Trade Professional (RE: Ancient Monuments): "I can not build even one wall. Here's a theory."

Originally posted by Sahabi
It's one thing to simply lift an obelisk in an upright position, or to simply move the infamous Thunderstone. I've seen engineers accomplish such feats with simple pulleys, winches, and a basic knowledge of physics.

However, I can not even position a small part on a standard cnc work-table with precision. A crane can only get me "close enough" and the rest must be meticulously bumped and moved with a rubber or aluminum mallet. You're not just going to bump or drop a megalithic stone into a precise position.

In addition to the precision craftsmenship of the ancient stones themselves, the megalithic stones are also set, assembled, and placed with intricate precision. You're expecting me to believe that mega-ton megaliths were precisely positioned on site using ropes, pulleys, and winches?

Howdy

So you conceded that man can move heavy stones, I presume you also concede that he can cut them out, or do we need to relook the evidence for that too? So your only point left is positioning?

So you are professional hopeless compared to those ancient builders? lol

You're expecting me to believe that mega-ton megaliths were precisely positioned on site using ropes, pulleys, and winches?

Add in levers, sand and craftsmanship, yes - there ain't any other technology or culture in sight and it was done for thousands of years in a hundreds of locations.

What was your explanation again?

If they had some amazing technological ability why does it only show up ONLY in masonry, they ground down their teeth on stone rolled grain, died because they didn't understand the germ theory or santiation, odd that they were so 'allegedly' advanced in one tiny area of knowledge and clueless in others

So how did they build the Parthenon to the precision they did? After you answer that with 'its smaller stones' my next question will be, what is the exact size that you state is impossible to position.

I'm a firm beliver in Antediluvian technology..looking though the Bible and noting the 10 generations before the Flood, according to scripture, by the 3rd generation (Peleg) had circumnavigated the globe. If thats the case, whos to say that people were not capable of far more impressive feats? If we have only crossed the globe as late as 500 years ago...put it into perspective.

reply to post by IronArm


An aside how do you get Peleg going around the world from Genesis 10.25 and 1 Chroncile 1.19? Oh and need it be said, no biblical flood. You might want to start another thread if you want to discuss Peleg

reply to post by Sahabi


Gracious, Sahabi, you nailed this one!

Thank you for the excellent compilation of information.

Great, great, job.



I still believe in aliens, but I do think you make some great points.

I have studied the texts and mythos of several ancient civilizations of the Americas and they do have all-too-similar stories of people coming from the skies to teach. Honestly, I do find the similarity and lack of deviation in the stories and recorded images to be more than just coincidence.

reply to post by gaurdian2012


It's not the only theory left.

While the OP did do a good job of debunking this ridiculous ancient alien theory. (Of which I know plenty about, watching the show) There is still one more theory that has yet to be debunked.

The Reptilian/Supernatural/Demonic intervention theory. Which can only be explained to and understood by people who believe in God. (You know, that guy up there that you never see and have an increasingly diminishing faith in?)
I shall make a thread about it, but let me make some things clear first.

He's not a guy. Okay? He's an entity and that's all that can be said.

Atheists don't even bother anticipating my coming thread. You people are already looked down upon by society and that's where you belong, unless of course your open-minded like normal intelligent people are.

I shall make a thread, but m laptop battery is running out, and incidentally, I need to reach 20 posts

Great thread, its like your reading my mind!!

But in contrast, i do believe in aliens to some degree. With the logic that throughout billions of years, and billions of planets, we cant be the only one thats ever had life.

Originally posted by shake101
[Atheists don't even bother anticipating my coming thread. You people are already looked down upon by society and that's where you belong

LOL, and that is what was said about the early Christian too.....I didn't quote your 'open minds' part as the irony was just to much ....lol

reply to post by Hanslune

If they had some amazing technological ability why does it only show up ONLY in masonry

I'm glad you raise this point! The Iron Pillar of Delhi (Ashokan Pillar) is an ancient testament to metallurgy. Estimated to have been built between 912 BCE up to 400 CE. Its alloy composition and smelting process is amazing!

The pillar has attracted the attention of archaeologists and metallurgists and has been called "a testament to the skill of ancient Indian blacksmiths" because of its high resistance to corrosion.

Also, don't forget about all of the amazing things mentioned in the op, such as the Antekythrera Mechanism, the knowledge of extremely advanced mathematics, science, and cosmology.

And all of this was done by idiotic cavemen? No! Population reduction and genetic bottlenecks in our DNA... ancient cities submerged since the thaw of the last ice age.

I am saying we've been here before. This is all of the proof. Nothing about aliens or magic.

reply to post by Hanslune

So you conceded that man can move heavy stones, I presume you also concede that he can cut them out, or do we need to relook the evidence for that too? So your only point left is positioning?

I am saying that our ancient ancestors did things and knew things that modern science is only re-revealing to us. We are suffering from a global amnesia of past development cycles and near-extinction cataclysms.

Impressive thread. I wish more threads like this would come to light. Thank you for applying real world knowledge and logic to such a clouded theory.

As a child, I was fascinated by the ancient, megalithic sites all over the world. It blew my mind to think flesh and blood people carved solid rock with such precision and craftsmanship, and it still blows my mind today. Seeing the giant granite blocks in the great pyramid really sparked my fascination and the more I researched the more I realized, It had happen all over the world. People had carved and fit megalithic stones together with such accuracy, a piece of paper couldn't slide between. I was particularly intrigued by the Fortress wall of Sacsayhuaman, the ruins at Machu Picchu, and the Wall at Tiwanaku. All of which feature walls made of pretty hefty rocks that fit together, almost seamlessly, like a jigsaw puzzle.

As an artist I began trying to make my own rock carvings when I was about ten years old. They were primitive at first, almost like cave paintings. Mainly just designs and symbols, carved as deep as possible,into the largest rocks I could find. I guess I was sort of obsessed with the idea that I could carve an image into stone, and it had the potential to last for thousands of years. The first few I did were on rocks that lay on the side of a hill. I picked the four biggest ones, which were around seven to nine feet long, by three to four feet wide, and maybe one to two feet thick. I figure by picking the largest ones available, I would increase the chance of the limestone blocks never being moved. I carved a few different symbols include a spiral, a cross, an outline of my hand, a geometric cube, and the dates in which the carvings were completed. After that, I was totally hooked.
Where ever I went, I kept my eye out for good rocks to carve. I gathered several one hundred pound rocks from my dads property and from the sides of the road. In my dads back yard, I carved them into different faces, the detail progressing from one to the next, as my experience grew.
At about age twelve, I decided I wanted to build a monument type structure out of four or five blocks, each about the size of a milk crate. This is when the issues arose. I started the base of the monument with the largest of the rocks I had selected. I chose this stone because it was slightly larger than the other four and the top and bottom of it were already basically flat. I did a little work on the bottom of this block first, and got it flat enough to set sturdy on the ground. Over the next week or so, I carved on the top of the block, trying to make it as level as possible. When I thought is was 'good to go' I moved on to the second rock of the stack. I worked hard to get the bottom of this block like the top of the last to ensure the fit I was looking for. I had to remove it over and over, reworking it to get the fit I wanted. I ended up working on this little project for several years until I got out of high school. I never achieved the fit between blocks that I wanted, a fit like what you see at the walls I mentioned above. I ended up using small wedge shaped pieces of rock to shim up the stack, other wise it would have had a slight wobble to it when touched. I'm not saying it's impossible to do by hand, but I worked tenaciously for several years on a few tiny rocks and I couldn't get them to look anything like what the ancients did. I realize, I'm an amateur sculptor, not a professional stone mason. But, I am meticulous with my art production, and it is frustrating when, as an artist, you are unable to manipulate the medium in which you're working. Carving rocks to look like a face or head is one thing, making rock fit together like our ancestors did, is something totally abnormal.
After high school, I even tried to carve sand stone in this same fashion. As soft as sandstone is, it was still difficult to get a good fit between blocks. I still couldn't replicate the tight seams and I eventually came to the conclusion that, only by using a saw would I be able to fit the blocks together tight enough.
During my fifteen year landscaping career, I built many rock structures including walls and patios. In some cases I used the largest rocks available for purchase locally, and they had been cut my a large rock saw. Even the saw cuts didn't make the flat surfaces totally level and planed off. There were always areas of the rock that didn't fit quite like the rest. Even still, I think many of the sites I've constructed may have the potential to last for thousands of years.....if I'm lucky. But obviously, none of them are any where near as impressive as the sites in South America or in Egypt.

My Dad is also a precision machinist and has talked of the difficulty in shaping stone. He's not sure how they did it and neither am I. Maybe they did get help from someone or something. Its a mystery for sure and we may never know.

TXML S&F

AWESOME AWESOME thread. One of the best I've ever read here on ATS. I wish i could give you 10 stars and flags.


BUT, I still believe it's aliens...

reply to post by Sahabi


Only the bible says that the pyramids where made by slaves while back in reality, the pyramids where made by actual craftsman, not slaves. They put their marks on the stone, an interesting fact while i was watching Hawass (did i just say that? :lol

We don't know who made those ancient monuments. Was it us or someone else...

Originally posted by TheLastStand

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by CB328

Give me a long 2x4 and a 1500lb object,I can move it

Yes, but try that with a 100 ton stone and see what happens.

That's right.

For that, you'd need a 4x4.

Harte

Best I've lifted was 15T on a tower crane. I find it hard to believe they could really lift that it would have to be rolled 100T would rip apart any metal they could use in the era to move an object with. It's possible they could have constructed hemp slings a series of them might make such a thing possible but then how to move the stone without leaving marks all over it is definitely something special.

Sand ramp explains it all.

No marks, whatever angle you want, some rope in front and a bunch of guys behind,

Note that the stone would never need to be lifted off the ground or anything, just ramped up to position, then undermined on the "down" side.

In fact, the bottoms of Egyptian obelisks (like Cleopatra's Needle) are designed with a shape that would facilitate them being placed in this way (undermining.)

Obviously, other monoliths, like the ceiling stones in the King's Chamber of the G.P., would be done some other way. But they still would not require lifting off the ground completely into the air, like a crane does.

Harte

Congratulations to the op, I have always thought of this theory and im pretty convinced about it, if we only think of what would prevail of our society in 10.000 years if a mass extinction event happened today... then this theory is totally plausible.

(my first post ever... hello to everyone from Patagonia, Argentina)

reply to post by Harte

Sand ramp explains it all.

In the op I mentioned that an average human hair is about 0.003 inches or 0.0762 millimeters thick.

The stones of these ancient sites have a precision fit between each contact surface. This means no sand particles or even a human hair is between the contact surfaces. There is absolutely no room for debris to be stuck under any of the blocks. It was an extremely clean assembly... far too clean for sand ramps.

your thread very well put together, it's always nice to hear from someone who has background experience, we need that kind of input, to stop and think, see things a little differently. I can believe we have come and gone a few times, who knows what knowledge we have lost.

Originally posted by shake101

Atheists don't even bother anticipating my coming thread. You people are already looked down upon by society and that's where you belong, unless of course your open-minded like normal intelligent people are.

I shall make a thread, but m laptop battery is running out, and incidentally, I need to reach 20 posts

Sorry to the OP for going a bit out of topic here but I couldn't resist. It's funny how religious people consider atheists. Despite Don't judge for not to be Judged they still think have the right to look upon others as like they have the divine truth on their side :p . And the irony goes even further when the quoted member gives lesson of open minded while is judging others with the closest mind possible. Atheism is what made science move ahead. 500 years ago they were the first atheists who said no to the church and dogma and put the wheel of progress in motion. If it wasn't for them, we'd be still considering earth as flat. I'm glad your battery run out. Sparing the bs is a necessity on this site.

I wanted to reply to this earlier, but I was checking it out on my phone and its suuuuch a pain. Your original post - FANTASTIC!!!

Entirely plausible theory. I've teetered back and forth between humans advancing, falling apart, and advancing again, and alien intervention, as well as a combination of both (humanity advances, humanity collapses, aliens intervene somewhere along the line in the next wave of human advancement.)

I think what your theory does is explains how it is entirely possible that its been all humans all along. Realistically, it doesn't eliminate the possibility of alien intervention.

I do find it insulting to the intellect that there are people who, despite evidence and explanations, still believe not only that we can build with that level of precision today, but that it could be done with chisels and hammers and stones thousands of years ago.

An idea hit me the other day about megalithic stones. If we had advanced technology thousands of years ago, whether because of past human advancement, or alien intervention, it would be entirely plausible that we (or they) used nanotech or picotech assembly to build these structures. Use fairly local materials, run the program, and awaaaay we go. Especially if there was a belief that the structures should be "in harmony" with the surrounding area, or "hidden", or whatever other reason there might be for using "granite" or "limestone" with the same properties as that which is found in the original source material in the area. Anyway, that's just an idea I thought I'd throw out there.

great thread. The dinosaurs were here millions and millions of years before modern human. I often wonder if the dinosaurs evolved to the point that they could have the knowledge to leave the earth. Perhaps these are the "aliens" that we see. Perhaps they had the knowledge and these giant structures were built to their scale. we humans are narcicistic to think that we are the only creatures that evovled to this point. The dinosaurs had hundreds and millions of years. Lizard people? perhaps....

reply to post by Hanslune


it was either sound waves or light waves.

Both have been around for ever. Both make up everything that is.

It's the only answer that actually makes any sense in my opinion.