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another verse in the Gospel to show OSAS is a lie, a heresy from men

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posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by graphuto

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by graphuto
Well, essentially he knows what EVERYONE is going to do. Does that mean that you can't commit selfless acts?

Jesus was still a man...


Sorry, but I can't believe in this philosophy. Present time and free will do exist. There isn't a mind that knows where free will lead. There are statistics and physics that predict certainties, but free will committed in present time is unpredictable within its predictability.

If I choose to drop a ball from the top of a building, it will fall. But I may throw the ball in any direction, no one knows how I will, or if I will throw the ball. Not even God. I can surprise God!


Hmm... The God that I'm familiar with is omniscient and omnipresent...


Well, If your god is the god of the Old Testament, he has worldly emotions. He was surprised by Adam and Eve's sin and underestimated the serpent.

He was delighted by David's dancing and Solomon's singing. He was impressed by Job and took pity on Lot. He was angered and jealous of the Israelites loyalty to "false" gods.

He said "let us make man in our image." God clearly enjoys the surprises of free will and present time.


Hi, not to argue, I am wondering why you use the word "surprised" and
"surprises?"

God's not surprised by any action of His children, He already knew, He knows all but love means nothing if it isn't given freely. He gave humanity the gift of "free will." Some will choose for God and some will not, sadly.

Adam is responsible for "original sin." I learned recently, this was such a grave sin "original sin" because with his preternatural gifts Adam saw the consequences of "original sin" and still freely chose to sin.

He was very repentant though and confessed the "original sin" to God. God's mercy, Adam and Eve are in Heaven.

We see in the Gospel, Judas did not repent, Peter sinned and he repented. Everyone for the life of your soul, repent and confess your sins to God.




posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by colbe
There are many verses in Scripture to show Once Saved Always
Saved is not from God. One verse is a new one for me so I thought I would share it.

And I never knew until today Rick Warren, his mega Saddleback Church
professes OSAS.


Here's the verse...

Romans 11:22
See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Another verse to go along with that one is this:

John 2 22

After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. 23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

The significance of this is clear. A person must recognize that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. We know this. The second part is to come to the cross and bear the cup. We know this from Genesis 40 and the baker and the cup bearer. The two thieves on the cross represent the baker and the cup bearer. The baker did not repent. The cup bearer carried the cup. There is one more important element.

As important as it is for a Christian to know Jesus, it is equally important to recognize that He knows us better than we know ourselves. "24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them..." Jesus comes with salvation in Hebrews 9:27-28. We are all waiting for him to entrust Himself to us.

Is this the end of someone if they do not repent and love God? Possibly, but the very next chapter in John explains that a person must be born again. I believe this to be what baptism represents. It is a picture of our immersion into the water of reality. John the Baptist was Elijah. If you reference 1 Kings 17, John was pictured as controlling the water by his word. When he visited the widow woman, he took her son from her bosom, went UP stairs, revived the son's soul, then went back DOWN stairs with the child to the mother. For me, we now know Elijah's purpose. He is in charge of baptism of the water.

Who did John the Baptist (Elijah) refuse baptism?

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Why? They must be baptized by fire (Extreme Trial) instead for their sins. The next verses tell this.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

While the faithful escape this trial, the experts in the law stay. Those who put themselves first in this life will be last. Those who put themselves last are first. Consult the parable of the workers in the vineyard. Knowing that we are born again into the world, God is now seen as long-suffering. Divine Justice is now understood by the symbols. Some will never learn and will not escape the fire. Why?

"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." (Luke 11:52)

It is important to be on the right side of truth. The heart is the important key to this that is suppressed. If the heart gives from love and honors God by faith, then we are saved.

John 18

36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

38 “What is truth?” retorted Pilate.




edit on 17-2-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 





Hi, not to argue, I am wondering why you use the word "surprised" and
"surprises?"

God's not surprised by any action of His children, He already knew, He knows all but love means nothing if it isn't given freely. He gave humanity the gift of "free will." Some will choose for God and some will not, sadly.

Adam is responsible for "original sin." I learned recently, this was such a grave sin "original sin" because with his preternatural gifts Adam saw the consequences of "original sin" and still freely chose to sin.

He was very repentant though and confessed the "original sin" to God. God's mercy, Adam and Eve are in Heaven.

We see in the Gospel, Judas did not repent, Peter sinned and he repented. Everyone for the life of your soul, repent and confess your sins to God.


There's more to free will than believing in god or not. All of life isn't about sin and sinning.

I can't believe in a god that knowingly set up and tricked mankind for a fall. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of "good and evil" until they ate of the tree of "good and evil."

Personally, I can't believe that the god of the old testament is the one and only god. But I suspect that there is an hierarchy of spiritual representatives set to watch over earth. That being said, if this Jehovah guy created mankind for his pleasure then I suspect that he enjoys the beauty of Chopin's works and the glory of Michealangelo and had never seen nor heard their works before they were created.

If we are created in his image, and you suggest that we should talk to god, then he must be able to exist in present time, in order for a conversation to occur. God may know the future like I know that I will go to work tomorrow, but I don't know what surprises may come up at work. Neither does god know what we will do with the gifts we are given.

If god can be sad, angry, jealous and delighted then he can be surprised. Free will is the ability to formulate a thought and carry it through in action Free will is not about believing something. Creation itself is a result of free will. With free will there is mystery. What will I do? Free will is impressive and God's admiration of it is what got Lucifer jealous.

Now go and accept your salvation and create something wonderful.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe
 





Hi, not to argue, I am wondering why you use the word "surprised" and
"surprises?"

God's not surprised by any action of His children, He already knew, He knows all but love means nothing if it isn't given freely. He gave humanity the gift of "free will." Some will choose for God and some will not, sadly.

Adam is responsible for "original sin." I learned recently, this was such a grave sin "original sin" because with his preternatural gifts Adam saw the consequences of "original sin" and still freely chose to sin.

He was very repentant though and confessed the "original sin" to God. God's mercy, Adam and Eve are in Heaven.

We see in the Gospel, Judas did not repent, Peter sinned and he repented. Everyone for the life of your soul, repent and confess your sins to God.


There's more to free will than believing in god or not. All of life isn't about sin and sinning.

I can't believe in a god that knowingly set up and tricked mankind for a fall. Adam and Eve had no knowledge of "good and evil" until they ate of the tree of "good and evil."

Personally, I can't believe that the god of the old testament is the one and only god. But I suspect that there is an hierarchy of spiritual representatives set to watch over earth. That being said, if this Jehovah guy created mankind for his pleasure then I suspect that he enjoys the beauty of Chopin's works and the glory of Michealangelo and had never seen nor heard their works before they were created.

If we are created in his image, and you suggest that we should talk to god, then he must be able to exist in present time, in order for a conversation to occur. God may know the future like I know that I will go to work tomorrow, but I don't know what surprises may come up at work. Neither does god know what we will do with the gifts we are given.

If god can be sad, angry, jealous and delighted then he can be surprised. Free will is the ability to formulate a thought and carry it through in action Free will is not about believing something. Creation itself is a result of free will. With free will there is mystery. What will I do? Free will is impressive and God's admiration of it is what got Lucifer jealous.

Now go and accept your salvation and create something wonderful.


windword,

You're saying the same thing. You're telling everyone God doesn't
know what we are going to do. Yes He does! He sees all, He knows
all of time and all of our actions. Past, present and the future.

We are the created, His creation, we are not divine. You don't know
the future but God does.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


Nope. I don't believe that.

Experience is only done in present time. I have free will and wield it only in present time. I can make plans, but I have to carry them through. God can't make me do anything and doesn't experience my actions until they occur.

If god can delight in his creation it has to be new and surprising for that to take place. The future has not yet happened. God may have a plan in place, but it isn't finished yet, he's till building houses.

We are divine. What we create is divine. We are all gods. The future is ours and has not been pre-written.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:20 PM
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I should say one thing, the Church has never said where Judas' soul is right now, God is the judge.

Be wise, do not die with unrepentant mortal sin on your soul.

Here's a verse in the Gospel about mortal and venial sin. There are two
kinds of sin. There is a heresy that states all sins are equal. Not true.

1 John 5:16-17
He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:28 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe
 


Nope. I don't believe that.

Experience is only done in present time. I have free will and wield it only in present time. I can make plans, but I have to carry them through. God can't make me do anything and doesn't experience my actions until they occur.

If god can delight in his creation it has to be new and surprising for that to take place. The future has not yet happened. God may have a plan in place, but it isn't finished yet, he's till building houses.

We are divine. What we create is divine. We are all gods. The future is ours and has not been pre-written.


You're right about "free will" but so wrong thinking God doesn't know
ahead of time everything we are to do. We don't know exactly what we are going to do next or tomorrow, God does.

Your last sentence is pure New Age, such nonsense. You will understand when God shows you in the Great Warning.

Personal belief, mine too, is worthless friend. God has revealed who he is...



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by graphuto
Well, essentially he knows what EVERYONE is going to do. Does that mean that you can't commit selfless acts?

Jesus was still a man...


Sorry, but I can't believe in this philosophy. Present time and free will do exist. There isn't a mind that knows where free will lead. There are statistics and physics that predict certainties, but free will committed in present time is unpredictable within its predictability.

If I choose to drop a ball from the top of a building, it will fall. But I may throw the ball in any direction, no one knows how I will, or if I will throw the ball. Not even God. I can surprise God!


It is your free will that you are supposed to nail to the cross so that you can follow Christ and do the will of the father.



Luke 24:47 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Do you hear what it says, you must repent for the forgiveness of sins. This is the message the risen Christ said in his own words. Repent means turn from sin. You are not OSAS, you are given the command to stop sinning. It is only because we are not perfect that Peter says if you do sin that you should come back to repentance. This is something that should be rare if at all.

You can’t simply say I am saved and then go around as an unchanged sinner. What good is the sacrifice if not to bring about a change in ones heart?

This is actually the entire message in the bible. Repent for forgiveness of sins. In the Old Testament when the Jews followed the commands of God they lived abundant free lives, when they disobeyed they lived in poverty and oppression. When they turned away from sin and back to God they were forgiven. Do you see they always had to repent to come back into favor with God?
edit on 17-2-2012 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


The existence free will proves that the future has not been written, and negates the idea of predestiny. God doesn't know what our free will will produce. If you believe that god knew that Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit then you believe in a wicked and terrible god, that deserves no respect.

If predestiny is true, and god is all knowing of the future, then there is no such thing as free will. Being threatened with hell and judgment won't change a thing then. So, why bother?



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe
 


The existence free will proves that the future has not been written, and negates the idea of predestiny. God doesn't know what our free will will produce. If you believe that god knew that Adam and Eve would eat of the forbidden fruit then you believe in a wicked and terrible god, that deserves no respect.

If predestiny is true, and god is all knowing of the future, then there is no such thing as free will. Being threatened with hell and judgment won't change a thing then. So, why bother?



Why does a God who predestined that we learn the wisdom of God so that we might return to him as friends instead of mindless worshiping zombies sound wicked.

It is the one who uses his free will to be wicked that is wicked not the one who gave us free will knowing that we would disobey.

Why does God have to be bound by time? Because you are? Does this not make the creator a little small?

If you have 2 paths to take and one sign points to God and love and the other to sin, what is down each path. Even if God knows the outcome down each path that does not take away your will to choose. If you choose God’s path than you know for certain that down that path is God’s will. If you choose your own path, who’s will have you chosen.

I see life as a choose your own adventure book. The book is already written with God knowing every possible outcome but you did have free will to choose the path you would take. And not all paths lead to the same ending.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 


If Jesus came to earth, sent by god, to die for our sins, then its a done deal. I shouldn't have to do anything to earn my salvation. It's free, whether I believe in him or god or not.

No one is perfect, but the idea that I have to tell god about my imperfections over and over, which he already knows about, because he knows everything, then Jesus' death is useless.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by sacgamer25
 





Why does a God who predestined that we learn the wisdom of God so that we might return to him as friends instead of mindless worshiping zombies sound wicked.


What makes you think that we left god, so that we might return? That doesn't make sense.



It is the one who uses his free will to be wicked that is wicked not the one who gave us free will knowing that we would disobey.


It's unacceptable that a loving god would place his innocent children in a position where they could hurt themselves beyond repair. If the wages of sin is death, and we're all going to die, then what good was Jesus' death?



Why does God have to be bound by time? Because you are? Does this not make the creator a little small?


Because of free will. If god already knows then I don't have free will. If god is in communion with me, then god doesn't know what I'll do next.



If you have 2 paths to take and one sign points to God and love and the other to sin, what is down each path. Even if God knows the outcome down each path that does not take away your will to choose. If you choose God’s path than you know for certain that down that path is God’s will. If you choose your own path, who’s will have you chosen.


So free will is bad? If I choose my path, that's bad? I think god is at the end of all paths.



I see life as a choose your own adventure book. The book is already written with God knowing every possible outcome but you did have free will to choose the path you would take. And not all paths lead to the same ending.


Well, maybe. But god doesn't know which path I will take in the book that he wrote.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by sacgamer25
 


If Jesus came to earth, sent by god, to die for our sins, then its a done deal. I shouldn't have to do anything to earn my salvation. It's free, whether I believe in him or god or not.

No one is perfect, but the idea that I have to tell god about my imperfections over and over, which he already knows about, because he knows everything, then Jesus' death is useless.


Jesus died for our sins, He redeemed us. Redemption is not Justification. Two different words.

If you said "he knows everything", a couple of posts ago you kept using the word "surprise" in regards to
God. No offense, you are changing your story.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


I have never declared that god knows everything. I may have supposed in a hypothetical question, That he must be a wicked and terrible god to knowingly allow, set up, trick humanity into its fall.

My god is with me in present time and experiences the awe of creation through my eyes.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by colbe
 


I have never declared that god knows everything. I may have supposed in a hypothetical question, That he must be a wicked and terrible god to knowingly allow, set up, trick humanity into its fall.

My god is with me in present time and experiences the awe of creation through my eyes.


windword,

I know you never said it. I am trying to help you along with others here to see God does "know everything."
He is not "surprised" as you say by anything.

Do not believe all that New Age BX. We are the created. God is divine.

Why do you imagine all the prophesies from the Old Covenant came to be? God knows the beginning
and the end.


love,

colbe



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


That is your opinion and you have not stated why you believe this or commented on the question of free will negating all knowing. This thread is discussing the need for constant repentance. I disagree with that, based on the idea of free will being a gift to humanity.

The application of free will was so admired by god that Lucifer got jealous. I think that god's world is a little out of control for someone who knows everything.



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by colbe
There are many verses in Scripture to show Once Saved Always
Saved is not from God. One verse is a new one for me so I thought I would share it.

And I never knew until today Rick Warren, his mega Saddleback Church
professes OSAS.


Here's the verse...

Romans 11:22
See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


You do realize the same guy who wrote Romans chapter 8 also wrote Romans chapter 11 correct?



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by graphuto

Originally posted by windword

So I guess that bit about Jesus dying for our sins is just a crock. I always thought so anyway.


He didn't die for us so we could just do whatever the hell we want...


Well of course not, but that's not what he said, you missed it. Here it is from another angle:


How many of your sins were yet future when Christ hung on the cross?



edit on 17-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:21 PM
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Anyone ever played that awesome 2010 videogame "Dante's Inferno"?

This thread reminds me of a flashback scene during the story.




posted on Feb, 17 2012 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by graphuto

Originally posted by windword

So I guess that bit about Jesus dying for our sins is just a crock. I always thought so anyway.


He didn't die for us so we could just do whatever the hell we want...


Really? Why did he die then? Did he take away our free will too when he left? Good thing God created Paul, so he could tie up the loose ends that Jesus left behind.


I think they believe that we have to tie up our own loose ends that Jesus couldn't complete.



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