another verse in the Gospel to show OSAS is a lie, a heresy from men

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by colbe
There are many verses in Scripture to show Once Saved Always
Saved is not from God. One verse is a new one for me so I thought I would share it.

And I never knew until today Rick Warren, his mega Saddleback Church
professes OSAS.


Here's the verse...

Romans 11:22
See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You do realize the same guy who wrote Romans chapter 8 also wrote Romans chapter 11 correct?

NOTurTypical,

I love Saint Paul. Did you see all the verses on the first page to show
OSAS is a crock. It's not true.

Originally posted by colbe
The Gospel says you have to "persevere" to the end, one verse of many that doesn't fit OSAS. The Catholic reply is "I have been saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved."

Past Event: I have been saved

Romans 8:24 - for in hope you were saved
Ephesians 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2 Timothy 1:9 - he saved us, called us, according too his grace
Titus 3:5 - he saved us through the bath of rebirth, renewed by the Holy Spirit

Present Event: I am being saved

Philippians 2:12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
1 Peter 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

Future Event: I hope to be saved

Matthew 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
Matthew 24:13 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
Mark 8:3-5 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
Acts 15:11 - we will be saved through the grace of Jesus
Romans 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
Romans 13:11 - salvation is nearer now, then first believed
1 Corinthians 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire
1 Corinthians 5:5 - deliver the evil man's natural life to Satan so his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord
Hebrews 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to bring salvation

reply to post by colbe


So, yeah, besides you taking nearly every verse out of context, what was that about Romans 8? Are you aware of what that very same Paul said 3 chapters prior?

reply to post by colbe

The Catholic reply is "I have been saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved."

Why not..

Okay, I'm a Protestant and I can say the exact same thing. BTW, you left out the other half. The 3 "P"s of Salvation are:

Past Tense: "Justification" - Positional, in Christ, baptized by the Holy Spirit into one body. We have "have been saved" from the Penalty for sin, Hell. By Christ's completed work at Calvary. What we never earned by works we cannot lose by works.

Jesus said to all who call on Him He'll "never" cast out. To claim otherwise is to make this statement not true.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Present Tense: "Sanctification" - A continual work by the Holy Spirit to conform the believer into the image of Christ. We "are being saved" from the Power of sin over our lives, greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world, the Holy Spirit.

Check out the first chapter of 1 Corinthians, look who it's addressed to. And remember these Christians were having sex with one another, getting drunk on communion wine, and suing each other. And in chapter 6 Paul says in past perfect tense in the Greek that they have already been "justified" and were being washed and sanctified by the Spirit.

Future Tense: "Glorification" - Resurrected from the dead with an incorruptible body. When we "will be saved" from the Presence of sin in our new bodies, glorified ones. But based on what I understand of Physics I merely believe that merely means multi-dimensional.

That's the complete "3 P's of salvation" according to systematic theology, not just Catholic.

reply to post by colbe

saddleback

Saddleback mountain, in Orange County, California. (google that)
I used to drive up the scary dirt road to the top of it.
Just one of those things where everything gets named after the big mountain nearby.
There is nothing more to it than that.

reply to post by colbe

Ephesians 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2 Timothy 1:9 - he saved us, called us, according too his grace
Titus 3:5 - he saved us through the bath of rebirth, renewed by the Holy Spirit

Notice how these three out of four under Saved-past tense, are from the forged, meaning not really by Paul, books.
The one from an authentic Paul book, Romans 8:24 says,

For in hope we were saved . . .

This is one type of "salvation by faith" where you understand it as meaning, by faith we are saved, like through the vision of faith, by your believing, you see yourself already in heaven though you are not there yet.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by colbe

 

Ephesians 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2 Timothy 1:9 - he saved us, called us, according too his grace
Titus 3:5 - he saved us through the bath of rebirth, renewed by the Holy Spirit

Notice how these three out of four under Saved-past tense, are from the forged, meaning not really by Paul, books.
The one from an authentic Paul book, Romans 8:24 says,

For in hope we were saved . . .

This is one type of "salvation by faith" where you understand it as meaning, by faith we are saved, like through the vision of faith, by your believing, you see yourself already in heaven though you are not there yet.

edit on 18-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

jim,

I thought all Christians agreed Scripture is inerrant? Who would
believe some of God's written Word is true and not all of it? The reason...

Some Christians are anti-Paul because they don't like what he states
in the Gospel. One example 1Corinthians, chapter 11.

God should be arrested for animal cruelty/neglect

reply to post by colbe

I thought all Christians agreed Scripture is inerrant?

Decently informed "christians" don't...

reply to post by colbe

I thought all Christians agreed Scripture is inerrant? Who would
believe some of God's written Word is true and not all of it? The reason...

This idea of inerrancy was a strong motivation for people back in the second century A.D. to get their own writings into scripture and the best way to do that was to write your beliefs as a letter and claim they had this letter sitting in their church for decades and would they please include it in the New Testament canon.
God did not somehow approve of this forgery and guide the keepers of the canon to accept it even though God fully understood it was a forgery. It was just plain human error and a lack of understanding of some basic science for dating documents and identifying the authors, which we have now. Plus there was a Paul letter fever when they were getting ready to close the canon and a call went out to all the churches that they would be paid a high premium for any Paul letters they may have lying about (another incentive to create forgeries, hard cash).

reply to post by Akragon

Decently informed "christians" don't...

There is a Kindle app you can download to read kindle books on your PC, so you can buy books on Amazon and read them right away if you want. A nice feature with Kindle books is you can do indexing by doing underlining and placing notes, and I did that pretty extensively with Bart Ehrman's book, Forged, where I can easily refer to what he has on every book in the New Testament.
The whole concept behind something like a canon is that the Apostles were especially blessed by the risen Christ who breathed on them and gave them the miraculous power necessary to create things like the church, so whatever they wrote was inspired above what anyone else in the world could possibly write. That does not hold true with books that only had an Apostle's name attached to it as a way of lending an air of authority to it.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by colbe

 

I thought all Christians agreed Scripture is inerrant?

Decently informed "christians" don't...

Well, that's not true whatsoever. Why would you claim that?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by colbe

 

I thought all Christians agreed Scripture is inerrant?

Decently informed "christians" don't...

Well, that's not true whatsoever. Why would you claim that?

Simply because there are errors all throughout the book...

Factual, geological, and logical errors... as well as contradictions...

Anyone who believes there are NO errors within the bible is only fooling themselves

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by colbe

 

I thought all Christians agreed Scripture is inerrant?

Decently informed "christians" don't...

Well, that's not true whatsoever. Why would you claim that?

Simply because there are errors all throughout the book...

I've never seen one without a logical explanation, or several in many cases you can take your pick from. I'd say based on past experience 90% of them fail basic hermeneutic rules of interpreting scripture. The other 9.9 % of the time people fail to consider context. I'm aware the Bible versions originating from the Alexandrian manuscripts and Westcott and Hort's Greek text have quote a few errors.

That's translation and in the case of the Alexandrian manuscripts oftentimes expurgation of verses of the text.

Factual, geological, and logical errors...

And a heptadic structure no single human could conjure up, let alone over 40 of them who most of the time never met the other authors. Writing sometimes thousands of years between each other. I've never heard anything that hasn't ahd a competent, rational explanation, and I've heard a lot man.

as well as contradictions...

They are only apparent contradictions. The Rabbis called them "Remez"'s, it was a hint to something deeper hidden in the text or somewhere else in scripture.

Anyone who believes there are NO errors within the bible is only fooling themselves

There are errors. But historians know why in most cases of copyist error, translation error, sometimes just removing tons of verses you don't like, things like that. Scholars have almost 6,000 copies of different manuscripts to compare, they can pretty much narrow down exactly what the originals said by sheer volume of samples.

Here akragon bro;

Bookmark this link for the next time you have a question.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Here akragon bro;

Bookmark this link for the next time you have a question.

edit on 19-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

no need my friend...

Theres no contradictions in His lessons...

The rest doesn't matter

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Someone has an axe to grind against baptists.

Says the baptist missionary who got his education reading Jack Chick tracts, and who spreads lies and errors about what the Catholic Church believes. :shk:

Once saved always saved = a load of bunk.

Originally posted by eyesdown
at what point did Jesus become God?

See the opening of the gospel of St. John .... 'in the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God" ... he's talking about Jesus. Jesus always was, and always will be ... GOD.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Here akragon bro;

Bookmark this link for the next time you have a question.

no need my friend...

Theres no contradictions in His lessons...

The rest doesn't matter

We certainly agree there but, the rest testifies of Him as well. Didn't you read the story about His post-resurrection appearance to two men on the "Road to Emmaus" narrative? How He took them trough Moses and the Prophets showing the men how everything was about Him?

The entire book is about Jesus homie.

(Oh and btw, I meant specifically the Christians canonical scriptures. Jesus contradicts Himself quite often in the Gnostic ones.) Remember, Genesis when God prophesied about the "Seed of the woman"? (Jesus) Well, He also said there would also be a "seed of the serpent". (the coming fake jesus)

The real Jesus says "Look to me, it's finished!" The Gnostic jesus says "Look inside yourself, you can do it!" The real Jesus was a man, born of a virgin, Mary. The Gnostic jesus was never really material, he only appeared to be here and didn't leave footprints in the sand.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Remember, Genesis when God prophesied about the "Seed of the woman"? (Jesus) Well, He also said there would also be a "seed of the serpent". (the coming fake jesus)

The Greek Old Testament says the children of Eve will look at the serpent's head while the serpent looks at their heels.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Here akragon bro;

Bookmark this link for the next time you have a question.

no need my friend...

Theres no contradictions in His lessons...

The rest doesn't matter

We certainly agree there but, the rest testifies of Him as well. Didn't you read the story about His post-resurrection appearance to two men on the "Road to Emmaus" narrative? How He took them trough Moses and the Prophets showing the men how everything was about Him?

The entire book is about Jesus homie.

(Oh and btw, I meant specifically the Christians canonical scriptures. Jesus contradicts Himself quite often in the Gnostic ones.) Remember, Genesis when God prophesied about the "Seed of the woman"? (Jesus) Well, He also said there would also be a "seed of the serpent". (the coming fake jesus)

The real Jesus says "Look to me, it's finished!" The Gnostic jesus says "Look inside yourself, you can do it!" The real Jesus was a man, born of a virgin, Mary. The Gnostic jesus was never really material, he only appeared to be here and didn't leave footprints in the sand.

edit on 19-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

I am no more Gnostic then i am Christian though... you seem to believe i adhear to gnostic scripture more so then i do Christian... this isn't actually the case. I enjoy the gnostics because they speak more of spiritual matters then the christian ones do... In either case both gnostic and christian pay attention to the wrong aspect of scripture... It doesn't matter who he was, what matters is what he said... and both views of Jesus line up quite well...

Both said God is within... Christians say rely on christ, or even believe in Him... yet many don't even understand what that means... Its much more then just saying "i believe in him" the words mean nothing...

Gnostic Jesus said everything you need is within... These views don't contradict each other...

I haven't actually studied the gnostic scripture looking for contradictions... simply because they do not claim to be without error... Christians on the other hand do claim their book is without error... which is why i felt the need to prove that wrong... which is quite easy to do with a little research... as opposed to blindly accepting infallibility.

Let me ask you this... You believe the words of a man that did not meet Jesus, did not preach what Jesus taught, and contradicted his lessons in many cases. Where as gnostic scripture "might" be words of Jesus passed down through many generations and eventually written down. Technically the exact same thing as the books from the bible, only written much later...

How do you believe the words of a man that did not teach what Jesus taught, yet dismiss the gnostic scripture which have many of the original lessons from him?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by colbe

 

I thought all Christians agreed Scripture is inerrant? Who would
believe some of God's written Word is true and not all of it? The reason...

This idea of inerrancy was a strong motivation for people back in the second century A.D. to get their own writings into scripture and the best way to do that was to write your beliefs as a letter and claim they had this letter sitting in their church for decades and would they please include it in the New Testament canon.
God did not somehow approve of this forgery and guide the keepers of the canon to accept it even though God fully understood it was a forgery. It was just plain human error and a lack of understanding of some basic science for dating documents and identifying the authors, which we have now. Plus there was a Paul letter fever when they were getting ready to close the canon and a call went out to all the churches that they would be paid a high premium for any Paul letters they may have lying about (another incentive to create forgeries, hard cash).

edit on 18-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

jim,

You're saying above, the Bible is wrong in certain books, ie; Paul? By what authority do you speak?

1Timothy 3:15 states the Church not Martin Luther's "Bible Alone" is
our authority.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. The Bible belongs to
the Church which was established by Christ.