Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

Originally posted by coop039

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by coop039

Honestly, on a strictly natural/genetic level, I cant believe people are arguing the XX vs. XY thing. Your born male or female(as yes I know there are exceptions).

Bolding mine to indicate your own contradiction.

This is a good start for your own research.

en.wikipedia.org...

Come at it with the open mind of a biologist, and not the biased mind of a socially engineered person with artificially constructed gender.

Linking me to a wiki page about an issue that, and I quote from the wiki page, " was initially adopted by intersex activists who criticize traditional medical approaches" , does not help your argument.

Also, my gender is not "artificially constructed", nor are my penis and testicles.

edit on 4-4-2012 by coop039 because: (no reason given)

Gender is artificially constructed. If it weren't "What it means to be a man" would be the same in every culture. It is not. Gender is a social construct, not a biological constant.

I can see that your reading comprehension skills are not as high as they should be for dealing with scientific material, so I will help you with the quote you posted. I apologize for given you a source that was beyond your grasp of understanding, the mistake was mine.

Intersexuality as a term was adopted by medicine during the 20th century, and applied to human beings whose biological sex cannot be classified as clearly male or female.[2][3][4] Intersex was initially adopted by intersex activists who criticize traditional medical approaches to sex assignment and seek to be heard in the construction of new approaches.

As you can see, the former sentence clearly differentiates the condition of intersexuality (which is an unmistakable and irrefutable biological condition) from the term interesexuality, which was used by activists.

About your penis and testicles not being a construct.. are you certain? 1% of infants are born with intersexual characteristics. 1 in 1000 babies have such striking intersexual characteristics that parents make a decision which sex they want their child to be and the doctor removes the superfluous organs, often times needing to augment the remaining ones as well.

Many parents never tell their children of the surgery.

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by coop039

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by coop039

Honestly, on a strictly natural/genetic level, I cant believe people are arguing the XX vs. XY thing. Your born male or female(as yes I know there are exceptions).

Bolding mine to indicate your own contradiction.

This is a good start for your own research.

en.wikipedia.org...

Come at it with the open mind of a biologist, and not the biased mind of a socially engineered person with artificially constructed gender.

Linking me to a wiki page about an issue that, and I quote from the wiki page, " was initially adopted by intersex activists who criticize traditional medical approaches" , does not help your argument.

Also, my gender is not "artificially constructed", nor are my penis and testicles.

edit on 4-4-2012 by coop039 because: (no reason given)

Gender is artificially constructed. If it weren't "What it means to be a man" would be the same in every culture. It is not. Gender is a social construct, not a biological constant.

I can see that your reading comprehension skills are not as high as they should be for dealing with scientific material, so I will help you with the quote you posted. I apologize for given you a source that was beyond your grasp of understanding, the mistake was mine.

Intersexuality as a term was adopted by medicine during the 20th century, and applied to human beings whose biological sex cannot be classified as clearly male or female.[2][3][4] Intersex was initially adopted by intersex activists who criticize traditional medical approaches to sex assignment and seek to be heard in the construction of new approaches.

As you can see, the former sentence clearly differentiates the condition of intersexuality (which is an unmistakable and irrefutable biological condition) from the term interesexuality, which was used by activists.

About your penis and testicles not being a construct.. are you certain? 1% of infants are born with intersexual characteristics. 1 in 1000 babies have such striking intersexual characteristics that parents make a decision which sex they want their child to be and the doctor removes the superfluous organs, often times needing to augment the remaining ones as well.

Many parents never tell their children of the surgery.

edit on 4-4-2012 by Furbs because: (no reason given)

Lol! There is nothing wrong with my reading or comprehension. You appearently missed where I said there are exceptions.
And what it means to be a man is pretty similar through out the world(note, I said similar, not identical). Or is there a group of men giving birth and breast feeding babies out there looking for some recognition?

Originally posted by coop039

But marriage IS based on sex, hence all the same sex marriage problems we have.
Honestly, on a strictly natural/genetic level, I cant believe people are arguing the XX vs. XY thing. Your born male or female(as yes I know there are exceptions).

We are classified as male or female at birth based on external physical evidence, but even that can be deceiving at times. The vast majority of the population will probably never be exposed to many of the controversies surrounding sex determination, but sometimes we need to look deeper than that which is only skin deep.

Anomalies happen, and modern society now has limited means to correct sex/gender issues. It should entail EXTENSIVE psychological assessment and counseling, but once those requirements are met, those individuals should have the right to determine their own self identity free of bias and prejudice.

I believe that transition should be a one time one way change to prevent abuse and confusion, but I believe that is all that most really want... the opportunity to find peace and build a happy life.

They can do whatever they want. They are a private organization; but they shouldn't expect people to be happy about it or to support it. How are they judging the subjective perception of beauty anyway? I honestly don't give a rats patootie what they do. I have no dog in this fight.

She's hot.

* wonders if her surgery made a good looking man-gina *

I've seen some pics on google images of one's that look pretty real.

Originally posted by coop039
Lol! There is nothing wrong with my reading or comprehension. You appearently missed where I said there are exceptions.
And what it means to be a man is pretty similar through out the world(note, I said similar, not identical). Or is there a group of men giving birth and breast feeding babies out there looking for some recognition?

edit on 4-4-2012 by coop039 because: (no reason given)

Again, your reading comprehension fails you, as I clearly indicated through bolding of the passage you are citing that I did in fact read the portion you are claiming that I missed. My apologies again, I thought the bolding and explanation of my point would have been enough for you to grasp, however my point must have been too succinct to be understood.

I am going to chalk up your statement of the similarities of men from culture to culture to be basic ignorance for which you are not responsible. Some of us have more experience with other cultures to see that men take on incredibly differing roles depending on what the culture dictates. I would direct you to some books, but I do not feel that you are to a point in your own education that you would be able to understand the material. Suffices to say that wen you are ready to step into the realm of academic cultural inquiry, there will be a wealth of knowledge by many fantastic anthropologists.

I would also point out to you that you seem to be confusing sex and gender. Again, this is not your fault. You have probably never had a gender studies class, nor any type of advanced biology from which to draw information.

Originally posted by Furbs

About your penis and testicles not being a construct.. are you certain? 1% of infants are born with intersexual characteristics. 1 in 1000 babies have such striking intersexual characteristics that parents make a decision which sex they want their child to be and the doctor removes the superfluous organs, often times needing to augment the remaining ones as well.

Many parents never tell their children of the surgery

Respectfully, the 1/1000 figure is, in my opinion, abnormally high. The vast majority of these cases are dealt with based purely on overwhelming visible physical characteristics, and thankfully do not require surgical medical intervention. Because the possibility of error and/or complications exists, this is the preferred method of initial treatment.

A large part of the problem is that once an initial sex determination is made, the means to officially change that at a later date becomes near impossible. Unfortunately bias and ignorance of science run rampant and serve to make a tumultuous change like sex harder to correct.

Originally posted by WhatAreThey
She's hot.

* wonders if her surgery made a good looking man-gina *

I've seen some pics on google images of one's that look pretty real.

Why in the hell would you be googling that? And why would you admit to it?

Originally posted by ~Vixen~

Originally posted by Furbs

About your penis and testicles not being a construct.. are you certain? 1% of infants are born with intersexual characteristics. 1 in 1000 babies have such striking intersexual characteristics that parents make a decision which sex they want their child to be and the doctor removes the superfluous organs, often times needing to augment the remaining ones as well.

Many parents never tell their children of the surgery

Respectfully, the 1/1000 figure is, in my opinion, abnormally high. The vast majority of these cases are dealt with based purely on overwhelming visible physical characteristics, and thankfully do not require surgical medical intervention. Because the possibility of error and/or complications exists, this is the preferred method of initial treatment.

A large part of the problem is that once an initial sex determination is made, the means to officially change that at a later date becomes near impossible. Unfortunately bias and ignorance of science run rampant and serve to make a tumultuous change like sex harder to correct.

Luckily for us, statistical information regarding intersexual births are not as ambiguous as the sex of the infants in question. Here is the abstract of the research were I got the numbers I cited. My apologies, I should have included them in my post.

www.isna.org...

I will concur with you that ignorance is incredibly damaging when trying to reassign a previously assigned sex. Which makes simply reassigning a gender a much easier thing to accomplish.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


It's less than a percent of people who do.

And those are typically the types of people that jump on a band wagon or want attention. The type of people you probably would have found in a drag show (which is a pure entertainment spectacle, and hardly related to transpeople.)

Also, that 41% are typically pre-transition.. as they're faced with odds they don't feel good about, a life they hate and just want a way out.

I wonder what would be said if a man turned "woman" wanted to compete on the women's Olympic team?
Or didnt something similar to that already happen? Wasnt "he" disqualified after winning?

In my opinion people like that, ie Chaz Bono are nothing but oddities of nature and I get sick of the the insistence on everyone accepting them and if we dont, were labeled with some kind of phobia

reply to post by Juggernog


I dont see how this would be an issue..

Since anti-androgens are going to produce a very not so muscular physique. Probably about the same as an average woman, so they olympic athletic women would probably be at a greater advantage.

reply to post by Miraj


Well i disagree, since men hold the record in pretty much every athletic event that exists in the olympics.

Originally posted by Furbs
Luckily for us, statistical information regarding intersexual births are not as ambiguous as the sex of the infants in question. Here is the abstract of the research were I got the numbers I cited. My apologies, I should have included them in my post.

www.isna.org...

I will concur with you that ignorance is incredibly damaging when trying to reassign a previously assigned sex. Which makes simply reassigning a gender a much easier thing to accomplish.

Thank you for the citation. My assumed numbers don't have nearly as solid a base of statistics, and I was just running off my personal experiences in dealing with this (and other related) issues. This is a complex issue that has no simple solution except acceptance. If we could achieve that, this would be a much more beautiful world for all.

So they have decided to let her compete. So if she doesnt win Im sure we will see complaints that she lost because she was once a man. What then? Will her lawyer insist she be entered into the Miss Universe pagent? And what if that happens and she doesnt win that? More complaints?
Where will it end?

Originally posted by FearEater
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I strongly stand by my first post, which you've quote, also thankful of support. My second post is pure honesty, as sick as it is written. I didn't like those days and wanted out, if you know what I mean.

Has our society degraded itself so badly, that we should accept "A" sex born, turned "B" sex through plastic surgury (

reply to post by ~Vixen~


I was absolutely floored by the statistics. I never really gave them much thought until I had a few people working for me that were intersexual. After they found out that I was to be a father, one of them came to me to speak to me about his experiences, the other spoke with my then girlfriend (now wife), who was her direct supervisor. This in turn prompted our own research.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Would you find it more acceptable for a person to kill themselves than receive hormone therapy?

The line you draw might as well be with a bullet or a knife.

Originally posted by coop039
So they have decided to let her compete. So if she doesnt win Im sure we will see complaints that she lost because she was once a man. What then? Will her lawyer insist she be entered into the Miss Universe pagent? And what if that happens and she doesnt win that? More complaints?
Where will it end?

It ends at the conclusion of this "pageant of plastic."

I support her right to compete, but I won't watch this contest that promotes vanity rather than qualities that personify what being a woman really means.

I would....


2nd line