Reading the Bible

Hey there ATSers,


Since the beginning of the year I've been working at a small (65 room) hotel here in town. My shifts have been evenings (3-11) and nights (9p-7a) so I've had a lot of extra time on my hands. My previous jobs have been at much larger hotels and this has been a somewhat relaxed change of pace for me, as I spend the night shifts on the internet and watching television.

First up on my list of things to do with all this extra time is read the Bible start to finish. I literally started at "In the beginning..." It's worth noting that I am as agnostic as they come. I don't believe in something just because others tell me it's real and have also grown tired of believing what others tell me is written in the Bible without just taking it in myself.

It's frustrating to me that so many are willing to swear by - or dismiss - a book that they have not read in its entirety. It's akin to signing a contract without reading the fine print. So I've decided to do some thorough research myself.

A couple of surprises so far...

-When Adam and Eve gain "knowledge of Good and Evil," God says "Now they are like Us." Now this could mean angels and other heavenly beings but they are not mentioned this early in the book. This mention of "Us" comes when only four characters are present: God, Adam, Eve and the Serpent. (The word "Us" IS capitalized also.)

-Many characters are said to live 800 or more years. Now, if you take 800 years to mean 800 months it equals 65 years and makes a whole hell of a lot more sense. Maybe 'years' was translated incorrectly

-Adam and Eve had a kid named Seth

-God is just completely disappointed with the human beings he first creates. So he does what any logical being would do and drowns them, only to make more of the same and continue to be frustrated with them.

-The first thing Noah does after the water dries up is get hammered on wine and pass out in his tent naked, and his son Ham finds him. He tells his brothers and they cover him up without looking.

-The Tower of Babel story seems to be lacking loads of details. First they're building this tower and then God says "look, you guys are being jerks trying to build this thing so high - you're starting to act like gods, so...you got different languages now." Sounds like an oppressive dictator, something to take in to consideration.

I'll be posting follow-up threads as I continue reading. It's turning out to be pretty fascinating.

A lot of people who try reading it in sequence get bogged down in the legal books, Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and don't get started again. You may want to postpone those two if you find that a problem.

When you get to the histories and the prophets, the histories are the real backbone of the story (N.b. Kings and Chronicles are two parallel versions). You will understand the prophets much better if you appreciate where each one fits into the historical timeline.

read the vedas, more interesting, more scientific, less fear mongering

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
read the vedas, more interesting, more scientific, less fear mongering

I'm glad your 666th post was in this thread

reply to post by DISRAELI


Thanks for the advice, it's been smooth-sailing so far but I'm sure I'll get frustrated here in the next 200 pages or so

Originally posted by Hawking

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
read the vedas, more interesting, more scientific, less fear mongering

I'm glad your 666th post was in this thread

had to happen sometime

and considering i make most of my post in the religion and metaphysic forum i don't think it's too surprising . but who knows, i might have been lucky enough to be born the antichrist. i wonder what super powers i have. maybe i'll end world hunger and poverty.

The bible doesn't start to make any sense up until the New Testament, many scholars believe that the old testaments were written as allegories, metaphors, and some even believe that it was secretly coded to hide the secret truth and knowledge that Jewish mystics and Kabbala proponents use even now.

The old testament is contradictory in nature, and whenever someone tries to decimate the bible they always point to faults and flaws in the old testament. Now we know Jesus was a historically accurate existing man and we know he was a teacher what we dont know is whether what is written in the bible is historically accurate and if they were truly his teachings or mere interpretations of the writers. One thing for certain is Jesus was the most famous person in all of history and the most influential this cant be refuted.

Originally posted by mrjefffort
The bible doesn't start to make any sense up until the New Testament, many scholars believe that the old testaments were written as allegories, metaphors, and some even believe that it was secretly coded to hide the secret truth and knowledge that Jewish mystics and Kabbala proponents use even now.

The old testament is contradictory in nature, and whenever someone tries to decimate the bible they always point to faults and flaws in the old testament. Now we know Jesus was a historically accurate existing man and we know he was a teacher what we dont know is whether what is written in the bible is historically accurate and if they were truly his teachings or mere interpretations of the writers. One thing for certain is Jesus was the most famous person in all of history and the most influential this cant be refuted.

all of that can be refuted actually. not to dis jesus. Once you separate him from the mess that is Christianity he's an interesting teacher. i think he probably existed though, afterall there are like 60ish gospels about him. Unfortunately, christainity hasn't done much good when it comes to enhancing life. installing fear into children? made all other cultures evil and of satan? it isn't life enhancing, quite the opposite.

reply to post by biggmoneyme


I actually agree with you the point i was trying to make was the old testament is very tricky and contradictory so people bad mouthing the bible usually reference to it. The new testament is more used to indoctrinate, control, dominate and empower people so while the old testament comes off as silly, the new testament comes off as dangerous

reply to post by Hawking

Sounds like an oppressive dictator, something to take in to consideration.

People back then expected that sort of thing.
If you did not describe someone really mean who treated people like worthless slaves them people would feel uncomfortable and not think the person could possibly be a god.

The Old Testament IMO is THE greatest historical story EVER told.!
Not what you expected huh.?!
WHen you read the bible like it's supposed to be read it's just absolutely fascinating.

That said here are a few tips for your venture:
Don't go into reading the Bible with a pre-disposition
Read it completely literally.! Metaphors are very scarce in the Old Testament.!
Note chronological position, don't assume anything. It might create some confusion but you have to really think about it and you'll get it right instead of assuming like you know.


THE biggest fabrication about the Creator is that he is some omniscient, omnipotent, invisible force. Through the Old Testament the description of God is of a very physical presence. He doesn't know what's going on all the time and if that was the case he wouldn't have asked Eve what was wrong when she ate from the tree.!

Now I'll try to answer some of your questions hopefully this clears some things up.

1. The translated word for Us (note proper noun) is Elohim. Elohim can be singular or plural depending on context. In this case it would read "Let us make man in the likeness of Us (Elohim)". The author can't be talking about Adam and Eve because that would mean that his new creations are like 'Us' but separate at the same time, so that would only leave the serpent. Also this could certainly mean the implication of a group that the creator belongs with or was present during creation. This is no mistake, plurality of God is mentioned many times in the Old Testament. You know how many mentions are there of a just a singular God? None.! Ancient Isrealite religion was actually henothestic, meaning other gods but one is perfered. Monotheism is an invention of the Church MANY years later.

2. Back then humans were living up to a thousand years and more. I'm absolutely sure this is not mistranslation as such an error would be grievous and the translations is pretty simple. You do have records from diff. societies at the time whose kings were said to have lived thousands of years. So either they actually did or alot of people don't know what they are reading.

3. Yes, God destroys almost all mankind a total of 3 times because of their persistent resistance of righteousness. Finally he says, well you know what if my creations want to keep rebelling I'm going to let them rebel and surrender them to my counterparts, 70 of them in fact. See Duet. 32:8-9. The Lord picks one man, Abraham who has not strayed from the path of righteousness. This is when Israel is created and when the creator now becomes, the Lord God of Israel. Titles are VERY important.

4. Nimrod dares to be like "the Most High" by building the tower of Babel so high. The Lord decides to inflict the workers with many diff. languages, so because the difficulty of communicating the project fell through hahahaha. Jealous, vengeful with sort of a sense of humor. Doesn't sound like some infallible invisible spirit right?

Originally posted by mrjefffort
The bible doesn't start to make any sense up until the New Testament, many scholars believe that the old testaments were written as allegories, metaphors, and some even believe that it was secretly coded to hide the secret truth and knowledge that Jewish mystics and Kabbala proponents use even now.

The old testament is contradictory in nature, and whenever someone tries to decimate the bible they always point to faults and flaws in the old testament. Now we know Jesus was a historically accurate existing man and we know he was a teacher what we dont know is whether what is written in the bible is historically accurate and if they were truly his teachings or mere interpretations of the writers. One thing for certain is Jesus was the most famous person in all of history and the most influential this cant be refuted.

Hahahahahahahaha you're way off my friend.

Many scholars DO NOT believe the Old Testament were written as allegories or metaphors. That's just paranoia. Kabbalism origins lie with a group of Jewish sages that passed down the teachings through Oral law.

The Old Testament is in fact very literal, scribes did not write abstractly but rather concretely. Abstract is a Greek thing, which the New Testament was written in. Now that's a confusing book, parables you know haha. Metaphors were kept to a bare minimum in the OT. Books in the New Testament bare the most results of hapablesis and parablesis. Western philosophy had muddied the waters on alot of things, inlucding the bible. Ancient Isrealite religion didn't view physicality and spirituality as separate but as a unity; the concept of separation was un-heard of. Western idealogy covants such, so when you try to put YOUR interpretation on the bible rather understanding how and when it was written it becomes confusing. An objective exegenesis of the both the New Testament and Old Testament is key.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Hawking

 

Sounds like an oppressive dictator, something to take in to consideration.

People back then expected that sort of thing.
If you did not describe someone really mean who treated people like worthless slaves them people would feel uncomfortable and not think the person could possibly be a god.

Yeah people now adays have a problem being subservient to something they see little of, but back then God ran a much tighter ship.!

You make a lot of bold statements, id like to see some proof behind this I really would because i am curious to know but there is no way of knowing what the mind of the writers who wrote the bible were thinking.

Advocates of such a parablepsis hypothesis would logically be forced to argue that the text in question not only suffered parablepsis, but that a scribe later deliberately inserted the extra letters after the parablepsis occurred. The unlikelihood of this intellectual retreat is manifest. Typically, scribes altered or deleted letters deliberately to “protect” God or to correct theology (such as with the tiqqune sopherim ).26

- Dr. Micheal S. Heiser

For example, it is well known that the MT of the books of Samuel is in poor condition in a number of places, suffering instances of significant haplography.15 The books of Kings are riddled with both short and lengthy pluses and minuses, transpositions, and chronological differences.16 Likewise, portions of the MT of Ezekiel, especially chapters 1 and 10, could serve as a veritable digest of textual corruptions.17 Lastly, the MT of the book of Jeremiah is fully one-sixthlonger than the text of the LXX.18

- Heiser

www.thedivinecouncil.com...

"On the contrary, the raw Hebrew text states: va'rauch elohiym merahkefet- And wind Elohyim fluttered (hovered) What does that exactly mean? Rule #1 consider the source! The ancient Hebrews did not believe in spirits of any kind. They always dealt with concrete facts,perceptions, and ideas. For instance, the wind was something concrete they could feel! They did not imagine spirits. That's a greek thing."

- Chris Asterson The Big picture

Less I go into the origin of Greek mathematics? Pythagoras and the irrational number? Abstract geometry?

I also was reading God of the Old by Richard dawkins at the library, I didn't check it out so I can't quote it but he said something like this:

He basically went on to describe the process of getting to know the authors of the Old Testament. Sometimes these scribes would write and get their point across but they'd draw it out and sort of ramble. See Isiah 9: as he is instructed to rail against the King of Babylon and compares him to the falling of the morning star or Venus. So the authors do make comparisons to events and peoples of the time, but to say that's all they did would be pretty asanine. And if that was the case we would know very little if anything about our creation and the ensuing events. It'd just be a mashup of vented anger and discretion but thankfully the Old testament seems to be very contextually and chronologically consistent.

Originally posted by biggmoneyme

Originally posted by Hawking

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
read the vedas, more interesting, more scientific, less fear mongering

I'm glad your 666th post was in this thread

had to happen sometime

and considering i make most of my post in the religion and metaphysic forum i don't think it's too surprising . but who knows, i might have been lucky enough to be born the antichrist. i wonder what super powers i have. maybe i'll end world hunger and poverty.

edit on 19-2-2012 by biggmoneyme because: (no reason given)

Just go the ego way totaly and become corrupt and parasitic; manipulative and you can become a true devil and more humans will listen to you because you can lie and tell them just what the want to hear and storke their egos. Kidding aside, I think you know to much already to go that road. If you go the other way and become as holy as you can then you will be called antichrist by many people who are the true antichrists. The bible is a perfect weapon for the devil. Whoever comes and do the right thing and tries to save everybody will be labeled antichrist by the people who do not understand they are the real antichrist. False rightousness and ego goes well together but true rightousness cannot exist with ego. Many chritians just wanna judge and not really connect with god/all/source.

reply to post by Hawking


Well I must commend you for reading the Bible yet you have no belief in it.

But I must say that what you read has to be 100% true or not at all as who is righteous enough to say this is true this is not.

Now when I state it is 100% true I do not mean that everything is literal as some things like corners of the earth does not mean flat. As we still to this day say such things.

But the life span of people was as long as stated because Noah took over a hundred years to build the ark.

Realize that if (the if is for you) God is all powerful then why would he not have designed man to live for ever yet sin brought death.

Do not put limits upon God when it comes to what he does or how the Bible was written. Also if you have a computer when ever you question a word look it up in Strong's Concordance and see what the original word meant, it is much more revealing when done that way.

God bless you and I hope the God will allow you to see the truth in his word as you read.

reply to post by Hawking


Glad to see your reading the Bible. I have read it through at least 15 or so times now an I find new "stuff" in that living Book each time I go through it.

If I may, I would like to make some suggestions for you.

1. TAKE NOTES on questions you come across or things God shows you (they will stand out almost like the text is talking directly to you even though the context has nothing to do with you, especially in the old testament)

2. Use ONLY a Authorized Version of the Holy Bible. It is called the King James Bible and it is the ONLY Authorized version of the Holy Bible.Think about it, if you were reading a biography about Bil Gates, would you want to read the Authorized biography, or the Unauthorized one? I can give you much deeper reasons than this, but this should show you the common sense reason.

3. Pray to the4 GOD of the Bible before you read it each times asking for wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. And for the saving knowledge of saving grace if you are willing to admit you are lost.

4. BELIEVE what you read instead of criticizing or explaining AWAY what you read. You can always question what you read, that IS UNDERSTANDABLE, BUT DON'T IGNORE OR omit the text just because it doesn't makes sense to you....or scares you. That is why new bible perversions were made....the Authorized version SCARED the scholars....

reply to post by Hawking

Make sure you have a Strong's Concordance and a Hebrew/English dictionary handy. You will find that the 66 books are compiled from many different sources, and if you have studied Ancient History, you will see many parallels with the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Sumerian Tablets. If you search for the origins of the New Testament, it traces back to a certain Roman family which was married into Ceasor's family, and if you search for history on the Godman Jesus, you will find none. And be careful who you tell you have read it, Christians will tell you you need the "Holy Spirit" to interpret it for you. I have been told, by Christians, that a normal reader cannot understand it at all. Just a heads up. I have read it, twice, if you wish to know anything about it, I am pretty well read on the subject matter. Here are some good websites to ponder:
Jesus Never Existed Website
The Epic of Gilgamesh
Exposing Christianity
God's Mistakes
Bible Absurdities
Bible Atrocities
A List of Biblical Contradictions
How Many Has God Killed?
Yahweh is the Leviathan (Dragon/Reptilian)

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by Hawking

 

Jesus Never Existed Website

_Ἰησοῦς ____
en.wikipedia.org...