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Do commandments and threats negate free will?

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posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by vaelamin
reply to post by Akragon
 


Yes it seems according to the old testament God doesnt really care all that much for women. Neither did many other nations that i can recall besides Sparta.




Okay. I guess there really are a lot more than 10 commandments. I'm glad that was then and this is now.


They arent commandments there simply statuetes/laws. All through leviticus i cant seem to find once where the word commandment is used. But maybe the translation im reading is just diffrent. The only commandments i can find are the ones that have been written in stone.


I contend the OT God was not the one true God... Jesus came to show us the true God actually is merciful and loving...

OT God was an imposter IMHO





posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Starchild23
This is a very large portion of the reason I do not agree with Christianity, or any religions based on Judaism. I find it difficult to believe an omnipotent and benevolent being would create a race just so that race would serve Him/Her/It.

One, that's not benevolent. That's tyranny, especially considering the threat of eternal damnation in the fiery pits of Hades if you don't do it.

Two, that's not omnipotent. If our creator wanted a race of kowtowing servants, humans were not the wisest choice. An omnipotent and omniscient being would know this.

Just saying.
edit on CThursdayam303021f21America/Chicago23 by Starchild23 because: (no reason given)


+ 1

I agree except for your view of Judaism.

Take Eden for instance and how they viewed it.

The way you know it is the way Christianity reversed it.

www.mrrena.com...

Much of what the Jews believe have little resemblance to what Christianity did with it.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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I would suggest reviewing the letter to the Galations.

It explains that God gave us all those laws to prepare us for salvation through Jesus Christ.

The laws laid out what God's standards were for living perfectly. With the laws being given, nobody was capable of following them fully, and because of that we are all counted as sinners.

It is through demonstrating to us that none of us can attain to perfection that helps us to realize our need for a saviour. That is why Jesus Christ came and, as a human, succeeded in living a perfect life, so that he could take our place in punishment for being sinners (not living up to God's standards).

The free will comes in where we have the ability to acknowledge our inabilities and accept that Jesus Christ took our place in dying (death as punishment for sin) so that we can now go on to be with God when our mortal life is concluded here. Otherwise, we will be considered unacceptable in God's presence.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by the2ofusr1
reply to post by Greatest I am
 
Free will , free choice ,At one point in my early life I believed I didn't really exist ...My Dads belt finally found my backside and I could no longer deny reality ... What we all choose to believe is our own choice ,and we have the free will to prove it ... good question good post...peace



Forgive him. He was doing the best with what he had.

Thanks for the kudos.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by faithplusone
He gave us the commandments for OUR benefit,look at the world now,you really think Gods commandments are the problem?
I am pretty sure no one is following them,even so called christians and religious people....
Jesus says we need to believe in Him,not because of Him,but because of us.
If we follow His laws and ways we can't fail.


If we followed his laws, we would be barbaric monsters.

www.youtube.com...

Think of his laws and are you ready to stone your children or your neighbors?

Get your head out of God's ass and think for a change.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by vaelamin
You shall have no other gods before me.

I dont get it whats so bad about them?
edit on 23-2-2012 by vaelamin because: bolded


How does one do this first when God is not here for us to know he is the one we are not to put someone before.

Further, who are these other gods we are to reject?

Further. Jesus booted his genocidal son murdering father out of that position with his-----only through me.

# the Father. The Son is in charge.

BTW. You are aware that even God breaks quite a number of his own commandments. Right.

Coveting another man's woman for one. Lying for another. And he certaily likes to kill us.

Regards
DL
edit on 23-2-2012 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by Iamschist
I believe in free will and I do not see a contradiction with commandments. The commandments are common sense and most have real life consequences not even looking at Divine ones. They are warnings meant I believe, to protect us.


Any command that includes willfully enacted consequences if not obeyed imposes ones will on another. Inducing fear via such threat is a form of manipulation of the victim's will. Free will would be absent of other wills being imposed on it.
If you cannot see that then -------.

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:39 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by 35Foxtrot
I think the problem started when God made us is His image. That's why we're a bit hard to control. He had the angels already (without Free Will); humans were meant to be more.

Another problem I see is that a lot of the message of God is messed up by certain parts of "sacred" texts that were obviously inspired by man, not God. When you put the basically good message of God mixed in with these human-inspired books, things get contradictory.


Just an observational and perhaps rhetorical question, if angels don't have free will, how is it that a third of them rebelled?


Yeah. I once got beat by a nun for asking that very question. Like I said (kinda), the conglomeration of sacred texts used by most religions causes lots of contradictions. It's hard to figure out what started as divine inspired works or things put together by an ancient lawyer trying to justify his argument for the latest sentence handed down or "Execurive Orders" authored by some insecure tyrant of Olde Israel and slipped into the latest Holy Book in the temple.

That's whay I tend to keep faith a personal thing.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by vaelamin



You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.


Okay!




You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”]


I don't know, it's ok for god to be jealous, but keep your hands to yourself! Don't be motivated by what others have.



You forget that God coveted Mary and I think that God causing prophets to lie is good enough to cover false witness.

Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
1Kings 22:23

Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
2 Chron 18:22

Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.
Jer 4:10

O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. Jer 20:7

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
Ezekiel 14:9

For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Thessalonians 2:11

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by davidchin
I would suggest reviewing the letter to the Galations.

It explains that God gave us all those laws to prepare us for salvation through Jesus Christ.

The laws laid out what God's standards were for living perfectly. With the laws being given, nobody was capable of following them fully, and because of that we are all counted as sinners.

It is through demonstrating to us that none of us can attain to perfection that helps us to realize our need for a saviour. That is why Jesus Christ came and, as a human, succeeded in living a perfect life, so that he could take our place in punishment for being sinners (not living up to God's standards).

The free will comes in where we have the ability to acknowledge our inabilities and accept that Jesus Christ took our place in dying (death as punishment for sin) so that we can now go on to be with God when our mortal life is concluded here. Otherwise, we will be considered unacceptable in God's presence.


It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

As to you wanting to profit from the murder of an innocent man.
Do you really that a good moral position. If so you will find out differently when God sends your sorry ass to hell for trying to use a scapegoat to get into heaven.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 03:55 PM
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How does one do this first when God is not here for us to know he is the one we are not to put someone before.


Then why would it even matter? according to David he seems to know about other gods.

Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord (Psalm 86:8)




Further, who are these other gods we are to reject?


Obviously the ones the romans,greeks,persians,sumerians and among others seem to worship.




Further. Jesus booted his genocidal son murdering father out of that position with his-----only through me.


Did he? I cant fully remeber all the words of matthew.




BTW. You are aware that even God breaks quite a number of his own commandments. Right.


You mean the commandment he made for the people of israel to follow? I dont see anywhere in the bible where it says he must also follow them. Why does a God need laws for himself? Is he not Divine? Can he not do as he pleases?





Coveting another man's woman for one. Lying for another. And he certaily likes to kill us.


I dont remeber lying being one of the commandments. The coveting im guessing your talking about david? Who is considered to be by far his favored servant.Obviously i would think that by him being his favorite he would get away with certain things. But he was still punished anyway when God took his son away.




Any command that includes willfully enacted consequences if not obeyed imposes ones will on another. Inducing fear via such threat is a form of manipulation of the victim's will. Free will would be absent of other wills being imposed on it. If you cannot see that then -------.


Does fear not grip you when you think of doing a certain crime? The consequences of going to jail/prison for an undetermined amount of time. Given the way you think dont the laws of the goverment also take away are freewill?



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


If I tell you not to touch a hot stove, and that if you do, there will be consequences. I am not stopping you from touching the hot stove, therefore you have free will to touch it or to trust me and not touch it.



posted on Feb, 23 2012 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by Starchild23
 





Wolves with guns, that's what we are. I wish it weren't so, but that's the truth. It's that simple.


I will accept that what you have said is your truth, it is not the truth. It could be said that we have always been wolves, first with rocks, clubs etc. only the weapons have changed, not us, but that is not the whole truth and I have seen your discussions on other topics and I know that you know this is so.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by Iamschist
reply to post by Greatest I am
 


If I tell you not to touch a hot stove, and that if you do, there will be consequences. I am not stopping you from touching the hot stove, therefore you have free will to touch it or to trust me and not touch it.


Your analogy is directed to an action that would cause pain. Something evil.

You are comparing it to an action of eating from the tree of knowledge and God himself says that that action leads to something quite good. To be as Gods. God's own words, and scriptures tell us that that that is exactly what we are all to do. Emulate God.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Care to revise your poor analogy?

Regards
DL



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by vaelamin

How does one do this first when God is not here for us to know he is the one we are not to put someone before.

Then why would it even matter? according to David he seems to know about other gods.

I am not David and you have not answered the question.

---------------------------------------------------
Further. Jesus booted his genocidal son murdering father out of that position with his-----only through me.

Did he? I cant fully remeber all the words of matthew.

Then look them up.
-------------------------------------------

BTW. You are aware that even God breaks quite a number of his own commandments. Right?


You mean the commandment he made for the people of israel to follow? I dont see anywhere in the bible where it says he must also follow them. Why does a God need laws for himself? Is he not Divine? Can he not do as he pleases?

Look closer.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If God needs not follow his own advise then if we follow scriptures and emulate him then we need not either. You want your cake and eat it too.
---------------------------------------

Coveting another man's woman for one. Lying for another. And he certaily likes to kill us.


I dont remeber lying being one of the commandments. The coveting im guessing your talking about david? Who is considered to be by far his favored servant.Obviously i would think that by him being his favorite he would get away with certain things. But he was still punished anyway when God took his son away.

We are speaking of God coveting. Not David.

Did God not covet Mary?
Yes he did or he would not have used her to reproduce himself. Quite the trick but it is your theology and not mine.
----------------------------------------

Any command that includes willfully enacted consequences if not obeyed imposes ones will on another. Inducing fear via such threat is a form of manipulation of the victim's will. Free will would be absent of other wills being imposed on it. If you cannot see that then -------.


Does fear not grip you when you think of doing a certain crime? The consequences of going to jail/prison for an undetermined amount of time. Given the way you think dont the laws of the goverment also take away are freewill?

Of course. They are coercive and so are the laws of God.

They coerce with known consequences written in law while God just arbitrarily punishes over and above his stated law.
That is immoral.

Regards
DL



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 10:50 AM
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I'm under the impression that freewill is or may be only valid depending on who you are.

Jer. 1 v 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Gal. 1 v 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood

So it would seem that special plans for special people. Which begs the question, is this isolated? Or does it show that this all powerful being already have it mapped out and simply pressed play.



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 





Care to revise your poor analogy?


No. The question is not about the goodness or badness of an action, the question is do we have free will or do commandments negate that. I will stick with my "poor analogy"



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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Threats do not exist...

Rules/commandments do...

The 'rules' are procedural imperatives necessary to navigate a dualistic nature locum.

FREE WILL exists...it is the 'dice' we roll on the gameboard of created existence, created for the purpose of the game, for us to play...

...anything which results from FREE WILL can be interpreted in any way you like (FREE WIL).

FREE WILL installs the precept of RESPONSIBILITY, personal and group...utilise FREE WILL to elicit a 'bad' result and you are responsible, and vice versa...

'Choose' to not believe in FREE WILL, and you are using your FREE WILL to do this! It is an inescapable 'condition' which brings its own results based on a sense of personal and group RESPONSIBILITY.

Commandments do not negate FREE WILL...which is why the convenient excuses of 'temptation' and 'being saved' etc are slotted in to make sense of a very simple, very real concept.

Akushla



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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Read this sentence carefully...

Do not walk off the edge of a cliff, or you will die.

Is this a threat, or a warning of the results of trying to ignore the laws of gravity?

...and at any point you are free to choose to heed advice or not, or, take it as a threat...rebel (thinking yourself more knowledgeable/powerful...whatever) just like a well known angel, who also had FREE WILL...

Akushla

edit on 1-3-2012 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by drivers1492
I'm under the impression that freewill is or may be only valid depending on who you are.

Jer. 1 v 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Gal. 1 v 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood

So it would seem that special plans for special people. Which begs the question, is this isolated? Or does it show that this all powerful being already have it mapped out and simply pressed play.


Scriptures do indicate that we are not created equal and that some are hated by God even in the womb.

Nice God that. Not.

Does that negate free will? For sure. All will to be loved by God.

Regards
DL




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