Do commandments and threats negate free will?

Do commandments and threats negate free will?

Christians think that God gave man free will. There is no question in my mind that we have free will. I think it natural. I believe that free will is something that we take and not something that can be given. Freedom is a natural part of human existence and can only be given to us if it is being forcibly restrained.

When my children chose to exercise their freedom or free will from the restrictions in our home and moved to their own, any right to control their actions was shifted from my hands to theirs. In effect I did not give them that freedom. They took it. Just as you did when you left your parental care and control. I lost the right to impose my standards on them as well as the right to reward or punish them for what they do in their homes.

God also gives mankind all kinds of commands. We are also told that if these commands are not followed, we will be severely punished. This includes loving and adoring him.

To Christians then, God gave us freedom or free will yet kept the right to reward and punish. If we compare that to the reality of life with most families, it seems that God did not give anyone free will. Instead he gives command and basically says to follow them or be punished.

Do commands and threats negate your idea of what free will is?

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This is a very large portion of the reason I do not agree with Christianity, or any religions based on Judaism. I find it difficult to believe an omnipotent and benevolent being would create a race just so that race would serve Him/Her/It.

One, that's not benevolent. That's tyranny, especially considering the threat of eternal damnation in the fiery pits of Hades if you don't do it.

Two, that's not omnipotent. If our creator wanted a race of kowtowing servants, humans were not the wisest choice. An omnipotent and omniscient being would know this.

Just saying.

reply to post by Greatest I am
Free will , free choice ,At one point in my early life I believed I didn't really exist ...My Dads belt finally found my backside and I could no longer deny reality ... What we all choose to believe is our own choice ,and we have the free will to prove it ... good question good post...peace

He gave us the commandments for OUR benefit,look at the world now,you really think Gods commandments are the problem?
I am pretty sure no one is following them,even so called christians and religious people....
Jesus says we need to believe in Him,not because of Him,but because of us.
If we follow His laws and ways we can't fail.

Originally posted by faithplusone
He gave us the commandments for OUR benefit,look at the world now,you really think Gods commandments are the problem?
I am pretty sure no one is following them,even so called christians and religious people....
Jesus says we need to believe in Him,not because of Him,but because of us.
If we follow His laws and ways we can't fail.

No, that's not the problem. The problem is this:

We were designed a specific way. Had we been designed any other way, we wouldn't be alive. So our creator gives us a bunch of commandments, for our own safety...since we're such an unstable species. Unfortunately, the very nature by which we were developed, prevents us from efficiently following those safety guidelines.

Like I said, if we were mean to follow every one of those commandments, why would our creator make it so difficult? Why not just hardwire it.

This is one of the many questions that religious leaders have failed to answer for me. "God works in mysterious ways." Hahaha, bull#. The only mystery around here is false understanding. We are our own ball and chain...

And guess what? Your god made us that way. Who should you put your faith in now?

HAHA! This video made me laugh! I especially liked the part with Jesus knocking at the door!

Free will flies in the face of the God of the Old Testament. If that god exists then certainly free will doesn't. But, free will does exist! I guess god (Jehova) doesn't.

You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”]

I dont get it whats so bad about them?

I believe in free will and I do not see a contradiction with commandments. The commandments are common sense and most have real life consequences not even looking at Divine ones. They are warnings meant I believe, to protect us.

reply to post by vaelamin


theres way more commandments then 10 read a book in the old testament called leviticus

Originally posted by vaelamin
You shall have no other gods before me.

What god? The Jewish god? The Islamic god? the Christian god? We can't even decide who god is!

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Really? You don't see anything wrong with this commandment?

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Whoa! Touchy much? My God!

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Well, it would be nice if TS never HTF on the Sabbath. Babies are born, people die, accidents happen on the Sabbath.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Right, so if dad sell's you into slavery to settle his debts, its all good. I guess dad can have sex with his daughter too?

You shall not murder.

Unless god or your government tells you to.

You shall not commit adultery.

Two consenting adults, non of my business.

You shall not steal.

Ah! God condones property rights.

Chief Seattle's Thoughts
How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us.
If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?
Every part of this earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people. The sap which courses through the trees carries the memories of the red man.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Okay!

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”]

I don't know, it's ok for god to be jealous, but keep your hands to yourself! Don't be motivated by what others have.

I think the problem started when God made us is His image. That's why we're a bit hard to control. He had the angels already (without Free Will); humans were meant to be more.

Another problem I see is that a lot of the message of God is messed up by certain parts of "sacred" texts that were obviously inspired by man, not God. When you put the basically good message of God mixed in with these human-inspired books, things get contradictory.

Originally posted by 35Foxtrot
I think the problem started when God made us is His image. That's why we're a bit hard to control. He had the angels already (without Free Will); humans were meant to be more.

Another problem I see is that a lot of the message of God is messed up by certain parts of "sacred" texts that were obviously inspired by man, not God. When you put the basically good message of God mixed in with these human-inspired books, things get contradictory.

Just an observational and perhaps rhetorical question, if angels don't have free will, how is it that a third of them rebelled?

reply to post by windword


Angels do have free will since they are fully capable of sinning. Also the rebellion hasent happen yet.

Originally posted by Iamschist
I believe in free will and I do not see a contradiction with commandments. The commandments are common sense and most have real life consequences not even looking at Divine ones. They are warnings meant I believe, to protect us.

The answer is simple. We will, in certain instances, covet things because desire is a natural part of being human. We will, in certain instances, have to steal, unless we want to pray and have faith and eventually die from lack of food when out in the wilderness. We will, in certain instances, disrespect our parents because despite attempts to pretend otherwise, they are not always right.

In certain instances, we will even have to kill. I would consider it foolish to stand in front of an Iraqi and say, "Praise the Lo - !" *headshot* Especially if you have a gun.

Human nature contradicts nearly all of the commandments, because we are now animals rather than intelligent, wise beings. The commandments are no longer valid, for men have become wolves...creatures of violence and instinct and desire.

Wolves with guns, that's what we are.

I wish it weren't so, but that's the truth. It's that simple.

What god? The Jewish god? The Islamic god? the Christian god? We can't even decide who god is!

reply to post by windword


He's talking about all of the gods. norse greek sumerian ect. Bible seems to imply that they exist. Also this is written for the israelites who are his people.

Really? You don't see anything wrong with this commandment?

I dont even fully understand that one.

Whoa! Touchy much? My God!

Do you know the definition of the word vain?
Having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth

Do christians/catholics not do this all the time when they belittle others about them not knowing God?

Well, it would be nice if TS never HTF on the Sabbath. Babies are born, people die, accidents happen on the Sabbath.

This one seems to have been abolished by jesus.

Right, so if dad sell's you into slavery to settle his debts, its all good. I guess dad can have sex with his daughter too?

I find it interesting how you think honoring your parents somehow deals with slavery or sex with ones child. Interesting mind you seem to have.

Unless god or your government tells you to.

Correct.

Two consenting adults, non of my business.

Good message to teach your kids. be sure to cheat on your spouse. I like it seems edgy and hip.

Ah! God condones property rights.

So you wouldnt mind if i was to steal from you? Can i have your address?

I don't know, it's ok for god to be jealous, but keep your hands to yourself! Don't be motivated by what others have.

Jealous for worship vs jealous for possesions.

reply to post by vaelamin


The bible is explicit about adultery, but nowhere does it admonish child molestation. In a society that owns it women and daughters, I would think that it happened often.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

reply to post by windword


Leviticus 18:1-29

And Jehovah continued to speak to Moses, saying: 2 “Speak to the sons of Israel, and you must say to them, ‘I am Jehovah YOUR God. 3 The way the land of Egypt does, in which YOU dwelt, YOU must not do; and the way the land of Ca´naan does, into which I am bringing YOU, YOU must not do; and in their statutes YOU must not walk. 4 My judicial decisions YOU should carry out, and my statutes YOU should keep so as to walk in them. I am Jehovah YOUR God. 5 And YOU must keep my statutes and my judicial decisions, which if a man will do, he must also live by means of them. I am Jehovah.

6 “‘YOU people must not come near, any man of YOU, to any close fleshly relative of his to lay bare nakedness. I am Jehovah. 7 The nakedness of your father and the nakedness of your mother you must not lay bare. She is your mother. You must not lay bare her nakedness.

8 “‘The nakedness of your father’s wife you must not lay bare. It is your father’s nakedness.

9 “‘As for the nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father or the daughter of your mother, whether born in the same household or born outside it, you must not lay bare their nakedness.

10 “‘As for the nakedness of the daughter of your son or the daughter of your daughter, you must not lay bare their nakedness, because they are your nakedness.

11 “‘As for the nakedness of the daughter of your father’s wife, the offspring of your father, she being your sister, you must not lay bare her nakedness.

12 “‘The nakedness of your father’s sister you must not lay bare. She is the blood relation of your father.

13 “‘The nakedness of your mother’s sister you must not lay bare, because she is a blood relation of your mother.

14 “‘The nakedness of your father’s brother you must not lay bare. You must not come near his wife. She is your aunt.

15 “‘The nakedness of your daughter-in-law you must not lay bare. She is your son’s wife. You must not lay her nakedness bare.

16 “‘The nakedness of your brother’s wife you must not lay bare. It is your brother’s nakedness.

17 “‘The nakedness of a woman and her daughter you must not lay bare. The daughter of her son and the daughter of her daughter you must not take in order to lay her nakedness bare. They are cases of blood relationship. It is loose conduct.

18 “‘And you must not take a woman in addition to her sister as a rival to uncover her nakedness, that is, besides her during her lifetime.

19 “‘And you must not come near a woman during the menstruation of her impurity to lay her nakedness bare.

Idk seems frowned upon. Also Hebrews and christians arent the only people to sell there relatives into slavery. Lots of nations did. Arent there some historical records of the Gauls selling there people into slavery of rome for wine?

reply to post by vaelamin


Lets not forget...

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

Okay.

I guess there really are a lot more than 10 commandments.

I'm glad that was then and this is now.

reply to post by Akragon


Yes it seems according to the old testament God doesnt really care all that much for women. Neither did many other nations that i can recall besides Sparta.

Okay. I guess there really are a lot more than 10 commandments. I'm glad that was then and this is now.

They arent commandments there simply statuetes/laws. All through leviticus i cant seem to find once where the word commandment is used. But maybe the translation im reading is just diffrent. The only commandments i can find are the ones that have been written in stone.