another verse in the Gospel to show OSAS is a lie, a heresy from men

There are many verses in Scripture to show Once Saved Always
Saved is not from God. One verse is a new one for me so I thought I would share it.

And I never knew until today Rick Warren, his mega Saddleback Church
professes OSAS.


Here's the verse...

Romans 11:22
See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Originally posted by colbe
There are many verses in Scripture to show Once Saved Always
Saved is not from God. One verse is a new one for me so I thought I would share it.

And I never knew until today Rick Warren, his mega Saddleback Church
professes OSAS.


Here's the verse...

Romans 11:22
See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

So I guess that bit about Jesus dying for our sins is just a crock. I always thought so anyway.

Originally posted by windword

So I guess that bit about Jesus dying for our sins is just a crock. I always thought so anyway.

He didn't die for us so we could just do whatever the hell we want...

Originally posted by graphuto

Originally posted by windword

So I guess that bit about Jesus dying for our sins is just a crock. I always thought so anyway.

He didn't die for us so we could just do whatever the hell we want...

Really? Why did he die then? Did he take away our free will too when he left? Good thing God created Paul, so he could tie up the loose ends that Jesus left behind.

reply to post by colbe


Ya but what does Paul know...

Basically, who cares what Paul said? THIS is what Jesus said:

Verse 17) 'Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil.
(Verse 18) For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
(Verse 19) Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 5:17-19 - NKJV).

reply to post by graphuto


So, the law is fulfilled! Great news!

I don't really understand how if God has a divine plan and Jesus died on the cross then, surely God knew he would do that and therefore why would it be at that point in time when we could now be closer to God because Jesus had died for us?

Also if God sent him down for this purpose anyway then how is it really a sacrifice?

One final question, at what point did Jesus become God?

This is the basis for 'backsliding' and many denominations believe that salvation is not permanent. If you're of Christian faith it just makes sense, those that would backslide were dishonest with Christ in the first place so it seems to fit.

reply to post by colbe


Someone has an axe to grind against baptists.

Well, kissing the Pope's ring and praying to giant bronze idols doesn't give you 90 days of absolution to sin all you want either so there. You can pray to Ishtar, the Queen of Heaven all you like, she has no power.

reply to post by eyesdown

I don't really understand how if God has a divine plan and Jesus died on the cross then, surely God knew he would do that and therefore why would it be at that point in time when we could now be closer to God because Jesus had died for us?

It wasn't at that point when he died... its when he returned that his disciples realized the spirit does not die...

Realization of your spirit is what brings you closer to God, but in reality you were never seperated from God in the first place... that is an illusion.

Also if God sent him down for this purpose anyway then how is it really a sacrifice?

IF God knew he would be tortured? Yes i would say so... Proof of Gods love for all of his children...

One final question, at what point did Jesus become God?

He didn't...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by eyesdown

 

I don't really understand how if God has a divine plan and Jesus died on the cross then, surely God knew he would do that and therefore why would it be at that point in time when we could now be closer to God because Jesus had died for us?

It wasn't at that point when he died... its when he returned that his disciples realized the spirit does not die...

Realization of your spirit is what brings you closer to God, but in reality you were never separated from God in the first place... that is an illusion.

Also if God sent him down for this purpose anyway then how is it really a sacrifice?

IF God knew he would be tortured? Yes I would say so... Proof of Gods love for all of his children...

One final question, at what point did Jesus become God?

He didn't...

Appreciate your response, but I don't know if I really made my point clear. I suppose that if Jesus' purpose was to fulfil that role and God always knew he would then at what point did Jesus do something I suppose "selfless" is the only word I can use. Because I understand what he did was selfless but God knew he was going to do this already.

Ok I still don't think I have quite put into words what I mean

Also Akragon I think I asked you in another post whether you believed Jesus was resurrected, I see that you do (as you mention him in spirit) but you do not believe he is God how so ?

Well, essentially he knows what EVERYONE is going to do. Does that mean that you can't commit selfless acts?

Jesus was still a man...

reply to post by graphuto


But he wasn't any ordinary man, I thought he was the word made flesh? God in human form?

Originally posted by graphuto
Well, essentially he knows what EVERYONE is going to do. Does that mean that you can't commit selfless acts?

Jesus was still a man...

Sorry, but I can't believe in this philosophy. Present time and free will do exist. There isn't a mind that knows where free will lead. There are statistics and physics that predict certainties, but free will committed in present time is unpredictable within its predictability.

If I choose to drop a ball from the top of a building, it will fall. But I may throw the ball in any direction, no one knows how I will, or if I will throw the ball. Not even God. I can surprise God!

reply to post by eyesdown

Appreciate your response, but I don't know if I really made my point clear. I suppose that if Jesus' purpose was to fulfil that role and God always knew he would then at what point did Jesus do something I suppose "selfless" is the only word I can use. Because I understand what he did was selfless but God knew he was going to do this already.

He did not want to die... he only accepted that it must happen... and he submitted to Gods will..

That is selfless...

Also Akragon I think I asked you in another post whether you believed Jesus was resurrected, I see that you do (as you mention him in spirit) but you do not believe he is God how so ?

He would have told his followers he was God. He did not... He said he was "the son of God"... One with God if you will... but not THE ONE God... only a part of God.

Jesus always refered to one that was Greater then He... His Father... the ONE true God...

IF you call Jesus God you also call him a liar by omition... Meaning he just happen to leave that part out of his ministry... He would have said I AM GOD... He did not... He said "before abraham was I AM" meaning God existed before Abraham... which Jesus is a part of...

Though if the spirit does not die... we ALL also existed before Abraham...



EDIT: 5000th post!!

Originally posted by mretgis
This is the basis for 'backsliding' and many denominations believe that salvation is not permanent. If you're of Christian faith it just makes sense, those that would backslide were dishonest with Christ in the first place so it seems to fit.

I just hope you don't believe OSAS mretgis.

I get it, where Rick got the name for his church.
"backsliding" kinda like "saddleback

They're believing a lie.

The old you weren't really "saved" to start. If you would look at
the words of the first Christians, some of them taught by the Apostles.

Instead of going with a man's new teaching who came along in the
16th century. I'll post some the many verses which show Justification is
not a one time event.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by graphuto
Well, essentially he knows what EVERYONE is going to do. Does that mean that you can't commit selfless acts?

Jesus was still a man...

Sorry, but I can't believe in this philosophy. Present time and free will do exist. There isn't a mind that knows where free will lead. There are statistics and physics that predict certainties, but free will committed in present time is unpredictable within its predictability.

If I choose to drop a ball from the top of a building, it will fall. But I may throw the ball in any direction, no one knows how I will, or if I will throw the ball. Not even God. I can surprise God!

Hmm... The God that I'm familiar with is omniscient and omnipresent...

Originally posted by graphuto

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by graphuto
Well, essentially he knows what EVERYONE is going to do. Does that mean that you can't commit selfless acts?

Jesus was still a man...

Sorry, but I can't believe in this philosophy. Present time and free will do exist. There isn't a mind that knows where free will lead. There are statistics and physics that predict certainties, but free will committed in present time is unpredictable within its predictability.

If I choose to drop a ball from the top of a building, it will fall. But I may throw the ball in any direction, no one knows how I will, or if I will throw the ball. Not even God. I can surprise God!

Hmm... The God that I'm familiar with is omniscient and omnipresent...

Well, If your god is the god of the Old Testament, he has worldly emotions. He was surprised by Adam and Eve's sin and underestimated the serpent.

He was delighted by David's dancing and Solomon's singing. He was impressed by Job and took pity on Lot. He was angered and jealous of the Israelites loyalty to "false" gods.

He said "let us make man in our image." God clearly enjoys the surprises of free will and present time.

The Gospel says you have to "persevere" to the end, one verse of many that doesn't fit OSAS. The Catholic reply is "I have been saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved."

Past Event: I have been saved

Romans 8:24 - for in hope you were saved
Ephesians 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2 Timothy 1:9 - he saved us, called us, according too his grace
Titus 3:5 - he saved us through the bath of rebirth, renewed by the Holy Spirit

Present Event: I am being saved

Philippians 2:12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
1 Peter 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

Future Event: I hope to be saved

Matthew 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
Matthew 24:13 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
Mark 8:3-5 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
Acts 15:11 - we will be saved through the grace of Jesus
Romans 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
Romans 13:11 - salvation is nearer now, then first believed
1 Corinthians 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire
1 Corinthians 5:5 - deliver the evil man's natural life to Satan so his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord
Hebrews 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to bring salvation