't elaborate because my view is that it could be treated but hey that just my humble opinion...

edit on 7-4-2012 by _R4t_ because: (no reason given)

With you quoting my reply to "ManBehindTheMask" then writing what you did, I think you completely missed the flavour and intent of my post, you might want to go back and read it.

Originally posted by RyanFromCan

Originally posted by _R4t_

Originally posted by RyanFromCan
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

 

Mind our own Business? They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD......... And we are to mind our own business? So if we DONT agree then there is something wrong with US......... Ahh ok..........right I see how that works..........so its ok to pass judgement on us , for those that think that its sick........ But NOT ok for us to say that WE dont agree with them....... Awesome hypocrisy there.......

Funny, I see the hypocrisy too, I feel the same about these pageants overall, "They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD........."[sic], they are meat markets for women and degrading to many, but you don't often hear us lefties crying about our right to impose our book thumping beliefs on people, we only ask for respect for our neighbors and fellow mankind, hey wait, isn't there a line about that in the Good Book?

As it happens I am a Christian, and feel that these meat shows are not exactly respectful to women, and definitely not humble or modest.

Amen brother the only reason this is accepted more than any other "transformation" is because its been pushed down our throat with homosexuality since ancient rome and ever before. In India there still certain village where they will dress 12 years old boys with woman clothing and tie small bells around their wrist and have them sing and dance like women and the politicians and rich people will gather in circle and will bid on whom will have the child for the night...

Even though its accepted over there and you can even but VHS casettes everywhere on the street of such activities because its widely done over there doesn't make it right in the most fundamental ways...

I a man but I share my native ancestors belief whom had great respect for feminine gender. I strongly feel that trans-sexualism is an insult to all natively born women and the same thing toward men when done from woman to man...

I think the mentality of changing yourself completely into something you'll never REALLY be and expecting people to accept you and desire you as if you were a born woman is as arrogant and disrespectful than the catholic priests that forced their religion upon my people back in the days.

What makes you belief that you weren't already a women in your last incarnation and now you have to life through as a man to complete your evolution cycle? That's if you believe in those things of course...

If tomorrow I "transform" myself in a black man then the native blacks will be offended because its their identity not mine and they'll be right.

If 100 years ago I would of changed myself into a white man I would of bent burnt alive and the white people wouldn't of even peed on me to choke the flames...

Just because Hollywood's propaganda has watered it down and its now more socially accepted since its more mainstream I don't think its even right in first place... I don't elaborate because my view is that it could be treated but hey that just my humble opinion...

edit on 7-4-2012 by _R4t_ because: (no reason given)

With you quoting my reply to "ManBehindTheMask" then writing what you did, I think you completely missed the flavour and intent of my post, you might want to go back and read it.

Yes your right I did miss-interpret I'm dual tasking and speed read both post and I assumed your were supporting ManBehindTheMask's post.

I regret but I support his views that its sick and add the content of my post from there. I'm surprised though that with your religious belief you are supportive didn't the Deuteronomy 2:25 says

"A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."

???

Originally posted by RyanFromCan
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

 

Like the OP said, what about pedophiles they are born that way too, should be accept them and allow them to do whatever they want, all in the name of being politically correct? And where is the line drawn? and if you can make acceptions with one, what gives you the moral athority to deny another?

The difference is, a transgendered woman is not harming you, your children. A child molester (notice I did not say pedophile) is harming someone that is not capable of protecting, or understanding what is happening to them.

A pedophile is not necessarily a "criminal" or child molester, have you ever looked at 15 year old girl and said "wow, she is hot", congrats, you are now a pedophile, now, if you never do anything, you may be considered a pedophile, but not a child molester. Now, if you get that same girl drunk, and feel her up, you are now a child molester.

Pedophilia is a mental illness, a person suffering from that illness does not need to harm a child to be a pedophile, it simply means they are attracted to children sexually, and that in itself while making most uncomfortable, is not illegal, molesting children is.

Pedophile does not automatically equal child molester, and a child molester is not automatically a pedophile. The difference is between thoughts, and actions, and the consequences (harm) ones actions create.

You must be an delicate individual if a transwomen entering a beauty competition will cause you great pain, distress and emotional harm, or are you afraid she can kick you butt?

First of all, who are you to decide which is a mental illness and whats not? Just because you deem one worthy and another isnt?

Second......i love the personal attack at the end of your post..........you might want to scale that back....
it looks like you are struggling to make your case....

If you ahd read ALL my posts, you would know by now that it makes no difference to me, im playing the devils advocate here and arguing logic.........

You would also know that ive addressed EVERYTHING in this post before hand.........and will not waste my time to do so again........

Might want to chill out on the personal stuff.....ATS doesnt take too kindly to that

reply to post by RyanFromCan

You fail to see that Transwomen are medically considered to be suffering from birth defect,

You lost me at your first sentence. If someone is born of the quite rare condition where they have both sexes and a surgery must be performed at birth to assign a sex, then yes, it is a medical problem. If someone is born all male, and they somehow get a psychological condition later in life that makes them wish they were a woman, it is certainly not a "medical" condition, it is barely a psychological condition, and I don't believe it even then. I don't believe in ADD, or ADHD, or Depression, or many other things that have miraculous pills or surgeries to cure these days.

Sorry, you are welcome to believe what you want, but to me, that is just plain silliness and people need to deal with their problems, not get pills or intrusive surgeries to fix something that only exists in their mind.