Evidence Of Advanced Technology Thousands Of Years Ago In Peru (Interesting)

Many ancient civilizations were more advanced than people give them credit for. But people here give them far too much credit, and not enough for just being a human - that is, incredibly curious, a drive to make something work, and ingenuity. People can do amazing things if they set their minds to it. The problem these days is that science bails us out. We no longer require the same levels of cleverness to survive on a daily basis. Our ability to really think outside the box and make something work has been stunted.

But for you folks who feel they had amazing help (i.e. aliens) or amazing tools (i.e. lasers, advanced machinery, etc.), use some common sense. If they met aliens, don't you think hey would be depicted and recorded everywhere? They'd record any amazing thing. They would immortalize events they couldn't understand in stone. But they couldn't be fussed with aliens? People feel a red blotch in a tiny tunnel is "proof" of ancients recording aliens. C'mon.. if there were aliens, there would be records of it all over the place.

And advanced machinery - people think they flew around in planes, had advanced tools, etc. And yet.. while we have the supposed end results of work with such tools, we don't have the tools themselves. So a rock hunk made by lasers is still around, but the lasers are not? They'd need power. Ergo, power plants. They'd need factories. They would need a plethora of things of which there would still be proof of. In archaeology, when they dig up civilizations, they often dig up in layers. If they found statues, blocks, or anything else at a certain depth of an excavation, they would find the tools and whatever else was around at the same time, at the same depth.

Where are the rivets and screws and fabricated materials, tools and factories; any proof that they had more advanced tech than we thought? We can't find it, because it's not there.

reply to post by AuranVector


It's an interesting theory that the Andes and much of the world was in turmoil such a short distance in our past, but whether it is true or not I do not find 10,000 or even 18,000 a huge leap off the path. As some suggest 100,000s or millions of years ago we had advance civilizations come and go is where I start seeing fantasy deeply imbedded.

Originally posted by Marco0Aurelio

If you still don't see anything strange, then twist it no longer, I think the way I do and you the way you do and it's fine.

They cut, moved, built big stone structures throughout the world in our past many times over, why would I then find it strange in Peru? There is two ways to look at this... One is to say they had the knowledge to do this with the basic tools, man power, and materials at hand for their era.

The other way is to say man could not do this without lost advanced knowledge, some kind of magic or super human powers, or they had help from some super advance alien race.

With zero proof on the second way I tend to lean towards the first way. Can you tell me of a third way?

What's the purpose of trying to convince me about what it is all about, do you know what happened?, noooooo

I'm not trying to convince anyone, but trying to understand why people take huge leaps in thinking how things were done. We have a primitive culture and people just jump to all kinds of Ridiculous directions.

So, we can see that at this point is like the one that makes a claim/statement and then remain mute when asked about it, that is it's just a egotistic desire to draw attention to yourself, and I'm not here to feed any kids mouth

I suggest the act of cutting stone, the man power involved was a layman's job, and you asked me

Only in a high tech or academic community would stonework like that be considered lowly.

They were either primitive or they weren't.

The lived a very primitive lifestyle, but also did amazing stone work by primitive means, and primitive does not mean stupid. We can both agree they had the ability to do it, so why should the method be something well beyond all their other capabilities for their era? How would they have high tech in one area and not in many other areas too, why would across the world all the cultures that were master stone workers have high tech in stone working and still live primitive lifestyles in the same way?

To me this form of logic just does not make sense and makes a puzzle piece that doesn't fit into anything unless you start to add in advance alien technology, lost super human powers, or very ancient cultures that have come and gone reaching the high tech level over and over across eons. All this is pure fantasy with nothing, and I mean nothing, to support it. I don't believe the writings of Tolkien is real either, but Tolkien is as real as these other hypotheses.

I don't think it's alien technology, however I find it funny as the linear model of technological innovation is falling through the floor.

This site was previously linked, and it's major critique is the absence of tools.

Unfortunately, these stonemasons weren’t giving away any secrets, or writing them down. Judging by the Freemasons, architects and builders who, some say, trace their lineage back to mystery schools of ancient Egypt, they were a secretive lot

How far back do some of these precision cuts go? We can surmise that this technology must have came abruptly to the Egyptian masons, because they went from building modest step pyramids to precision masterpieces within 20 years.

Only one figured it out, and he independently came up with the same method I did." What method is that? "Ultrasonics."

O.k the parabolic mirror theory was more convincing, but she just throws this one out here. She doesn't even give her own theory as to how they were producing frequencies of 19,00 to 25,000 hertz.

How old are China's pyramids? One clue comes from the 1910 diaries of two Australian traders, who noted what an old Buddhist monk told them --- that in the 5,000 year old records of his monastery, those pyramids are mentioned, described even then as being very old.

There's no evidence to show that there was written records at that time and area, so were they oral records or written records?


But of course there is still the mystery of how they would move the stone, here's an interesting account

And that very well may have been the case. But there is an intriguing passage in a history text by the 10th century Arab historian, Abul Hasan Ali Al-Masudi, known as the Herodotus of the Arabs. Al-Masudi had traveled much of the known world in his day before settling in Egypt, and he had written a 30-volume history of the world. He too was struck by the magnificence of the Egyptian pyramids and wrote about how their great stone blocks were transported. First, he said, a "magic papyrus" (paper) was placed under the stone to be moved. Then the stone was struck with a metal rod that caused the stone to levitate and move along a path paved with stones and fenced on either side by metal poles. The stone would travel along the path, wrote Al-Masudi, for a distance of about 50 meters and then settle to the ground. The process would then be repeated until the builders had the stone where they wanted it.

I could not independently verify this

Here's an idea...

If you have some level of bronze metalworking or early iron/steel metalworking you actually would have the tech available to produce a very good abrasive material using some "alchemy".

Get a good and hot enough blast furnace going using powdered coal coke and mix that coke with sand. (Different than making glass where you try to keep the sand separate.) If you do it right the silicon in the sand will separate and bond to the graphite from the coal powder. You should get a rough slaggy material with lots of crystals. It's a pretty well known modern abrasive getting up there right next to diamond in the hardness scale. You can usually find this material at any hardware store that has sandpaper or abrasive cutting tools, as it's simply known as silicon carbide.

Silicon carbide may have officially been "discovered" using a scientific process in the 1890's, but considering how it can be made - I wouldn't be surprised if much older cultures had access to it and figured out the same usage.

I think it would be neat if an archaeologist or two would look for some evidence of it in old furnaces and such.

Then there is natural moissanite (a form of silicon carbide) and corundum (a type of sapphire) exist in the kind of volcanic material that yields other gemstones. If you have a mine set up for gems and jewels somewhere, you'll also have access to some rather good natural abrasives. Likely since it's a "waste" material from mining for gems, there's going to be more than enough for applications like stone-cutting.

I'm sure somebody will also ask where the tools using it are, but in ancient times people were good at recycling. Something made with bronze that ends up broken or worn out is likely melted back down at a smithing workshop and cast into something else. If any tools still exist they'll be quite rare for that reason.

I'm also one to think ancients may have had more access to steam power than we're aware of. They may not have had anything resembling engines, but rudimentary applications using some sort of pressure vessel are possible once you figure out metalworking where you are able to make half-decent enclosed containers. Something that produces a jet of steam with entrained abrasive material sounds like a very good stone-cutting or polishing tool to me, and seems quite possible and perhaps simple enough to make with bronze-age tech. (I think somebody with some smithing skills should try making such a tool using "ancient tech" criteria when it comes to materials and test this hypothesis.)

Originally posted by Xtrozero

The lived a very primitive lifestyle, but also did amazing stone work by primitive means

Yeah? how is that?

, and primitive does not mean stupid.

Sure it doesn't intelligence is a dynamic thing and it is ever present.

We can both agree they had the ability to do it

No, we can't.

, so why should the method be something well beyond all their other capabilities for their era?

Because to know how to do something, you first have to learn it, if nobody can teach it to you you'll go through old good trial-error, if you are concerned with survival, you would not even be able to picture some grand thing, your thought proccessing would be occupied.

We can approach it from many angles, the neuro psicological one, the technical one and many other and that theory would fall from almost all of them.

Let me remind you that for instance egypt was claimed by the egyptians to have been built in the period of gods, and if you check early and posterior atempts to build pyramids, you'd get an idea that construction techniques became less and less efficient as time went by.

Same thing in Peru, the tribes living there told the conquistadors that they had been living there for a long long time, yet the structures where there before they arrived.

Don't believe me go check all of this for yourself.

How would they have high tech in one area and not in many other areas too, why would across the world all the cultures that were master stone workers have high tech in stone working and still live primitive lifestyles in the same way?

To the first question the answer is irrelevant. We have to accept that if there was some advanced group it didn't mean that all of humanity was developed, there were many primitive hominid branches (and there still are, more than conventional science will tell you as far as I'm concerned).

Therefore if there was this group, the rest of the hominids were just servants, and the tales of the bible and the sumerian records look more like tales for this hominids that for an advanced group if you think about it.

To me this form of logic just does not make sense and makes a puzzle piece that doesn't fit into anything unless you start to add in advance alien technology, lost super human powers, or very ancient cultures that have come and gone reaching the high tech level over and over across eons. All this is pure fantasy with nothing, and I mean nothing, to support it. I don't believe the writings of Tolkien is real either, but Tolkien is as real as these other hypotheses.

edit on 25-2-2012 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)

If you are able, like I and many other people to see this incongruencies, then you desing and test different scenarios, when you see that there's actually evidence for this scenarios you realise you are getting closer to it.

But as I said before, If you don't see anything out of the ordinary, then don't strech yourself, I'm sure there's sth more useful (for yoursef) that you can do.

If you are, on the other hand, able to accept other scenarios that fit in better, then just keep a neutral, open, realist POV and you will begin to "see the light".

reply to post by Marco0Aurelio


People now think that the future will be talking and thinking machines, what they don't realise (because science didn't get there yet to corroborate) is that human is one of the most advanced piece of engineering that exist in the universe.

Follow me on this thought experiment...

What would happen when you make a smart machine and you see that electronic circuits is not enough?, when you realise that electric and electromagnetic processing of info is not enough?

You make them interact with the environment in a lumino (light) sono (sounds - vibrations) electro (electromagnetic fields) gravitic ( detection of gravitational fields) way and proccess info in an electro chemical based way.

When you realise that advanced logic organising thinking is not enough? you make a different area to connect them to the souce of creation, to infinite intelligence and creativity and at this point (being you the creator) you connect them to yourself making them creators and almost gods themselves.



Another thing, I have though that the -Believer vs Debunker- issue might very well be a genetic one.

One of the prime features of DNA is information storage (check the latest discoveries on the field), epigenetics being the study of genetical short-term information.

Now, remove from the picture the ignorant people (those who follow other people views and are incapable of personal judgement) and the dis information agents (which are very real and there's tons of info that offer proof for this).

What are you left with?

People who sincerely are looking for the truth.

Now imagine that some f those peoples have genetic memory of something great, sth huge, sth magnificent, they are more prone to gravitate to explanations that require more complexity and intelligence involved (in my own path led me to discover my own essence and divinity). This people is open to different explanations no matter how crazy as soon as they make sense and they can be conected to self in a meaningful and proveable way.

Whilst the others may not have these memories and so they rely on what their on genetic urges tell them that history should be like or the universe or what ever. This people will tend to gravitate to the explanations of "what their DNA tell them it has seen", so will tend to reject different explanations and would have a harder time accepting that aliens exist (for instance) even if they landed in front of themselves.

That's just a theory I have been thinking about.

Originally posted by AGWskeptic

Originally posted by TWISTEDWORDS
reply to post by zarp3333

 

The secret to gravity is this; In order to stop magnetism from affecting you, you would have to completely block it out. So the real question is how do you block all magnetism from affecting your surroundings? If someone can figure that out, they figured out anti-gravity. So far we know that Gold and other few materials posses the ability to block out magnetism, but the earth still produces what they call magnetism on non-ferrous metals. So GOLD is still affected. That brings back how do you stop all magnetism from affecting your surroundings? So far no one has been able to do it.

So we would need something like a fermi cage that blocks magnetism instead of electricity.

Interesting.

Don't you mean aFaraday cage?

A farday cage does block magnetism, BTW.

However, magnetism has nothing to do with gravity.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
reply to post by Harte

 

I think you totally missed my point in all this about mirrors... My point was the possibilities only from what they had available for their time period.

I still think simple string saws and abrasion material that I have said many times already, where do you stand on this issue.

I've said twice in this thread what I think was done. My thoughts on this are purely evidence-based.

Your "string theory" certainly sounds good, but no way they did that.

For sawing, they used weighted toothless copper saws with sand as an abrasive.

Harte

reply to post by AuranVector

This entire post is fantasy. Sorry, Lake Titicaca is no where near the largest lake, it is the largest lake at the highest altitude above sea level (outside of Tibet). Lake Baikal in Russia holds the most fresh water of any lake in the world and Lake Superior has the largest inland fresh water surface area. If a civilization lived around there when it theoretically was at sea level, the tectonic forces that crated the Andes would have left zero trace of such, and sorry once again, you are just a few million years off. The writers of the source information you offer are twisting several different things together that can't possibly exist together to write a nice fiction of their fantasy, it doesn't happen that way. What they describe is cataclysmic, an ELE, and will leave no trace of any man made structures.

reply to post by pauljs75


I like they way you think... Thinking of ways to use the materials they had at hand for thier time.

Originally posted by Harte

For sawing, they used weighted toothless copper saws with sand as an abrasive.

Harte

I can go with that too, in both yours and my scenario they used sand mainly as their abrasive material. I do say sand in a general sense as in a sand like abrasive material they had access to, also my string theory was just a way to add the force needed for the sand to work. I see your way is just as good or better.

reply to post by Marco0Aurelio


The problem is that there is no light without substance, and there is just no substance to the advance race hypothesis.

reply to post by Marco0Aurelio


If it is genetic it boils down to how much proof does one need to believe. So some they want physical proof that follows a logical path, for others they need no proof of anything, they just believe.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Harte

For sawing, they used weighted toothless copper saws with sand as an abrasive.

Harte

I can go with that too, in both yours and my scenario they used sand mainly as their abrasive material. I do say sand in a general sense as in a sand like abrasive material they had access to, also my string theory was just a way to add the force needed for the sand to work. I see your way is just as good or better.

Rope saws require the extra step of embedding sand into the rope.

Also, rope would abrade almost immediately. Wearing down of a copper blade would (obviously) also occur quite quickly. However, once the rope abraded, it would be useless, as it wouldn't fit through the sawed slot anymore, while the saw can be used continuously until it wears down to nothing.

Not to mention the fact that the saw method has been tried and shown to be quite effective (see various links in this very thread, as I stated earlier.)

Harte

reply to post by Xtrozero


Mmm no, what I was trying to say is that some people will be content with an explanation that doesn't really explain the whole phenomenom whilst other will venture further.



BTW, to cut granite you need diamond, sand will not make the trick. As reagarding the concrete theory I say yes It can explain some constructions (maybe even that of the great pyramid as the french investigator proposed).

Try to apply any of those explantions to this one:


www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...

Originally posted by Marco0Aurelio
BTW, to cut granite you need diamond, sand will not make the trick.

Unfortunately (for you,) it's already been shown in this very thread that sand will do the trick.

Read much?

Harte

reply to post by Harte


True same hardness at seven.

Yet how where the cuts made to be so perfect? I doubt that such a rudimentary technique would allow for the close fit that these structures are known for. An engineer showed that at no point could you fit a papper in an interstice, that is not a posible result with that kind of cutting.

And there's the problem of the transporting, the smaller stones could be carried, the larger ones could not (by any of the explanations I've seen so far).

Btw I scanned your posts and in no one did you provide an explanation for how can this have been, so I paste it again:

www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...

Originally posted by Marco0Aurelio
reply to post by Harte

 

True same hardness at seven.

Yet how where the cuts made to be so perfect? I doubt that such a rudimentary technique would allow for the close fit that these structures are known for. An engineer showed that at no point could you fit a papper in an interstice, that is not a posible result with that kind of cutting.

And there's the problem of the transporting, the smaller stones could be carried, the larger ones could not (by any of the explanations I've seen so far).

Btw I scanned your posts and in no one did you provide an explanation for how can this have been, so I paste it again:

www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk...

edit on 26-2-2012 by Marco0Aurelio because: (no reason given)

You're posting a pic of a false door that was shallowly carved out of a small cliff face and saying it can't be explained?

Chiseling can explain the entire thing. What's the problem?

As far as the close-fitting, it's not been shown that the fit is so close all the way through. That is, we can't see what kind of contact the stones have on the inside of the wall.

However, there is nothing to prevent stones from being carved to fit, and then adjusted with more chiseling on-site.

Also, I kind of like the idea of softening the outer surfaces as needed, as was stated earlier by someone that (somehow) believe that stones can be melted, then poured into a mold, and then they will re-form into the same kind of stone again.

I believe that poster mentioned a certain plant compound that can soften some stones. I've recently (in the last year) read more about this and it turns out to be true, though not on such a scale that one can liquify entire stones (and certainly, if one did, one could not put humpty dumpty back together again!)

This is sort of analagous to the softening of granite using fire, which I mentioned concerning the Egyptians.

Looking at the stones themselves, I'd say that saw jigs were used to make the cuts precise. I'm certain they were used in Ancient Egypt so why not South America as well?

Harte

Puma Punku stunnes most people´s minds because of the sheer modern looking precision these stones were fabricated. A simple Google picture search offers interesting views, I just stumbled over these nice ones.

There likely are stone specialists here on ATS, who commented before.The idea is, earlier mentioned, that these stones definitely show structural characteristics of cast stone.
The question is not, how, when, who. The question is strictly technical.

- the upper area looks broken off, like a plaster of sort. Or a casting layer that came of.

the cross-shaped inward forms, too, rather look cast than chiseled.

remember, there was a team that did a research on the stone material of giza and they showed proof of cast stone:

A year and a half later, after extensive scanning electron microscope (SEM) observations and other testing, Barsoum and his research group finally began to draw some conclusions about the pyramids. They found that the tiniest structures within the inner and outer casing stones were indeed consistent with a reconstituted limestone. The cement binding the limestone aggregate was either silicon dioxide (the building block of quartz) or a calcium and magnesium-rich silicate mineral.
The stones also had a high water content—unusual for the normally dry, natural limestone found on the Giza plateau—and the cementing phases, in both the inner and outer casing stones, were amorphous, in other words, their atoms were not arranged in a regular and periodic array. Sedimentary rocks such as limestone are seldom, if ever, amorphous.
The sample chemistries the researchers found do not exist anywhere in nature. “Therefore,” says Barsoum, “it’s very improbable that the outer and inner casing stones that we examined were chiseled from a natural limestone block.”
More startlingly, Barsoum and another of his graduate students, Aaron Sakulich, recently discovered the presence of silicon dioxide nanoscale spheres (with diameters only billionths of a meter across) in one of the samples. This discovery further confirms that these blocks are not natural limestone.

www.livescience.com...

It surely would be interesting, if that could be done in puma punku.

reply to post by Hanslune


actually the Incas AFTER the Spanish arrived had a saying for the structures built by them and the Spanish.

The HUGE and perfect ones were built by the Incas, and the other small, dinky, crude and ugly ones were built by the "Incapaces" which means the incapable.

They didn't just produce those structures again. They never built them to begin with. Most peoples of the old world and the Americas occupied existing cities that were abandoned in the far distant past.