Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

reply to post by paradox


There was a special done I think by a canadian news company..

They did get some interview footage of him, and his family before he ended up committing suicide.
Still a very sad situation.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow



This poster is absolutely right. In fact, most non-western countries revere transgender individuals or at the very least support them in many ways western nations do not.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...(South_Asia)

en.wikipedia.org...

Educate yourselves.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

Because Beauty pageants are serious business? You really want to make authenticity a priority - at the Miss Universe Pageant?

:-)

Spot on !

I vote no. I will not read the thread. My answer is final.

Miss Universe is for the female gender only. This MAN may think and look like a female, but HE is NOT naturally.

Period.

eta; I'm Canadian, we (or myself, anyways) have limits, and this is pushing it...

reply to post by Partygirl


A transgendered man can chop off his penis and do all the plastic surgery he can to appear like a woman but fact is he is NOT a woman biologically and thats that!

There is a Miss Transgender World pagent - go join that.

reply to post by AnonymousFem

For someone "Rising Against The NWO" you sure seem to be towing the party line by your opinion LOL. But of course the NWO is full of hypocrites, like the churches and the politicians and on and on.... BTW, Canada has some pretty stupid rules and classifications. A woman has XY and a man XX chromosomes. Just because a judge says reality changes on a ruling, doesn't mean that it actually does, that's an illusion called law which is part of a larger illusion, called reality.

Live life, leave it better than you found it and harm no one.

Cheers - Dave

Would you guys please clarify... how do you qualify someone as female for the purpose of pageant participation?

What do you allow in cases of ambiguous genitalia? Would someone born with XY chromosomes and a vagina be allowed to complete? To ensure "purity," do you advocate testing all contestants chromosomal makeup? Maybe the contestant should be required to show that they're capable of reproduction?

Sex isn't as black and white as you may believe it to be.

Originally posted by FearEater
I vote no. I will not read the thread. My answer is final.

Miss Universe is for the female gender only. This MAN may think and look like a female, but HE is NOT naturally.

Period.

eta; I'm Canadian, we (or myself, anyways) have limits, and this is pushing it...

edit on 4-4-2012 by FearEater because: (no reason given)

Have you ever been fooled by a man like that before to think that way? Look its not the fact She used to be a man in body that is disturbing to you is it? Its that it dont fit your view of "normal" right? Its fine you have that opinion since you are entitled to one though. If the place where "she" lives accepts her as Female according to what between the legs its fine. Its her body. Do not judge others. Do you like it when people judge you? If the pagent stated SPECIFICALLY you have to be a GENETIC female then I would agree with you,but seeing as how it does not its no issue to them apparently. Well to the contest holders it isnt,but to the other genetic fems it does because shes actually cuter i think.

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
That's a hot dude...

yeah she/he is pretty,

i'm curious what her/his body looks like, how are all of the parts and how does all of that come about? so many questions...lol


all good with me though, still my brother/sister at the soul level

These contests should be for NATURAL WOMEN WITH NATURAL BODY AND NO BUL**IT ENHANCEMENTS.
Clearly if you allow any type of medical surgeries, then you have no right to disallow TG people from participating.

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by FearEater
I vote no. I will not read the thread. My answer is final.

Miss Universe is for the female gender only. This MAN may think and look like a female, but HE is NOT naturally.

Period.

eta; I'm Canadian, we (or myself, anyways) have limits, and this is pushing it...

edit on 4-4-2012 by FearEater because: (no reason given)

Have you ever been fooled by a man like that before to think that way? Look its not the fact She used to be a man in body that is disturbing to you is it? Its that it dont fit your view of "normal" right? Its fine you have that opinion since you are entitled to one though. If the place where "she" lives accepts her as Female according to what between the legs its fine. Its her body. Do not judge others. Do you like it when people judge you? If the pagent stated SPECIFICALLY you have to be a GENETIC female then I would agree with you,but seeing as how it does not its no issue to them apparently. Well to the contest holders it isnt,but to the other genetic fems it does because shes actually cuter i think.

Okay, game on.

I had a phase were I used to cross-dress. I knew it was wrong, but nobody knew I did it. I no longer do because I told myself it was wrong to decieve, even to myself. I read no bible or quaran, none of the sort. I thought my ways were normal, until I "stepped out of my box".

OKAY?

What this guy is doing is ^%$#ing wrong. HE WAS NEVER A "MISS anything" ... 'nd all the the plastic in the world won't change it.....Mentally, maybe he thinks, but never NATURALLY.

That is were I draw the line. I feel his pain, sure, but I also know HE can over come it. HE should never be allow to enter the female area, but i'm sure there is a transgender league HE CAN ENTER .... so why not go there?

eta; maybe he can't change it now, since he looks so "hollywood" ... Is it okay if my 210lbs. kicks his... sorry, her ass, should I dare find out SHE was a HE?
Man vs. man?
Or Man vs. She-man?
...Or what is it now?

Originally posted by FearEater

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by FearEater
I vote no. I will not read the thread. My answer is final.

Miss Universe is for the female gender only. This MAN may think and look like a female, but HE is NOT naturally.

Period.

eta; I'm Canadian, we (or myself, anyways) have limits, and this is pushing it...

edit on 4-4-2012 by FearEater because: (no reason given)

Okay, game on.

I had a phase were I used to cross-dress. I knew it was wrong, but nobody knew I did it. I no longer do because I told myself it was wrong to decieve, even to myself. I read no bible or quaran, none of the sort. I thought my ways were normal, until I "stepped out of my box".

OKAY?

What this guy is doing is ^%$#ing wrong. HE WAS NEVER A "MISS anything" ... 'nd all the the plastic in the world won't change it.....Mentally, maybe he thinks, but never NATURALLY.

That is were I draw the line. I feel his pain, sure, but I also know HE can over come it. HE should never be allow to enter the female area, but i'm sure there is a transgender league HE CAN ENTER .... so why not go there?

eta; maybe he can't change it now, since he looks so "hollywood" ... Is it okay if my 210lbs. kicks his... sorry, her ass, should I dare find out SHE was a HE?
Man vs. man?
Or Man vs. She-man?
...Or what is it now?

edit on 4-4-2012 by FearEater because: (no reason given)

Wow. Such judgemental statements. This "person" Is that better? IS not you therefore your personal judgement does not apply. How do you know what they can over come? Do you know how their life was personally before? And since when to beauty pagents have a league? A pagents is as Superficial as you can get looking at the outside. And most transexuals do not look better than most fems there as well. I almost gurantee you she will not win but the mere fact she wants to be in it disturbs you.Why? Is it because you dont liek being reminded of your past? And no if you kicked her ass it would be a hate crime. And also taking female hormones weakens the body to a point its almost like assaulting a natural woman. As for dressing up you stopped it because it was wrong? Or that you were scared to be found out? Im curious,not being mean ok?

reply to post by yuppa


I wanted to throw my past as an example, not as statement, may it have sound as. This MAN should not be allowed to enter this MISS UNIVERSE seeing as how she was a he upon birth. Also, as someone stated above;

Originally posted by deepankarm
These contests should be for NATURAL WOMEN WITH NATURAL BODY AND NO BUL**IT ENHANCEMENTS.
Clearly if you allow any type of medical surgeries, then you have no right to disallow TG people from participating.

Why not allow big plastic breasted females to enter it? Surely this pageant is no longer about being natural, as you appear to defend?

The fact this disturbs me is she failed to enter the year before due to the fact she was disocovered to be a MAN UPON BIRTH, where HE is entering a MISS UNIVERSE.... Thats what disturbs me... Is the world now supposed to accept that TRAGENDERISM IS OKAY and even more so, to enter into female competitions?


Is this okay to do now? Decieve at will, any means possible?

My past should not mean anything, I just needed to make an example of how things can be wrong, yet we (humans) can change it .....

Originally posted by Partygirl
Above: Mr./Ms.Talackova (on the right)

Wow… let’s start off by purposely demeaning Ms. Talackova and questioning her “proper” title, not determined by her legal sex, not by virue of being the owner of a vagina, but rather the sex determination as judged by Partygirl of ATS.

Personally, I do not believe Talackova can be considered a true woman in the sense that I am.

Another personal judgment.

As a Christian, I believe God made men and women differently for a reason. I understand this may not be a popular view, but it is mine, and I have a right to it.

An in your face “I’ll damn well say and believe what I want whether you like it or not” statement. You have decided to reject Ms. Talackova’s psychological screening and inner belief because your inner belief, driven by your religious bias, obviously knows better than anyone else what gods intent is.

From a biological point of view, there is a difference between Talackova and me in that every cell in my body has XX chromosomes, while every cell in his/her body has XY chromosomes. This is true – in every single cell – no matter what he/she hacks off or plasters on to the body that God gave her. Nor will this person ever be able to conceive and bear a child (well, not with current technology, anyway).

Are you positive that Ms. Talackova has XY chromosomes? Are you absolutely sure that you have XX chromosomes? Have you ever undergone professional karotype testing? Just because you were born with a vagina, and a simplified high school sex ed curriculum says that all males are XY and all females are XX doesn’t mean that that statement is accurate, because it’s not.

So I, personally, reject the notion that Talackova is a true woman. Sorry. If a man wants to dress and act as one, undergo surgery to look more like one, sleep with men, and be called “Ms.”, that’s fine with me – none of that bothers me. But deep down, I believe there is a difference.

A “personal rejection” is, in itself, a personal judgment. You categorically reject all evidence, and base you decision on the erroneous belief that people like this only undergo these life changing changes for purposes of vanity and sex. What is it about christian preoccupation with the sex lives of others?

I am also upset at the way “identity issues” seem to be rammed down our throat constantly. We are always having to walk on eggshells these days in case we offend somebody.

If this thread is any example of you walking on eggshells in an attempt to not offend others, you may want to reassess how it’s written.

Seems like lots of people use their differences from the norm to extract special recognition, or special privileges, or some kind of sympathy, or status as an oppressed minority.

You reject her eligibility to compete, you deny her the common courtesy of even using appropriate pronouns, you reject her beliefs and inner feelings, and then claim that you don’t believe that she is being discriminated against? Really? Rejection of a person’s very identity is, in my opinion, a serious form of discrimination.

I believe that as we strive to grapple with the challenges ahead, we humans we should be focused on what unites us, what is the same about us, and what we share. Feelings of compassion and sympathy flow from a sense of sharing something with other humans, not setting them apart from us. I can’t help but think the constant, steady need to assert people’s differences creates more problems than it solves.

How can you honestly say that you want to unite people, while dividing everyone with your own personal labels? You reject her by pointing out how she is different and unworthy of being a woman. That’s totally opposite of your claimed belief above.

I wanted to get a man’s view on this so I asked my brother what he thought. My brother is a pretty conservative guy: a fundamentalist Christian like me, and he's also an Iraq war combat vet.

How is a mans view any more right or wrong from your own? As an Iraqi war veteran I salute him for his service, but it doesn’t make his point of view any more relavant.

“They won’t rest until heterosexuality and attraction to women rather than men is a hate crime.” I don’t know if I’d go that far, but I can’t help but feel there is something more at work here, an agenda constantly being pushed by the mainstream media to denigrate heterosexuality and promote non-traditional ideas of gender and sexuality.

These people don’t hate you for your sexuality, they hate you because you’ve demonstrated your absolute lack of tolerance and understanding for them. They resent the hypocrisy of “Jesus taught us not to judge others, but I’ll judge you anyway because I’m uncomfortable with anything I don’t personally experience firsthand.” They resent having people tell them that they don’t deserve the same rights as you. If you treated them respectfully and allowed them equality in all respects I really believe that a lot of the negativity surround gay rights would fade into the night.

I resent being made the target of a campaign to warp my sexuality and assault my Christian values, and I think its accelerating on all fronts. And is insulting, the idea that “your values are wrong and you will be forced to accept the new values.” Everything from shaming tactics to the constant media drumbeat for things like this. It makes me feel like an object being “talked at” rather than a person involved in a dialogue as an equal, who would be “talked with.”

How is your sexuality being warped? Ms.Talackova obviously underwent her changes some time ago, so how has that negatively impacted your personal life? You claim that you would rather be “talked with,” but your mind is already set. Read your above comments. These issues can be discussed all day, but your set religious and social beliefs are already in place making negotiation impossible.

What I propose is that people respect the differences of others. Rather than argue over these issues, accept and love everyone unconditionally, and support their right to self determination.

reply to post by ~Vixen~


It's an interesting observation..

Is that almost everytime, I see someone against gay marriage, gays, ect. and in this case.. A transwoman.. It's always about them. Not the person. It always seems to be that they believe everyone is trying to force them to be gay, or to accept their way of life.

Anyways, this thread is completely disgusting.. I think we've seen some of the worst in ATS in it.

There is a difference between biological sex and gender expression. See this picture for details:

Gender

Seems like Miss Universe considers gender expression to be of importance, not biological sex.

I have a lotta love and respect for the hardships that "Gender Confused" people go through. It's not an easy deal and most I've know in life are really screwed up as a result. It's such a misunderstood thing.

That being said, "she" is NOT nor will ever be a woman. Being a woman consists of chemicals and brain patterns and biology you can NEVER replicate by surgery or science and I doubt it will EVER be accomplished.

Not a female, gotta go. sorry.

Originally posted by Maslo
There is a difference between biological sex and gender expression. See this picture for details:

Gender

Seems like Miss Universe considers gender expression to be of importance, not biological sex.

Sex is determined by what found between ones legs... gender is determined by what is known in ones head and heart.

reply to post by PaxVeritas


Actually.. that's exactly is.
The female chemicals and brain patterns stuck in a male body. Or was. Doubt she's got much maleness now.
Also, HRT consists of anti-androgens and estrogens. So, that has been replicated by science and has been for at least a hundred years now.