Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

reply to post by RyanFromCan

Not being able to give birth is a weak argument at best, there are a great number of women, real women as people like would like to call them, that cannot have children, does that make them any lesser women, or maybe not "real" women?

That's already been asked and answered.... twice.

Any "real" woman has the potential to give birth, unless there are birth defects, injuries, or illnesses that get in the way of that. Any "transitioned" male to female has no potential, no possibility of giving birth. There is a huge difference. Also, see my post about all of the other health concerns. Does a transitioned woman have a potential of breast cancer? Do they need to suddenly start getting pap smears? Will they eventually go through menopause? Of course not, they are not women!

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Any "transitioned" male to female has no potential, no possibility of giving birth. There is a huge difference. Also, see my post about all of the other health concerns. Does a transitioned woman have a potential of breast cancer? Do they need to suddenly start getting pap smears? Will they eventually go through menopause? Of course not, they are not women!

Are you absolutely sure that all children are correctly classified in the appropriate sex when they were born? I'd say many are NOT, especially those that suffer from intersex abnormalities. These people are real, and they should be allowed to correct that error without prejudice.

Do transitioned women have the potential for breast cancer? YES, and in fact hormones often leads to increased risk of breast cancer. As far as pap smears, that depends, but in some cases the answer is also YES. Hormones can also be responsible for menopausal symptoms, so YES again.

May I ask what the benefit is of strictly classifying everyone into one one of two categories? There are over 3 BILLION men and 3 BILLION women on this planet, and there are MILLIONS who just don't fit into the two sex classifications that most of society supports. We shouldn't deny these people the right to self determination. Even the transsexuals in Iran are granted full legal recognition in their new sex after surgery, and their government pays for half the costs!

Unfortunately the same doesn't apply in the "civilized" west where many insurance carriers won't cover surgery, where many states refuse legal recognition, and where people who aren't affected by someones sex reassignment vocally fight to deny others the right to self determination, peace of mind and happiness.

Who we are as individuals is much more relevant than what a doctor declared we are after a quick genital inspection. (But that's just my opinion)

reply to post by ~Vixen~

Are you absolutely sure that all children are correctly classified in the appropriate sex when they were born? I'd say many are NOT, especially those that suffer from intersex abnormalities. These people are real, and they should be allowed to correct that error without prejudice.

love this - I couldn't agree more

We are still confused to the point of being irrational when it comes to sex and gender issues - but, we crossed a line a long time ago - we humans. So - what is and isn't normal - for the humans now?

Only some people are allowed to have things corrected and not others - based on what is and isn't considered normal? :-)

It's OK to have all the the transplants, reconstructive surgery is OK - fake corneas, hips, knees...all the artificial things put inside to make things work - catheters and pacemakers - on and on...

Hair transplants :-)

Laser hair removal, nose jobs, implants of all kinds, not to mention all the other purely aesthetic things we have done to ourselves on a daily basis

But, if it's for something sexual - well - that is out of line. That person is no longer authentic? :-)

what does it mean to be an authentic woman? Is it just physical - are we livestock? Or - is it something else? I saw her photos... She believes she is a woman because she feels like a woman. She knows she's a woman the same way I know I am a woman

Nobody wants to be a woman - or wants to be a man

As far as beauty pageants go - they may be silly, sexist and anachronistic things that we can sneer at because we should be above all that now. But - what a silly argument really - we love our beautiful people - don't we? That much is just human

Letting this woman participate would be symbolic. It would mark the beginning of real change in how we people can accept and include everyone. It might not happen this time - but somebody had to be the first to make a move

What a brave person she is

reply to post by ~Vixen~

Are you absolutely sure that all children are correctly classified in the appropriate sex when they were born? I'd say many are NOT, especially those that suffer from intersex abnormalities. These people are real, and they should be allowed to correct that error without prejudice.

Just because someone FEELS like a dog, doesnt mean they are a dog.........

Just because someone FEELS like they are a werewolf, doesnt mean they are a werewolf...

Why is it with THOSE cases we consider it an illness........but in the case of transgender we MUST treat it as something different and accept it, and not ONLY accept it, make concessions for it?

Like the OP said, what about pedophiles they are born that way too, should be accept them and allow them to do whatever they want, all in the name of being politically correct? And where is the line drawn? and if you can make acceptions with one, what gives you the moral athority to deny another?

On another note, dont these people have their own pageants? Im pretty sure if you are female you cant enter a transgender/drag pageant and even be considered.......

Why should people make allowances for them where they do not?

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

Are you absolutely sure that all children are correctly classified in the appropriate sex when they were born? I'd say many are NOT, especially those that suffer from intersex abnormalities. These people are real, and they should be allowed to correct that error without prejudice.

Just because someone FEELS like a dog, doesnt mean they are a dog.........

Just because someone FEELS like they are a werewolf, doesnt mean they are a werewolf...

Why is it with THOSE cases we consider it an illness........but in the case of transgender we MUST treat it as something different and accept it, and not ONLY accept it, make concessions for it?

Like the OP said, what about pedophiles they are born that way too, should be accept them and allow them to do whatever they want, all in the name of being politically correct? And where is the line drawn? and if you can make acceptions with one, what gives you the moral athority to deny another?

On another note, dont these people have their own pageants? Im pretty sure if you are female you cant enter a transgender/drag pageant and even be considered.......

Why should people make allowances for them where they do not?

Just because you call them a man doesn't make them male. Are you saying that you have a better understanding of who they are then they themselves do?

You call it an illness and pass judgement based on ignorance of science. That's your prerogative to do so, however it doesn't make that judgement right or respectful. Believe if you wish that all people are born perfect, and deny that there is any variance whatsoever. Most of us know that that would be a statement of ignorance. They aren't asking your permission to be themselves, they're just asking for you to mind your own business and leave them to determine their own destiny. Is it your place to judge them for who they are? What gives you that right?

You compare transsexuals to pedophiles as if they've done something horribly criminal, but unlike a criminal that preys on helpless kids, you're dealing with individuals who aren't bothering anyone and have committed no crime. The two are very different, and I find your analogy hateful and vile.

Again, no "exceptions" need to be made by you. They're not asking for your approval, just that you mind your own business. They don't try to dictate how you live, so why dictate how they live? Don't like what they look like? Stop gawking. Don't like them in pageants? Don't watch it.

Those pageants are nothing but sexist shows that cater to the immoral fantasies of the "morally superior" people anyway.

Not a tricky social issue at all. She lied on the application form, said that she was a "natural born female" when she wasn't.

Should have been enough to keep her out of the contest, as any one else who lied on the application form would be excluded, and have been in the past, but The Donald caved to popular pressure and let her take part.

I'm thinking he didn't want the negative publicity that was building in response to them kicking her out, when they were legally justified in doing so.

reply to post by Partygirl


As a completely straight man, these 'guys' are attractive. But I personally don't feel they have any place in a competition for women, because no matter how you look at it, they're still men. It's like being transgendered and expecting women to not be shocked when you stand and take a pee in the women's WC.

We gotta quit being so PC about everything. It is sad for them on a personal level I agree. But like I said above, in the end they're not women anymore then you and I are horses even when we dress up like one.

reply to post by ~Vixen~

Just because you call them a man doesn't make them male

No their XY chromosomes do...........

You guys scream about science and technology and how it can change people who feel they are an opposite gender, but then want to disregard it just as quick when it doesnt conform to your own ideology

Change what you want, hes STILL MALE..........he can feel like a Falcon, but hes not a falcon

Again, no "exceptions" need to be made by you. They're not asking for your approval, just that you mind your own business. They don't try to dictate how you live, so why dictate how they live? Don't like what they look like? Stop gawking. Don't like them in pageants? Don't watch it.

Mind our own Business? They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD.........

And we are to mind our own business?

So if we DONT agree then there is something wrong with US.........

Ahh ok..........right I see how that works..........so its ok to pass judgement on us , for those that think that its sick........

But NOT ok for us to say that WE dont agree with them.......

Awesome hypocrisy there.......

Right, Im a male, and I have all my parts, and i enjoy being a male, and there is something wrong with ME because I think there is something wrong with someone joining a FEMALE pageant , who is a male thats just chopped off his organ and took hormones.........

Right, theres something wrong with ME and my thinking........

Im told to mind MY own business even tho hes a transvestite entering a competition MADE FOR THE PUBLIC.......

What the hell is this world coming to?

You compare transsexuals to pedophiles as if they've done something horribly criminal, but unlike a criminal that preys on helpless kids, you're dealing with individuals who aren't bothering anyone and have committed no crime. The two are very different, and I find your analogy hateful and vile.

apparently your "moral" superiority is not allowing you to see the facts here and youre being deliberately obtuse....

You see its NOT a comparison...........the point is, each is claimed to be "born" that way.........

Where do you draw the line between "sick" and NOT sick" and who gives you that authority.........if they are BOTH born that way and you advocate for one, why wouldnt you advocate for the other.......

My point is BOTH are sick, you cant just PICK one because you get to decide your "tolerance"

Or one is less "criminal" so it makes it ok.........

Sickness is sickness..........again.........people can claim to be aliens, dogs, cats, or crocodiles......and claim they were BORN and feel that way........

it doesnt make it so...........and WE shouldnt be forced to "accept" it or called other names because other people refuse to call it for what it is...........

You want US to be tolerant , yet YOU are not tolerant of OUR thoughts on it.....

Funny that

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

Again, no "exceptions" need to be made by you. They're not asking for your approval, just that you mind your own business. They don't try to dictate how you live, so why dictate how they live? Don't like what they look like? Stop gawking. Don't like them in pageants? Don't watch it.

Mind our own Business? They are making a spectacle of themselves ina PUBLIC show, aired ALL OVER THE WORLD.........

And we are to mind our own business?

So if we DONT agree then there is something wrong with US.........

Ahh ok..........right I see how that works..........so its ok to pass judgement on us , for those that think that its sick........

But NOT ok for us to say that WE dont agree with them.......

Awesome hypocrisy there.......

Right, Im a male, and I have all my parts, and i enjoy being a male, and there is something wrong with ME because I think there is something wrong with someone joining a FEMALE pageant , who is a male thats just chopped off his organ and took hormones.........

Right, theres something wrong with ME and my thinking........

Im told to mind MY own business even tho hes a transvestite entering a competition MADE FOR THE PUBLIC.......

What the hell is this world coming to?

edit on 7-4-2012 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)

Actually most transvestites are straight males.

Again, if you don't like it, don't watch. These people have a right to treated with basic human dignity. You would move to deny them that basic courtesy because of prejudice, and I feel that's wrong. If you opened your mind to accept medical science, you'd know that theirs is not a sexual fetish. It's a medical condition with a prescribed treatment. Do you deny people with birth defects common courtesy? Why or why not?

Are they like you? NO
Am I like you? NO

Using your line of reasoning, then, I must not be worthy of common courtesy either,

They've done NOTHING to you, so why the hostility towards them?

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

Just because someone FEELS like a dog, doesnt mean they are a dog.........
Just because someone FEELS like they are a werewolf, doesnt mean they are a werewolf...

those examples don't apply to this situation

She feels like a female human - please explain how she's wrong to feel this way

Why is it with THOSE cases we consider it an illness........but in the case of transgender we MUST treat it as something different and accept it, and not ONLY accept it, make concessions for it?

Again - because they're human - and they're not claiming that they are anything other than human. Because they're not harming anybody else - they only want to be accepted. Because nature isn't always as simple as we would like it to be

We want things to be understandable - definable - recognizable. We love categories - and we feel most comfortable being able to place ourselves in those categories so we can either accept, include and praise that which is like us while at the same time condemning, excluding and punishing that which is not like us

We are mean

But it's natural to be mean. What's also natural is that humanity has been on a forward march since the beginning. We change - our reality changes - and how we view ourselves changes with every new thing we learn. This - fortunately - changes our behavior and how we treat each other

Someday we will be so much less mean than we are now

Androphilic MtF transsexuals

Studies have consistently shown that specifically androphilic male-to-female transsexuals (sometimes confusingly called homosexual MtF transsexuals in studies) show a shift towards the female direction in brain anatomy. In 2009, a German team of radiologists led by Gizewski compared 12 androphilic transsexuals with 12 biological males and 12 biological females. Using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), they found that when shown erotica, the biological men responded in several brain regions that the biological women did not, and that the sample of androphilic transsexuals was shifted towards the female direction in brain responses.

en.wikipedia.org...-based_studies

this entire section is worth reading: en.wikipedia.org...-based_theories

We know more now than we used to - we are going to learn so much more in the future. In the meantime - why assume that someone is trying to put something over on you? Or that you're being forced to accept something? No one is forcing anything - it's a very gradual process - this is going to be tomorrow's normal

Ask yourself - why would anyone go to this much trouble to be what they feel they really are if it wasn't vitally important to them?

Like the OP said, what about pedophiles they are born that way too, should be accept them and allow them to do whatever they want, all in the name of being politically correct? And where is the line drawn? and if you can make acceptions with one, what gives you the moral athority to deny another?

It may be that that pedophiles are natural. Not a popular position - I know. Just the same - what about some mercy and compassion if acceptance isn't possible? Maybe it's time we stop looking at the world as if it's drawn down the middle between monsters and angels. And, it's not the same situation here - is it? Transgendered people harm no one - it's not a crime. There are no victims

On another note, dont these people have their own pageants?

These people?

Why should people make allowances for them where they do not?

Because they're people. Because they're living their lives as either women or men - and it harms no one to treat them the way we would treat anyone else. And because - if a woman is pretty enough to compete in a pageant - and she really wants to - where's the harm? It's not like she's going to be used as breeding stock after the show - is she?

There's a member here who has in their signature: Evolve - or get out of line. Have to say - I love that :-)

reply to post by ~Vixen~

Actually most transvestites are straight males. Again, if you don't like it, don't watch. These people have a right to treated with basic human dignity. You would move to deny them that basic courtesy because of prejudice, and I feel that's wrong. If you opened your mind to accept medical science, you'd know that theirs is not a sexual fetish. It's a medical condition with a prescribed treatment. Do you deny people with birth defects common courtesy? Why or why not? Are they like you? NO Am I like you? NO Using your line of reasoning, then, I must not be worthy of common courtesy either, They've done NOTHING to you, so why the hostility towards them?

Actually I have no hostility towards them at all, what they do is their own business and as far as im concerned it doesnt affect me one way or the other......

My point is that you cant sit here and tell us "well just dont watch" and "mind your business" when its a public event made for FEMALES.........this guy isnt a female no matter what he does.......

I never said anything about predjudice or courtesy...........the guy wants them to change the rules for a FEMALE competition because he FEELS hes a female!

So now its PREJUDICE , for an all female competition to be ............ALL FEMALE?

there you go again.........there must be something wrong with ME, because I dont accept that this MAN is a female, and that HE shouldnt be entered into a FEMALE competition......

Thats the INTOLERANT line of thinking............you guys claim to want tolerance, yet are the first to be prejudice and descriminate against me, and call ME names, and tell me somethings wrong with ME if i dont agree with you..

Give me a break

Just to clarify once again, I really dont care what he does, it has no effect on me, nor does any other transvestite anywhere else......

I believe people have a right to do what makes them happy.........

Im just arguing for the sake of this whole PC bullcrap out there that we have to deal with.......

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


You assume she is male because she was classified as male at birth. While we assume that she probably has XY chromosomes, that really is irrelevant considering that there ARE XY females and XX males in the world.

Lacking proof we shouldn't make assumptions, and even if we were to make assumptions, it isn't right to deny her the right to self determination based on our feelings.

We're lucky in that we're not afflicted with conflicts in our sexuality, however I just feel that it's nobody elses business to decide their sex for them, nor should others display disrespect for them by calling them men. If they say they're women and want to deal with the crap I do, that's ok with me as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights or privacy of others.

reply to post by ~Vixen~





Pap Smear

A pap smear is a microscopic examination of cells scraped from the opening of the

cervix. The cervix is the lower part of the uterus [womb] that opens at the top of the

vagina.

You may not need to have a pap smear if you have had a total hysterectomy [uterus

and cervix removed]

The transgendered female has NONE OF THOSE ORGANS mentioned above


tut..tut..tut..tut and you being a doctor......

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
My point is that you cant sit here and tell us "well just dont watch" and "mind your business" when its a public event made for FEMALES.........this guy isnt a female no matter what he does.......

This is not a public event. This is a private organization owned by Donald Trump.

And Trump said she can compete.

Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

Pap Smear

A pap smear is a microscopic examination of cells scraped from the opening of the

cervix. The cervix is the lower part of the uterus [womb] that opens at the top of the

vagina.

You may not need to have a pap smear if you have had a total hysterectomy [uterus

and cervix removed]

The transgendered female has NONE OF THOSE ORGANS mentioned above


tut..tut..tut..tut and you being a doctor......

I am a doctor.

Maybe I don't have the right o wear the title, however, because other people certainly know better than I.

(A 15 second Google search yielded this result)

Transsexual Pap Smear

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
My point is that you cant sit here and tell us "well just dont watch" and "mind your business" when its a public event made for FEMALES.........this guy isnt a female no matter what he does.......

This is not a public event. This is a private organization owned by Donald Trump.

And Trump said she can compete.

If its NOT a public event then why is it televised and attended at its location by members of the public?

This seems to me to have all the hallmarks of a public event

reply to post by ~Vixen~

I am a doctor. Maybe I don't have the right o wear the title, however, because other people certainly know better than I.

Well I feel like a doctor, so I should be able to carry the title and be entitled to all the perks there of ....

I demand to be employed in a profession of my choosing as someone with a PH.D

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
My point is that you cant sit here and tell us "well just dont watch" and "mind your business" when its a public event made for FEMALES.........this guy isnt a female no matter what he does.......

This is not a public event. This is a private organization owned by Donald Trump.

And Trump said she can compete.

If its NOT a public event then why is it televised and attended at its location by members of the public?

This seems to me to be the definition of public

edit on 7-4-2012 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)

Well, it isn't open to the general public, as there are rules for entering, nor is it paid for with public money. It is a private event OPENED to the public for viewing. I'm not sure what you aren't understanding..

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by ~Vixen~

 

I am a doctor. Maybe I don't have the right o wear the title, however, because other people certainly know better than I.

Well I feel like a doctor, so I should be able to carry the title and be entitled to all the perks there of ....

I demand to be employed in a profession of my choosing as someone with a PH.D

You are welcomed to apply to any position that someone with a Ph.D can, just as this woman is able to apply to the Miss Universe pageant. Maybe if you get enough support behind you, you can get that job! Good luck!

reply to post by Furbs


nono I completely understand

But it is an event intended for the public...........and for people to claim for us to MIND our own business , when its an event MEANT for the public at large.......is ridiculous..........

Anything else is just arguing semantics, because the truth is truth.......

Its a Miss Universe Contest, the name says it all