"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon." - Obama. What the MSM isn't telling you.

reply to post by Openeye


Both parties were "wrong" on a higher scale of morality that I don't even hold. However, Zimmerman is in the most wrong. He was out to make an example through vigillante justice. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he probably wanted to detain a sketchy looking black character in his neighborhood because through his experience "they always get away"
However, he had no right to infringe on the personal liberty of Mr. Martin in the slightest. Stalking a victim, scaring the victim, and approaching the victim in a low traffic area. Anyone would be frightened. Martin acted first out of flight, and then MAYBE fight (which is still unkown). However, if he did act out of fight, he is wrong on a higher morality scale, but right by state law. He was in fear of his life after an unknown man stalked him and essentially scared the living daylights out of him for no stated reason. He STOOD HIS GROUND. He was shot by his purser.

If Zimmerman respected the individual liberty bestowed upon Martin by the Creator/Source/God/Constitution/Nature/Social Contract then none of this would have happened.
If Martin could have escaped, he would still be alive.
If Martin reached for his phone, Zimmerman would have thought it was a gun, like he mentions in the 911 call.

Martin died because someone couldn't mind their business. An infringement of a personal liberty resulted in the death of a young man. The sovereignty of an individual was trampled upon and the constitution trumpers refuse to acknowledge it.

How fitting. Don't even bother getting offended.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
Let's end this intelligently.

Children are taught about stranger danger. When a man is following a person around in a vehicle, one has the right to be frightened for their life, especially when running away proved to be a exercise it futility.
According to the law, and everything that kid probably learned about from a young age about weird men following along in cars, he was definitely in his right to stand his ground.
Yes, and the same concept of stranger danger applies for an unknown figure walking around your neighborhood. Martin did not stand his ground. He ran at the first sight of Zimmerman's car.

If Zimmerman was attacked it was because the young man was afraid. He tried to run, it didn't work. He tried to avoid him, it didn't work. Zimmerman already had some intent in his mind when he said "They always get away". He decided to pursue a young man, minding his business, thus forcing a confrontation.
Martin was 6'3 and played football. Zimmerman was short and overweight. Martin could have easily out ran Zimmerman. Use some common sense.

Flight shoots off in the young man's mind. His girlfriend alerts him to run, he does so. Zimmerman pursues and approaches him. Guess what Florida Stand Your Ground Law states...uh-oh, Mr.Martin was definitely in some fear for his life. He was being followed by a strange man for no apparent reason. He attempted to flee, and it didn't work. A scared young man being followed by a non authority figure when there is no one around is forced to run or fight. If he did fight, he did so not as his first resort. He stood his ground after exhausting other options.
Martin could have easily fled. This was not a drive by shooting -- Zimmerman was out of his car and trying to question Martin. Martin attacked him, not knowing he had a gun.

Zimmerman is a fool, and a poor excuse of a human being. He disregarded the operator's instructions and intended to confront the young man to distribute some kind of justice. "They always get away"
There is some mens rea there for some type of physical altercation. If Zimmerman scared the young man to a point where violence occured, then Martin held a legal right to retaliate under state law. That means Zimmerman entered an altercation by stalking, provoking, chasing, provoking, and assaulting (not battery, look up the law) the young man to the point where the situation forced Martin to act within his legal right to defend himself. Zimmerman looks as if he lost the confrontation and shot the young man. Wrong move bud, wrong move.

And that's if Zimmerman was attacked (rightfully so). Hell, I bet some of you are going to say Mr.Martin should have called 911. Young Black man who Zimmerman is already suspecious of reaches for an indistinguishable object and POW. Dead anyways.

Mr. Martin was not going to walk away from this situation in any way shape or form unless he outran his pursuers vehicle, which he was unable to. A young man is dead, and people are turning this into a defend the other guy because Martin "may" have been doing something wrong...which there is no evidence of.
Except...there is evidence of a beating done to Zimmerman. By an athletic 6'3 football player who could have easily out ran Zimmerman.

edit on 23-3-2012 by TheOneElectric because: (no reason given)

Responses in orange

reply to post by MrWendal


No it doesn't but I would like to see the OP's rationale here.

reply to post by beezzer


He was on the phone with his girlfriend when he decided to run, she called the cops.

reply to post by Chalupas


Are you kidding me?? You think that post helps your case?? That post actually debunks itself!!!

Yes, and the same concept of stranger danger applies for an unknown figure walking around your neighborhood. Martin did not stand his ground. He ran at the first sight of Zimmerman's car.

Notice the VERY last word in the quote. CAR. Zimmerman followed him in a CAR. The rest of the responses go on to say how easy it would be for Trayvon to out run fat ol Zimmerman.... but how is going to out run someone who was just following him in a CAR?

Are you kidding me with this? A 5 year old can poke holes in this argument.

reply to post by Openeye

What if both parties were in the wrong?

That's an important question. But what we see is the media and supporters of both sides pointing fingers. They think someone has to hang for this and in the end it will end up being our civil liberties....again.

reply to post by MrWendal


I admit that I thought a neighborhood watch member was supposed to take a different approach when dealing with unsavory people in the area, but I don't know.

So while everyone jumps to conclusions before they know the whole story, I will sit back and wait for it to unfold. In the end we may have to blame both of them. Trayvon paid with his life and Zimmerman may pay with jail time.

Time will tell.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by MrWendal

 

No it doesn't but I would like to see the OP's rationale here.

It is something the MSM is not telling the people, which is what this thread is about. They are portraying Martin as an innocent, 12 year old, black child. But, in reality he is a young adult who sells drugs and was suspended from highschool.

I never stated that drugs had anything to do with his killing.

reply to post by Chalupas


Uh, yeah, I know. I gave no hint it was a drive by. I know Zimmerman approached Martin and attempted to question him (with hostility, I may add, "They always get away" he probably came off far too threatening when he approached the young man) . After following him. I still get frightened when people eye me up for a while and then approach me. I couldn't imagine running from a vehicle only to be approached by its occupant after I couldn't escape. Hell, the Florida law more than protects the actions of Martin if he did decide to strike out after being fed up with being chased. He stood his ground.

Zimmerman is in the legal and moral wrong.
Martin is also in the moral wrong, because violence is not the answer (that's if he did attack).
Zimmerman is in the shadow of death now because this is on his hands for not minding his own business. He has a life on his hands because he decided that he was the law, because "They always get away"

Zimmerman was not the law, this is not a race issue, and Zimmerman needs to pay for infringing upon a personal liberty to the point where it ended in the unfortunate loss of life.

I agree with the previous posters.

If I was walking alone at night and someone started following me, my first reaction would be "why the hell is this dude following me??"

If the person continued to follow me I would likely attack him considering following a person at night, who is alone, is aggressive behavior!

Being a neighborhood watchman is irrelevant. This person was in no position of authority and thus became the aggressor who ended up murdering someone.

reply to post by MrWendal


I do see your points and they are very good ones... I would also like your perspective given that you are involved in neighborhood watch.

Has your area had multiple break ins? If yes, have the suspects gotten away? Or have they been apprehended?

If no, how would your 'watching' change as a result of multiple break ins?

How would your watching change (if at all) if your neighbors had been broken into and no-one has been apprehended?

The police tape seemed to show that the guy was annoyed that "they always get away" hence perhaps why he wanted to follow the chap, rightly or wrongly.

Now couldn't trayvon have ran away if he was a scared teenager? If I had some lump following me I think I'd have just legged it. I certainly wouldn't jump out of a bush and attack the guy! It strikes me as odd behaviour for someone that is scared. As is standing there and staring.

I think if zimmerman just wanted to kill someone he wouldn't have called the police at all... On the audio you provided he also sounded kind of calm but concerned, wouldn't you be if you had multiple break ins in your area?

Originally posted by MrWendal
reply to post by Chalupas

 

Are you kidding me?? You think that post helps your case?? That post actually debunks itself!!!

Yes, and the same concept of stranger danger applies for an unknown figure walking around your neighborhood. Martin did not stand his ground. He ran at the first sight of Zimmerman's car.

Notice the VERY last word in the quote. CAR. Zimmerman followed him in a CAR. The rest of the responses go on to say how easy it would be for Trayvon to out run fat ol Zimmerman.... but how is going to out run someone who was just following him in a CAR?

Are you kidding me with this? A 5 year old can poke holes in this argument.

Martin ran at the first sight of Zimmerman's car. Zimmerman got suspicious and began to drive around trying to find him. Zimmerman lost him, as he says to the 911 dispatcher, and then decides to get out and look for him. Martin then attackes Zimmerman.

How hard is that to understand?

reply to post by Chalupas


Where is your proof?

Originally posted by xEphon
I agree with the previous posters.

If I was walking alone at night and someone started following me, my first reaction would be "why the hell is this dude following me??"

If the person continued to follow me I would likely attack him considering following a person at night, who is alone, is aggressive behavior!

Being a neighborhood watchman is irrelevant. This person was in no position of authority and thus became the aggressor who ended up murdering someone.

Agressive behaviour would be attacking someone who is curious as to why you are walking alone at night and running from cars.

reply to post by mee30


There is absolutely no proof or even proof of anyone claiming Martin jumpedout of a bush and attacked Zimmerman.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by Chalupas

 

Where is your proof?

Obama himself has come forward and compared Martin to his own children, and even his son if he had one. The MSM is only using his 7th grade graduation photo.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by mee30

 

There is absolutely no proof or even proof of anyone claiming Martin jumpedout of a bush and attacked Zimmerman.

Proof is in my OP. Go read them. Zimmerman had a bloodied nose and blood coming from the back of his head. Eye witness reports claim that Martin was ontop of Zimmerman when he fired the shot.

reply to post by TheOneElectric


Yeah its pretty much hypocrisy at its finest. But I believe that is what the US is best at, other than making movies.

And I agree Zimmerman's (illegal) actions directly influenced Martins actions, which must be considered to view this logically.

I live in Los Angeles, and I know damn well that if someone was following me at the dead of night in my neighborhood I would run like hell and if all else failed I would fight. Call me paranoid, but crazy stuff happens out there in this big mean world.

reply to post by Chalupas


Hey you, I don't care if it was a 42 year old man shot. Zimmerman is clearly wrong and infringed upon another person's personal liberties to the point where a life was lost. There is no defending that. If Zimmerman minded his business and tried not to be The Batman, then one less life would have been lost on that day and the police would have handled the situation.

But no, please do defend this infringement. Because I swear to god, when the illuminati comes for you and sends you to the FEMA camps I don't want to hear any complaints. (humor, folks, humor...but you get the point)

Originally posted by Chalupas

Originally posted by xEphon
I agree with the previous posters.

If I was walking alone at night and someone started following me, my first reaction would be "why the hell is this dude following me??"

If the person continued to follow me I would likely attack him considering following a person at night, who is alone, is aggressive behavior!

Being a neighborhood watchman is irrelevant. This person was in no position of authority and thus became the aggressor who ended up murdering someone.

Agressive behaviour would be attacking someone who is curious as to why you are walking alone at night and running from cars.

I would attack anyone who followed me around at night and who wasn't a cop. Sorry, but I just don't have the luxury of chatting up some stalker to find out if he was just 'curious' about me or not.

How about this. Go follow some people in the dead of the night and tell me how that works out for ya.

Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by TheOneElectric

 

Yeah its pretty much hypocrisy at its finest. But I believe that is what the US is best at, other than making movies.

And I agree Zimmerman's (illegal) actions directly influenced Martins actions, which must be considered to view this logically.

I live in Los Angeles, and I know damn well that if someone was following me at the dead of night in my neighborhood I would run like hell and if all else failed I would fight. Call me paranoid, but crazy stuff happens out there in this big mean world.

I'm sorry, but what illegal action has Zimmerman done? Following somebody is not illegal ( especially if you do it while talking a 911 dispatcher)