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Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

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posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by ~Vixen~
 





I am a doctor. Maybe I don't have the right o wear the title, however, because other people certainly know better than I.


Well I feel like a doctor, so I should be able to carry the title and be entitled to all the perks there of ....

I demand to be employed in a profession of my choosing as someone with a PH.D


You are welcomed to apply to any position that someone with a Ph.D can, just as this woman is able to apply to the Miss Universe pageant. Maybe if you get enough support behind you, you can get that job! Good luck!


Hey you just never know, I guess i could file for discrimination if not, because you know.......if you are born FEELING like something it makes it so.........doesnt matter if you actually are or not.......

Thanks for the support!




posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by Furbs
 


nono I completely understand

But it is an event intended for the public...........and for people to claim for us to MIND our own business , when its an event MEANT for the public at large.......is ridiculous..........

Anything else is just arguing semantics, because the truth is truth.......

Its a Miss Universe Contest, the name says it all


So, anything extended for public consumption must be consumed by everyone in the public? You must watch -everything- in the public sector regardless of your own personal interest in it?

I really don't understand what you are saying.



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
Hey you just never know, I guess i could file for discrimination if not, because you know.......if you are born FEELING like something it makes it so.........doesnt matter if you actually are or not.......

Thanks for the support!


You could file for discrimination, but you are unlikely to win, as you aren't being discriminated against based on any of the statutorily protected statuses. The employer could counter successfully that you were not as qualified for the position based on your inexperience and lack of education.

I am sorry, but it would probably be an open and shut case.



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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I've tried to bring facts and fairness to all in the ATS forums, but all I seem to get is ridicule. Everyone has personal opinions that are accepted, yet my own education and professional knowledge are questioned and ridiculed.

Yeah, I take it personal. If I wanted the trolling I'd be on the GLP forums.

Bye all

~V~



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 



Hey you just never know, I guess i could file for discrimination if not, because you know.......if you are born FEELING like something it makes it so.........doesnt matter if you actually are or not.......


Can I ask you a serious question? Would you just as soon not understand this?

I don't mean that as snotty as it sounds - I know this is something many people really don't want to accept

but it's only nature - meaning - it's natural. It happens - she does feel like a woman - it's just that simple

if you're not going to read the science - take a look at this article. Unfortunately right now I can't load the picture - but take a look. Girl or boy? Read her story. This happens - she was a girl all along

www.montrealgazette.com...
edit on 4/7/2012 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by ~Vixen~
 




That article says MOST MTF patients who have under gone vaginoplasty DO NOT have

a cervix - and therefor do not need a cervical pap smear. (i would go as far as to say NO

MTF transgender patient has a cervix )

Then goes on to say :- Finally even if the MTF patients do not require pap smears, they

will benefit from regular 'vaginal exams' (not pap smears) to ascertain that the CONSTRUCTED

neovagina is healthy and free from infection.


Sounds like a compromise to me...men and women should and often do regularly get

examined for sexually transmitted deceases and infections in their personal parts BUT a

'pap smear' seems to me to be geared at the 'cervix and uterus' neither of which the MTF

transgender has.



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 



Hey you just never know, I guess i could file for discrimination if not, because you know.......if you are born FEELING like something it makes it so.........doesnt matter if you actually are or not.......


Can I ask you a serious question? Would you just as soon not understand this?

I don't mean that as snotty as it sounds - I know this is something many people really don't want to accept

but it's only nature - meaning - it's natural. It happens - she does feel like a woman - it's just that simple

if you're not going to read the science - take a look at this article. Unfortunately right now I can't load the picture - but take a look. Girl or boy? Read her story. This happens - she was a girl all along

www.montrealgazette.com...
edit on 4/7/2012 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)


Nono i understand where you are coming from.........

And i completely understand where you are coming from and the situation that causes these people to think this.....

But the fact still remains..........hes not a female.......

The Tiger guy has surgically implanted whiskers, cheek bones, teeth , eyebrows etc.......he could even have an operation to walk on all 4s i suppose.....Hes claimed to feel like a tiger since he can remember, and identified with them...

But genetically hes not a tiger.....

No more than this guy is a female.........



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 


What a stupid example.

I'm guessing you're one of the people that would also compare gay marriage to beastiality.



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 



But the fact still remains..........hes not a female.......


how is that a fact?

Humans True hermaphroditism in humans differs from pseudohermaphroditism in which the person has both X and Y chromosomes (not to be confused with the normal XY chromosome of males), having both testicular and ovarian tissue, and having ambiguous-looking external genitalia. One possible pathophysiologic explanation of this rare phenomenon is a parthenogenetic division of a haploid ovum into two haploid ova. Upon fertilization of the two ova by two sperm cells (one carrying an X and the other carrying a Y chromosome), the two fertilized ova are then fused together resulting in a person having dual genitalial, gonadal and genetic sex. [edit]
en.wikipedia.org...

dead serious - how is she not a she?

if she/he had been born with both female and male parts - which way would you go with that? Go ahead - call it

in nature - a female anything doesn't need to be told how to be female - they just are - same as the males

Some things are learned - but much of our behavior comes to us naturally. If Ms. Talackova was born mostly male in one way - but mostly female another - well, if it happened to you lets say...you were born with female parts - but you felt as male as you feel now (I'm assuming)

tough spot to be in - isn't it?

tiger boy doesn't count as an example - it's apples and oranges



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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A small piece of incidental information from a 35 year old 'Beauty Pagent'



In 1974 Helen Morgan won the Miss UK competition and there by the right to enter the

Miss World contest. However she was forced to resign four days after her victory upon the

discovery that she had an 18 month old son.

Although she did not violate the competition rules (which stipulated only that entrants must

be unmarried) she was made to resign!

What more proof that she was ALL WOMAN than a baby



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 


What a stupid example.

I'm guessing you're one of the people that would also compare gay marriage to beastiality.


How is that a stupid example?

This man has felt this way since birth, so have transvestites.........hes as much a Tiger as they are a Woman?


Who said anything about Gay marriage and bestiality? My Cousin is Gay and Married, I was the best man at his wedding.......

I take offense to your ignorant rant.......apparently personal attacks are in order and you have nothing else of merit to share......



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 





if she/he had been born with both female and male parts - which way would you go with that? Go ahead - call it


Moot point, this man wasnt........dont try to obfuscate or deflect ......

as to the rest of the post

He is not a SHE because HE has XY chromosomes that make him a HE..........

Seriously we can argue in circles all day long thats fine.......

but SCIENCE and GENETICS is on my side...........




tiger boy doesn't count as an example - it's apples and oranges


How is it apples and Oranges? its the same damn thing............

hes felt that way ever since he was born, just as transvestites have......

hes no more a LION then she is a MAN due to PURE GENETICS......

It doesnt count because YOU want to decide whats acceptable or not, just like everyone else accused ME of doing....

It doesnt count to YOU because you see that as either crazy or ridiculous , i assume.......

yet somehow this is more acceptable......

See how this works?

You dont get to decide whats acceptable and what isnt, just like I dont.....

You dont get to say who feels what, just like I dont......

But what i DO get to say is that genetics tells me that HE is not a she , and that MAN is not a Lion...

Seriously, there shouldnt even be a debate on that point.......


edit on 7-4-2012 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-4-2012 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by ~Vixen~
 


You make an excellent point. Some of these folks seem to think they're the Holy See of the world and need give out their approval, as if the cosmos revolved around them or cared.



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
but SCIENCE and GENETICS is on my side...........


Luckily for everyone involved.. this isn't a matter of genetics.. it is a matter of society.

Gender is a social construct.



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 04:45 PM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 



Moot point, this man wasnt........dont try to obfuscate or deflect ......


I did neither - I was making a point that you want to ignore so that you can focus on: he was born a man - and I'm right about that :-)

You completely miss the point of an entire discussion about what's normal and what's not as far as gender goes - did you read any of the links I posted?

I'm guessing you didn't - or you did, but didn't want to have to consider what you found there. Or, you decided that just saying over and over again that she was born a man does away with all the annoying details

Thanks for repeatedly stating the obvious - lest we all forget

Here's a very simple way to look at it: she was born male - but not in her head. Where does our sense of self exist?

Now - if you want to say that you don't care...tough luck and all that, them's the rules - she was born male and she just needs to deal with it... Well, it wouldn't exactly be the most humanistic or compassionate argument you could make - but it would at least be honest

What you want (if I were to try and guess) is to not be forced to understand or accept this on anybody's terms but your own. So, what is in fact a reality for a great many people is less important to you than not having to do something you don't want to do

Consequences, compassion and human rights be damned

...'cause - she was born a man - duh!

:-)

How is it apples and Oranges? its the same damn thing......


How is making yourself look like a tiger the same thing as wanting to be the woman you feel you are? Do you actually believe that that man believes he's a real tiger?


You dont get to decide whats acceptable and what isnt, just like I dont.....

You dont get to say who feels what, just like I dont......


And - there it is :-)

Society will decide in the end. And it's this kind of discussion that will lead the way



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 04:52 PM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 


The fact that you just used the word transvestite.

That's quite significant to your knowledge on this issue.

He's a tiger, I guess? No problems with that from me..

Still a stupid example.



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 04:54 PM
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Nothing tricky about this at all. An organization gets to set the rules for its contents themselves unless we live in a totalitarian state now. If the organization says "Our game rules are we allow transgenders" thats fine. If they say "Our game rules are we dont allow transgenders" thats fine. No outsider gets to determine a companies game rules in a free country.



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 


You're making a speticale of yourself, my poor martyr, and yet, somehow, i've managed to move on with my life and the cosmos havn't collapsed in upon themselves.

Suppose not everyone embraces your interpretations of reality and science? What then? Suppose I am a Tree in spirit, what's that to you? Has that done you damage? You know, I go out everyday displaying my aweful tree self, I dare say I may have shed some leaves out in public, it's been windy.

I've learned how tiny my little brain is in comparison to what truly IS. I've learned that some things look like one thing but are another and how reality can be more fluid than we might understand it. For example, there are stones plaine on the outside yet quite luminous on the inside. When we observe the movement of the sun, we thought surely it rises and falls and makes its paths yet when we looked farther we saw that this was not necessarily so. It was once thought by some by observation that if a man sailed too far he'd fall off the edge of the sea! We know apearences are decieving and though a cube is a cube, it is also more and less nor is it bound to being a cube alone because what Is does not necessarily operate inaccord to rigid rules else all things would grind to a holt, if you have observed nature, you would see this to be so. People say there are four seasons based on the movements of heaven and earth yet we know all things ever flow and change yet when this happens people are yet amazed and say such and such should be this or that it is out of its season, is it really or is it merely the movement of things and that no thing stands still, not even stones yet by all acounts we know they cannot move themselves and yet they move because they are moved. The same Science we qoute and say that a man is a man and a woman is a woman based on this or that also says not so quick, and calls us to observe that not all things are in accord to the manner we think they should. That's not to say that a man isn't a man or a woman isn't a woman and so on and so forth, only that the formula is not necesarily so black and white. Should we not take this into consideration?
edit on 7-4-2012 by Arles Morningside because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by eletheia
reply to post by ~Vixen~
 

That article says MOST MTF patients who have under gone vaginoplasty DO NOT have

a cervix - and therefor do not need a cervical pap smear. (i would go as far as to say NO

MTF transgender patient has a cervix )



You would, again, be wrong in that assumption. Don't take my word for it though, go find some "professional" advice from someone online.

Even women with XY chromosomal karotypes have given birth. With billions of humans inhabiting this planet there are millions of exceptions to every "natural rule." Ignorance such as yours is the reason there is so much confusion, and ultimately hate, towards transsexuals. You pick and choose what you want to hear, question and deny professionals on the issues, and then continue to propagate your theories as truth.

Whether you choose to believe me or not, I've dealt with many people suffering with these issues. It's emotionally charged for some of us, and it's infuriating when people spread half truths and misinformation.

My best friend, nearing menopause, doesn't have children. Does that make her a man because of her inability to reproduce? No, absolutely not. Chromosomal patterns and how we dress are irrelevant. It's the person that matters.

I don't think that asking people to respect others right to self determination is too much to ask. Why is is such a huge issue?



posted on Apr, 7 2012 @ 05:48 PM
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I agree with you, vixen...they are people, and those who refer to them as "it", that is so so wrong. there were some good posts about how the trans brains were different. there is a spectrum, gay straight, bi, asexual, trans, mixed gender.

I am appalled with people who compare it to beastiality and pedophilia....come on..... that is just so wrong.

they want to be themselves and treated like people. I can't imagine how hard that must be,your brain says one thing and your physical self is the opposite. Your whole sense of self, is the opposite of what you are.

They are people........



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