Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

Originally posted by coop039
One has a penis and is male, the other has a vagina and is female. The female chooses to dress and act male.

You are so close to getting it, and I applaud your efforts!

One is a male-gendered person with a penis that has decided to live his life as a social-homosexual yet biologically heterosexual male. One is a male-gendered person with a vagina that has decided to live his life as a social-homosexual yet biologically-heterosexual female.

We are coming to the conclusion that gender is a social construct. It does not need a biological basis to be determined. As we are judging the women in these pageants on their ability to navigate our social engineering of what we believe the female gender should aspire to, the idea that one of the examples of social engineered female perfection just happens to be be someone not born into that gender role is astonishing.

Originally posted by coop039

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by Debunkology

Originally posted by Furbs
One of them has a penis and is a male, one has a vagina and is a male.

No. One has a penis and is male. The other has a penis inverted and balls sack folded back to look like a vagina and is male.

The medical proffesion call it a 'neo vagina' because it's simply not a real vagina. It is not self lubricating, they must be dilated regularly and can have a aroma of feces because in reality it is a wound. The person can still ejaculate but of course but this will be of alkali (male) rather than acidic (female) qualities.

You seem to be under the impression that a surgery took place. I do not seem to remember making such a claim. Also, your information is horribly inaccurate as anyone with an uncircumcised penis can tell you.. there is plenty of lubrication within a foreskin, and it never has the aroma of feces. Also, just a quick FYI.. if you ever have a wound that smells like feces.. you need to go to the doctor immediately.

edit on 4-4-2012 by Furbs because: (no reason given)

An uncircumcised penis is not split open and turned inside out to creat a hole made for penetration. (if Im incorrect about the procedure I appologize)

No, you are basically correct about the procedure, however the biology of the penis sheath remains constant regardless of the length (or in the case of surgical intervention the depth) of the penis. When thinking of the reconstruction, imagine the result more like the skin under the foreskin of an uncircumcised penis, which retains a reddish color and is slick to the touch.

The surgery itself is amazing. I would post an incredible video detailing the procedure but.. I don't think it would be embraced by the community. There are a few good ones on the internet.

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by coop039
One has a penis and is male, the other has a vagina and is female. The female chooses to dress and act male.

You are so close to getting it, and I applaud your efforts!

One is a male-gendered person with a penis that has decided to live his life as a social-homosexual yet biologically heterosexual male. One is a male-gendered person with a vagina that has decided to live his life as a social-homosexual yet biologically-heterosexual female.

I think I was more than close.

I would like to say to my fellow Trans ATSers on here to keep strong and to not lose hope no matter how heavy your heart gets, and no matter what, you are the fine ladies and gents that you are.

Originally posted by Partygirl

Above: Mr./Ms.Talackova (on the right)

The Miss Universe Organization announced Monday that it might reverse an earlier decision and allow a transgender woman to enter the Miss Universe Canada pageant.

Jenna Talackova, 23, was born male, leading organizers to disqualify her last month as a finalist in the 61st Miss Universe Canada pageant in May.

More at source

There is an argument now over whether transgendered people (i.e., those who have undergone sex-change operations) should be allowed in beauty contests. Originally Mr./Ms. Talackova, above, was disqualified, although after loud complaints, they are considering whether or not to let him/her into the contest.

This is a difficult matter that touches on many social issues: gender, sexuality, “political correctness,” and identity in general in a world where notions of identity seems to be becoming more fluid.

Personally, I do not believe Talackova can be considered a true woman in the sense that I am. As a Christian, I believe God made men and women differently for a reason. I understand this may not be a popular view, but it is mine, and I have a right to it. From a biological point of view, there is a difference between Talackova and me in that every cell in my body has XX chromosomes, while every cell in his/her body has XY chromosomes. This is true – in every single cell – no matter what he/she hacks off or plasters on to the body that God gave her. Nor will this person ever be able to conceive and bear a child (well, not with current technology, anyway). So I, personally, reject the notion that Talackova is a true woman. Sorry. If a man wants to dress and act as one, undergo surgery to look more like one, sleep with men, and be called “Ms.”, that’s fine with me – none of that bothers me. But deep down, I believe there is a difference.

I am also upset at the way “identity issues” seem to be rammed down our throat constantly. We are always having to walk on eggshells these days in case we offend somebody. Seems like lots of people use their differences from the norm to extract special recognition, or special privileges, or some kind of sympathy, or status as an oppressed minority. I believe that as we strive to grapple with the challenges ahead, we humans we should be focused on what unites us, what is the same about us, and what we share. Feelings of compassion and sympathy flow from a sense of sharing something with other humans, not setting them apart from us. I can’t help but think the constant, steady need to assert people’s differences creates more problems than it solves.

I wanted to get a man’s view on this so I asked my brother what he thought. My brother is a pretty conservative guy: a fundamentalist Christian like me, and he's also an Iraq war combat vet. But he was less delicate about the issue than me. After unloading a string of curse-words in my ear over the phone, he said, “They won’t rest until heterosexuality and attraction to women rather than men is a hate crime.” I don’t know if I’d go that far, but I can’t help but feel there is something more at work here, an agenda constantly being pushed by the mainstream media to denigrate heterosexuality and promote non-traditional ideas of gender and sexuality. I resent being made the target of a campaign to warp my sexuality and assault my Christian values, and I think its accelerating on all fronts. And is insulting, the idea that “your values are wrong and you will be forced to accept the new values.” Everything from shaming tactics to the constant media drumbeat for things like this. It makes me feel like an object being “talked at” rather than a person involved in a dialogue as an equal, who would be “talked with.”

Those are my thoughts. What are yours?

edit on 4/3/2012 by Partygirl because: (no reason given)

Who is this God character you speak of?

Everybody has free will, this whole universe is actually one of prime creators 'free-will' zones

Obviously this can have both benevolent and malevolent outcomes.

People makes choices...

Its a minor really... you know.. in the whole grand scheme of things..

at the end of the day she is a person, with feelings.. and a heart.. full of loveove

reply to post by coop039


Yes, you are so close, which I believe to be more than close.

The last hurdle I think you have left is seeing a definitive separation between social gender and biological sex. Once you truly understand that everything we think is "manly" is merely an illusion created by culture, you will be unable to unsee it. Once you understand that what it is to be "manly" changes depending on where you are in the world, you will be able to better appreciate the differences in other cultures. Understanding gender separation truly is a building block and a underpinning to anthropology that allows us to better know self through understanding others.

The though that a transgender who was (physically) a guy just 5 years ago might become the "most beautiful woman in the universe"...makes me cringe.

I have no doubts there might indeed be people born "in the wrong body" and that someone can mentally and genuinely feel and consider themselves "as the other gender"..however i have a problem with people saying "gender is a choice" since it obviously is not.

If gender would be simply a "choice"..who knows, tomorrow i might wake up and feel "really, really female" and come to the conclusion that i am really a girl, get some surgery and some hormones....and i hope you would all vote me for the "most beautiful woman in the world"? (Ignore the fact that right now i look really, really male, including bald hair and my wife saying i am the straightest man she knows...i mean, i am sure there is a pill for that...)

What is next? Can we choose to have certain skin colors and ethnicities as well? "You know, at heart i am really black" etc..etc...

Originally posted by flexy123
The though that a transgender who was (physically) a guy just 5 years ago might become the "most beautiful woman in the universe"...makes me cringe.

Why, exactly? Do you feel it is an affront to your (apparent) heterosexual orientation? I mean -zero- disrespect. I just like to ask thought provoking questions to people that makes such statements.

I have no doubts there might indeed be people born "in the wrong body" and that someone can mentally and genuinely feel and consider themselves "as the other gender"..however i have a problem with people saying "gender is a choice" since it obviously is not.

Think of it like this.

I am a person. It is socially acceptable for me to enjoy wearing make up and to hold hands with members of the same sex and will kiss them, not to show my sexual attraction to them, but to show admiration and friendship. What gender am I?

This depends on what part of the world you are in. Sometimes this is true for females, sometimes for males. This is because gender is a made up separation based on sexual differences. People with penises are treated a certain way from infancy and generally take the gender role of "Male". People with vaginas are treated a certain way and generally take the gender role of "Female". However, sometimes a person would rather be identified as the gender role contrary to that which they are assigned.

This makes them transgendered. However, even transgendered people are socially engineered to believe that "males" are a certain way and "females" are a different way.

If gender would be simply a "choice"..who knows, tomorrow i might wake up and feel "really, really female" and come to the conclusion that i am really a girl, get some surgery and some hormones....and i hope you would all vote me for the "most beautiful woman in the world"? (Ignore the fact that right now i look really, really male, including bald hair and my wife saying i am the straightest man she knows...i mean, i am sure there is a pill for that…)

You are mixing up a lot of different ideas right now.

1. Transgendered people are not necessarily transsexual.
2. If you decided tomorrow to life your life as a woman, you could do so without surgery.
3. If you decided to get surgery, you could still not compete in the Miss Universe pageant. (You are married)
4. Transgendered people are not necessarily homosexual.

What is next? Can we choose to have certain skin colors and ethnicities as well? "You know, at heart i am really black" etc..etc...

edit on 4-4-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

There are many people that feel certain pulls to various ethnicities and cultures. This is why you will find Caucasian Buddhists in Iowa. as for skin color.. you are aware that augmenting skin color is a multibillion dollar business, right?

reply to post by getreadyalready


Admittedly I don't find her greatly attractive. She's way too thin. Granted, I do find much beauty in most of those beauty pageant contestants, as they seem to all have that plastic look going on.

The point is, I see only a woman. Not a man.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000



I find that a fair answer. But we both know that in todays world? This is un-avoidable. You can't avoid seeing other religions, gays, lesbians, or transgendered people.

I would like to offer you a perspective that is perhaps easier to understand why the contestant here wouldn't be interested in a TG pageant. She's a female. I know you don't see it that way. But being transgendered is supposed to be a temporary status. Which pretty much ends when one has settled into their life which might involve various surgeries and hormone treatments with other therapies involved. Why would she take it upon herself to violate how she naturally lives and thinks? I'd agree that it was a fair amount of risk in joining the pageant, and maybe she was trying to prove a point.

Also TG pageants aren't really taken seriously from what I've seen, and treated more like some amusing spectacle than a serious contest.

Originally posted by Partygirl
From a biological point of view, there is a difference between Talackova and me in that every cell in my body has XX chromosomes, while every cell in his/her body has XY chromosomes. This is true – in every single cell – no matter what he/she hacks off or plasters on to the body that God gave her. Nor will this person ever be able to conceive and bear a child (well, not with current technology, anyway). So I, personally, reject the notion that Talackova is a true woman.

what if gene therapy using phages develops enough till over a period of 7 years the body can replace every single cell with cells that hold XX chromosomes - replacing XY chromosomes.. making a complete change occur.
Frogs can do this without gene therapy.

That's the 'clincher' in one of the Jurassic Park movies... the Raptors are all female so as to limit reproduction but since they were (using frog DNA), they had the same ability of some frogs .. where if there's 100% or close to that %, of all females.. their pheromone receptors trigger an inborn switch that converts the females into males..
I don't know if they just develop the "equipment" .. or if their 2nd X chromosome morphs into a Y chromosome (someone would have to research and post that)... but the "concept" is there...

so if we could artificially do this... and they ACTUALLY changed from XY into XX .. then would they still be a "true woman" ... OR would you still say no because God didn't make them that way... (God however DID bless them with the unrelenting urge to change themselves.. and brains to figure out how) .. just like "God" made frogs that switch sexes.....??

what if some disease wipes out all human males off the planet.. or females... and we need to reproduce...
did god make man and woman for a reason.. then did god make male and female frogs for a reason.. but make an accident when he made them able to switch sexes?

your thoughts OP? ...

I'm not feeling this. It's just as over the top as a woman trying to join an all male pro football team...
ridiculous!

Originally posted by Teeky
I'm not feeling this. It's just as over the top as a woman trying to join an all male pro football team...
ridiculous!

I want my sports teams to play at the highest level possible. If the best person to be on that team is a female, I want her there.

reply to post by Miraj


Well, I have to say we're up to the second exchange of msgs without a single word in anger....on a subject that makes that rare. This is enjoyable... Kinda like the ATS I joined before last fall... Anyway.. It's so nice I had to mention it.

Anyway, I take your point and it's fair enough on the TG Pageant idea. I'd tend to agree with you that it would be seen as a "freak show" of men in drag...by most people. It isn't fair or right..but that is the perception I'd expect.

Given that, I have a question on this and I went back to the OP but couldn't find an answer. How was she found out? I'm thinking it's important to know at this point whether she entered the Pageant 100% as a Female in not only official papers..but what she SAID to everyone either officially or not? This was listed as "Natural Born" female as a flat requirement. No Asterix or qualifications. Natural born Female.

So....Was it a matter of get in, say enough to get busted back out...then come back with a legal team that would scare a Judge?

Personally..I went back before writing this and looked considerably more at the pictures of her...and I will rightfully call her a HER now. Surgically and physically..I can't see anything but Female. She's one of the few..I honestly would never know to look at her or ..likely even more than that. Quite an accomplishment. Now..... How is it She entered a pageant with rules that clearly...very very clearly...excluded her. Then...when somehow she's discovered (again..how that happened means everything in my mind) she comes back IMMEDIATELY with a "legal team" led by Gloria Allred. Does she actually do any legal work anymore or is she just a media pet?

Anyway... All things being equal, the specifics here stink a bit without more information than the OP story is supplying,. The more I looked at this a bit ago..the more it smells like an activist set-up to sue, actually.

reply to post by Furbs


Ok good point, but this transgendered contestant is not the best of the best as far as beauty goes.
So she doesn't belong

If one wear a dog fur and start barking everyone's going to say he's insane, if only his political beliefs goes against the popular beliefs that are considered "normal" he'll be classified mentally unfit... Yet a male can get physically changed into what "appears" to be something he can't ever be yet we're supposed to view it as an original woman?

I'm sorry but there's mental, hormonal and chemical difference between a woman and a man and no matter how much you spend on surgery you'll never be a real woman... Mental instability is a dead end in this case you can't live a fantasy forever without starting to believe into it and when reality and fantasy starts to blend issues come out...

I can paint my car and put a body kit and make it look like a Ferrari and it'll be fun but I won't start to drive it around trying to shove people's throat its an original one and I won't get pissed when people is pointing out its not a real Ferrari and I CERTAINLY won't get into exotic car shows with a kit car cuz in the end its ALWAYS GOING TO BE A FAKE...

Damn it men can we at least have beauty pageants ! Aren't you happy with running the rest of the world

Originally posted by Teeky
reply to post by Furbs

 

Ok good point, but this transgendered contestant is not the best of the best as far as beauty goes.
So she doesn't belong

I think that is the entire point of the contest, is it not? I mean, one doesn't simply walk into a Miss Universe pageant. You must first qualify in smaller competitions. She has already beaten other women to attain the chance to compete for her crown. To deny her the right simply because she doesn't belong would be like keeping the best athlete out of a football game because she was female.

Originally posted by _R4t_
If one wear a dog fur and start barking everyone's going to say he's insane, if only his political beliefs goes against the popular beliefs that are considered "normal" he'll be classified mentally unfit... Yet a male can get physically changed into what "appears" to be something he can't ever be yet we're supposed to view it as an original woman?

I'm sorry but there's mental, hormonal and chemical difference between a woman and a man and no matter how much you spend on surgery you'll never be a real woman... Mental instability is a dead end in this case you can't live a fantasy forever without starting to believe into it and when reality and fantasy starts to blend issues come out...

I can paint my car and put a body kit and make it look like a Ferrari and it'll be fun but I won't start to drive it around trying to shove people's throat its an original one and I won't get pissed when people is pointing out its not a real Ferrari and I CERTAINLY won't get into exotic car shows with a kit car cuz in the end its ALWAYS GOING TO BE A FAKE...

edit on 4-4-2012 by _R4t_ because: (no reason given)

You are a person that has never been to a Sci-Fi/Fantasy convention.

reply to post by _R4t_


Suppose I reject the real and the fake car and choose my own unique car. The fake and real car bore me so you know...very blah, no bold snazzy innovativeness. My car cannot lack a certain groovy-ness.
I wouldn't shove that car down your throat though, that wouldn't be fair. It would be more fair to try to run you down with it, atleast then you have a chance to run. Ahaaahaaa.