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Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

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posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by ~Vixen~
 


You are sorely misguided. D not confuse the reality of genetics with the maleability of choices. Marriage is a choice, and has NOTHING to do with genetics. As much as you'd like to think I'm some sort of "ist" or "phobe" I actually support people's rights to make whichever decisions they choose and have consensual relationships with whoever they wish. I actually have no problem with gay marriage. Marriage is based on love, devotion, and willingness----and should not be impacted by gender or genetics. Gender, however, is not up for debate and is not a choice. And I draw the line when people try to convince me to accept a reality that simply isn't so. Alchemists can NOT turn lead into gold, and surgeons and makeup artists can NOT turn men into women. I'm not saying that a man can't believe in his heart that he is a woman, or that a man can't live his live completely 100% as a woman (or vice-versa). But living AS a woman or being accepted AS a woman, do not equal actually transforming into a woman. I will never accept this ridiculous notion that someone actually CHANGES gender because they strongly believe it, anymore than I believe all the christmas movies where Santa Claus becomes real if you strongly believe in him. Reality is reality. Like I said earlier... I could believe with all my soul that I was born to be an ape. I could even surgically implant hair all over my body, move into a tree, convince all of my relatives and friends to relate to me as an ape, be accepted into a colony of apes, have meaningful sexual relations with apes, and live my life 100% completely AS an ape. Despite all of this, I have not actually BECOME an ape anymore than a transgender female has become an actual female. The chromosomes still say male, and I agree with the chromosomes. There is no Gray area. Stop confusing perception with reality.




posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Furbs
 


Depends on who the vagina belongs too, and what it is constructed of!


It is not nearly as complicated as you make it.


To my knowledge, and this is second hand, the vagina was there from birth.


Since you used the term "intercourse" and one is apparently a female since birth, then it sounds like Hetero sex to me. I suspect you are somehow baiting us, so I await the "gotcha."



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by MiloNickels
Gender, however, is not up for debate and is not a choice.


Hello, Milo.

I would like to pose a question to you.

What is gender?

Please do not blow me off as a troll or someone trying to mess with you. I am genuinely interested in what leads you to the assertion that gender is not a choice.

Thanks



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Furbs
 


Depends on who the vagina belongs too, and what it is constructed of!


It is not nearly as complicated as you make it.


To my knowledge, and this is second hand, the vagina was there from birth.


Since you used the term "intercourse" and one is apparently a female since birth, then it sounds like Hetero sex to me. I suspect you are somehow baiting us, so I await the "gotcha."


Nope, no baiting.

I have no freaking clue how to define their relationship. One of them has a penis and is a male, one has a vagina and is a male. My wife and I have discussed it a few times in the past and it has simply eluded definition. It has basically been boiled down to..

They love each other.

I was just looking for other opinions.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 02:46 PM
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reply to post by Furbs
 


Gender is defined by the two halves of a potentially procreating couple.

Of course, health problems and defects sometimes limit the procreation capacity of any particular individual, but there are two genders, and it requires both to fertilize an egg and make a baby. Gender reassignment does not make someone able to ovulate and reproduce, and neither does a prosthetic penis fashioned out of spare parts make someone able to fertilize an egg.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 02:51 PM
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Alchemists can NOT turn lead into gold, and surgeons and makeup artists can NOT turn men into women


Absolutely true. Whats even worse is that now parents are allowing children as young as 9 to start this process, allowing doctors to prescribe them hormones or so called "gender bending" drugs.
Sad/Pathetic



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Furbs
 


Gender is defined by the two halves of a potentially procreating couple.

Of course, health problems and defects sometimes limit the procreation capacity of any particular individual, but there are two genders, and it requires both to fertilize an egg and make a baby. Gender reassignment does not make someone able to ovulate and reproduce, and neither does a prosthetic penis fashioned out of spare parts make someone able to fertilize an egg.



I agree with your definition, however, you are defining the wrong word. You are defining gametes, not gender. Gender is social, not biological. Gender reassignment surgery is a misnomer, and is falling out of favor.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by MiloNickels
reply to post by ~Vixen~
 


You are sorely misguided. D not confuse the reality of genetics with the maleability of choices.


May I ask where you get your medical knowledge from? Is it professional firsthand experience, or simply internet based research?


Originally posted by MiloNickels

Gender, however, is not up for debate and is not a choice. And I draw the line when people try to convince me to accept a reality that simply isn't so. Alchemists can NOT turn lead into gold, and surgeons and makeup artists can NOT turn men into women. I'm not saying that a man can't believe in his heart that he is a woman, or that a man can't live his live completely 100% as a woman (or vice-versa). But living AS a woman or being accepted AS a woman, do not equal actually transforming into a woman. I will never accept this ridiculous notion that someone actually CHANGES gender because they strongly believe it, anymore than I believe all the christmas movies where Santa Claus becomes real if you strongly believe in him. Reality is reality. Like I said earlier... I could believe with all my soul that I was born to be an ape. I could even surgically implant hair all over my body, move into a tree, convince all of my relatives and friends to relate to me as an ape, be accepted into a colony of apes, have meaningful sexual relations with apes, and live my life 100% completely AS an ape. Despite all of this, I have not actually BECOME an ape anymore than a transgender female has become an actual female. The chromosomes still say male, and I agree with the chromosomes. There is no Gray area. Stop confusing perception with reality.


- Do you believe that EVERY woman in the world has only XX chromosomes? They don't.
- Do you believe that EVERY man in the world has only XY chromosomes? It's not true.

- Is it possible for a child to be born with XY chromosomes and a vagina? YES
- Is it possible for a child to be born with XX chromosomes and have a penis? YES.

The question at hand is what do we do when someone doesn't fit into either of the above descriptions.

Chromosomes are not a completely accurate method of determining a persons sex. Does having something outside of the two most prevalent karotypes make a person any less male/female? How should that be determined? Determined by whom?
edit on 4/4/2012 by ~Vixen~ because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 03:20 PM
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Why so much hatred toward a person that literally isn't doing any harm, and if she is doing harm, it is only to herself? Unless you are wanting to sleep with her, then what difference does it make to know she was born male?

If you are Christian, that is great, but what right do you have to force your beliefs and values on everyone else in a free society? Live and let live, stop all the hatred towards things you don't agree with or understand



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by Furbs
 


No... that is a fair question, and the whole crux of my frustration. People are confusing the scientific concept of "gender" with the social construct of "gender roles". Gender is a scientific and biological classification as defined by chromosomes and genetics. A biological male has an X chromosome and a Y chromosome. And a biological female has two X chromosomes. Furthermore the biological male creates sperm to be used in the reproductive process and the female produces ova (or eggs).

This is pretty much where the scientific definition of gender ends and where I rest my argument. Many people (particular in debates like these) want to use the term "gender" interchangeably with the term "gender roles"--and this is common practice in society at large, but there is a difference. Gender roles arise from a WIDE array of genetic AND social factors. Of course, genetics do play a large role in gender roles but this influence lies along a wide ranging spectrum. For example, males typically have more testosterone than women, and this testosterone has an impact on a wide range of behaviors and preferences. Some men will have lower levels of testosterone, and maybe even high levels of estrogen, which will also affect their gender roles. The level of testosterone may effect one's gender role, but it has no impact whatsoever on their actual gender. The gender is a black or white proposition, but the gender roles are full of gray areas. Some of it is determined by genetic factors and some of it is determined by social factors. Therefore, when someone says that men can turn into women they are referring to a change in role only. The actual gender and underlying chromosomal factors that determine gender do not change.

I'm not condemning or ridiculing anyone for alternative lifestyles. If there are men out there who believe they were meant to be women, I don't begrudge them for living their lives as they see fit or in a way that brings them peace and tranquility. I'm a libertarian/anarchist, I want EVERYONE to live their own lives as they see fit. The flip side of that coin, however, is that I also wish live and believe as I see fit. I'm not EVIL because I won't accept that people can magically change genders. In fact, there are solid scientific arguments to support my position.

It's no more discriminatory to keep transgender females out of female events than it would be to keep me out of the BET awards (no matter how dark of a tan I can get). I would also be against real women being allowed to compete in a pageant intended for transgender women, or Cartman being allowed to compete in the special olympics...

I view things scientifically, and have no desire to ignore scientific facts. I know it's cliche, but I like the whole crime scene DNA argument. If a transgender female rapes me and leaves behind a blood stain. In the absence of gender roles, clothing preferences, body hair, sex organs, body shape, etc... who will the evidence technicians be looking for based on the DNA??? There is only one answer and the gender role doesn't matter at all.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 03:38 PM
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reply to post by mwhite06
 


I havent seen any hatred in this thread, some disgust maybe but no hatred. Just because I dont agree with what they are doing doesnt imply hate or a "phobia" it just means I believe it is sick and twisted and thats my right.

By the way, the push to accept their lifestyle has grown ten fold in the past few years, labeling people that dont agree with it and trying to make calling someone a fag a hate crime, give me a break.

If heteros held the same types of carnivals and parades that the trannys and gays hold in San Francisco or the Folsome street parade, they would be arrested and charged with some type of sexual related crime and forced to register as a sex offender.

example Folsome Street Fair
edit on 4-4-2012 by Juggernog because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by mwhite06
 

Why does adhering to reality have to be called hatred?



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by Juggernog
 


If trannys and gays from SF held the festival in any other city, from the things I heard, they'd get arrested as well probably. SF is not the best example to use.


edit on 4-4-2012 by Turq1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by Turq1
reply to post by Juggernog
 


SF is not the best example to use.


Well, you got me there, lol.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 03:55 PM
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Originally posted by Furbs
One of them has a penis and is a male, one has a vagina and is a male.


Apart from the women in the Miss Universe contest. Male with a neo vagina.

The medical proffesion call it a 'neo vagina' because it's simply not a real vagina. It is not self lubricating, they must be dilated regularly and can have a aroma of feces because in reality it is a wound. The person can still ejaculate but of course but this will be of alkali (male) rather than acidic (female) qualities.







edit on 4-4-2012 by Debunkology because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by Debunkology

Originally posted by Furbs
One of them has a penis and is a male, one has a vagina and is a male.


No. One has a penis and is male. The other has a penis inverted and balls sack folded back to look like a vagina and is male.

The medical proffesion call it a 'neo vagina' because it's simply not a real vagina. It is not self lubricating, they must be dilated regularly and can have a aroma of feces because in reality it is a wound. The person can still ejaculate but of course but this will be of alkali (male) rather than acidic (female) qualities.


You seem to be under the impression that a surgery took place. I do not seem to remember making such a claim. Also, your information is horribly inaccurate as anyone with an uncircumcised penis can tell you.. there is plenty of lubrication within a foreskin, and it never has the aroma of feces. Also, just a quick FYI.. if you ever have a wound that smells like feces.. you need to go to the doctor immediately.

edit on 4-4-2012 by Furbs because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by Juggernog

If heteros held the same types of carnivals and parades that the trannys and gays hold in San Francisco or the Folsome street parade, they would be arrested and charged with some type of sexual related crime and forced to register as a sex offender.


If people afforded the gays equal marriage rights and curbed the discrimination, I'd guess that those parades and festivals would begin to disappear. You don't need a rally for gay marriage once you're allowed that right.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by Juggernog
reply to post by mwhite06
 


If heteros held the same types of carnivals and parades that the trannys and gays hold in San Francisco or the Folsome street parade, they would be arrested and charged with some type of sexual related crime and forced to register as a sex offender.

example Folsome Street Fair
edit on 4-4-2012 by Juggernog because: (no reason given)


Really?

Because I don't see that happening at Mardi Gras.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by Debunkology

Originally posted by Furbs
One of them has a penis and is a male, one has a vagina and is a male.


No. One has a penis and is male. The other has a penis inverted and balls sack folded back to look like a vagina and is male.

The medical proffesion call it a 'neo vagina' because it's simply not a real vagina. It is not self lubricating, they must be dilated regularly and can have a aroma of feces because in reality it is a wound. The person can still ejaculate but of course but this will be of alkali (male) rather than acidic (female) qualities.


You seem to be under the impression that a surgery took place. I do not seem to remember making such a claim. Also, your information is horribly inaccurate as anyone with an uncircumcised penis can tell you.. there is plenty of lubrication within a foreskin, and it never has the aroma of feces. Also, just a quick FYI.. if you ever have a wound that smells like feces.. you need to go to the doctor immediately.

edit on 4-4-2012 by Furbs because: (no reason given)


One has a penis and is male, the other has a vagina and is female. The female chooses to dress and act male.



posted on Apr, 4 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by Debunkology

Originally posted by Furbs
One of them has a penis and is a male, one has a vagina and is a male.


No. One has a penis and is male. The other has a penis inverted and balls sack folded back to look like a vagina and is male.

The medical proffesion call it a 'neo vagina' because it's simply not a real vagina. It is not self lubricating, they must be dilated regularly and can have a aroma of feces because in reality it is a wound. The person can still ejaculate but of course but this will be of alkali (male) rather than acidic (female) qualities.


You seem to be under the impression that a surgery took place. I do not seem to remember making such a claim. Also, your information is horribly inaccurate as anyone with an uncircumcised penis can tell you.. there is plenty of lubrication within a foreskin, and it never has the aroma of feces. Also, just a quick FYI.. if you ever have a wound that smells like feces.. you need to go to the doctor immediately.

edit on 4-4-2012 by Furbs because: (no reason given)


An uncircumcised penis is not split open and turned inside out to creat a hole made for penetration. (if Im incorrect about the procedure I appologize)



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