There is no such thing as "random"?

With due respect, I can't help but feel you're missing the point of what I've been saying.

Originally posted by artistpoet
We can pick a wildflower or leave it in the meadow.
We can help an old person carry their heavy shopping or not

What determines the choice you make? The ultimate action or inaction is exactly what was "destined" to happen. You may ponder it for a moment, but even that pondering is part of the equation.

Originally posted by artistpoet
We continually have choice yet all outcomes are known - not always by us but by Higher Intelligence

You might be on to something here. After that you kind of lost me. =)

My premise was VERY similar to Laplace's Demon, but I took it further to explore its implications on our everyday lives.

I'm not concerned with "free will" in the way that your're clinging to. In my line of thinking, your "free will" and "intelligence" are merely additional functions of what has come and factors of what will become. At their root, they are products of materials and energies interacting with each other according to a known and predictable set of laws.

Randomness is order we don't understand yet. Like magic is to science. I think it's more a matter of perspective than a question of whether or not it exists.

Originally posted by circlemaker
Randomness is order we don't understand yet. Like magic is to science. I think it's more a matter of perspective than a question of whether or not it exists.

You get it.

reply to post by an0maly33


Sorry my answers are confusing perhaps I am confused

But I would stand by the sentance you quoted
"We continually have choice yet all outcomes are known - not always by us but by Higher Intelligence"
Higher Intelligence or source is something many can not accept but for me it is a basic foundation.
Keep digging you are certainly raising interesting points

Originally posted by artistpoet
reply to post by an0maly33

 

Sorry my answers are confusing perhaps I am confused

But I would stand by the sentance you quoted
"We continually have choice yet all outcomes are known - not always by us but by Higher Intelligence"
Higher Intelligence or source is something many can not accept but for me it is a basic foundation.
Keep digging you are certainly raising interesting points

On that I'll say this - I don't know. I'm ok with that. At the risk of dabbling into the realm of religion and faith, I'll just say that I believe that there is something "more" to all of this. I don't think any religion has the answer. I think it's something each of us has to explore on our own - hence my starting this thread, actually. =) I have seen, heard, and experience things first hand that secure my belief in "more". I also have accounts form others that reinforce that.

If you define intelligence as neurons firing and electrochemical processes in the brain, it would certainly be subject to the original premise of predetermined and calculable behavior. However, If you're meaning that our consciousness is more widely scoped than that - something bigger than our currently perceived reality, then I grant you it may be exempt from the premise. That's just as worthy an exploration, really.

The concept of randomness is only really relevant in the context of predictability, which inherently requires a conscious sampling of a system at a particular point in time. Chaos theory, and the study of dynamical systems, has shown us that complex systems are extremely sensitive to initial conditions, so small changes to a system, make their progression completely unpredictable. I am uncertain that uncertainty (randomness) is not a intrinsic factor in the construct of reality, but i know that from my observation point the word random has meaning. Absolute determinism can only be a concept for religion i would think.

Originally posted by an0maly33

Originally posted by circlemaker
Randomness is order we don't understand yet. Like magic is to science. I think it's more a matter of perspective than a question of whether or not it exists.

You get it.

Yea but then it really depends on how you define random. If it had meaning then it wouldn't be random would it, unless if you have a different definition of randomness than I.

Yes I go by the second desription when using the term Higher Inteligence
"....something bigger than our currently perceived reality......"

Originally posted by rom12345
The concept of randomness is only really relevant in the context of predictability, which inherently requires a conscious sampling of a system at a particular point in time. Chaos theory, and the study of dynamical systems, has shown us that complex systems are extremely sensitive to initial conditions, so small changes to a system, make their progression completely unpredictable...

From a practical standpoint, I would agree, but again, the given assumption of the premise is that all factors and rules are known by an omnipotent observer. Those small changes you mentioned would be moot. Whatever the conditions may be, this super-being/machine would know how to calculate the progression.

You said randomness is only relevant to predictability of a sampled system. That's true, but what if you're not sampling? If the fundamental laws, properties, and variables of a system are known, does that mean that the course of all aspects of that system can be calculated? Or is there something truly unknowable and unpredictable that would influence the flow?

Originally posted by an0maly33

Originally posted by rom12345
The concept of randomness is only really relevant in the context of predictability, which inherently requires a conscious sampling of a system at a particular point in time. Chaos theory, and the study of dynamical systems, has shown us that complex systems are extremely sensitive to initial conditions, so small changes to a system, make their progression completely unpredictable...

From a practical standpoint, I would agree, but again, the given assumption of the premise is that all factors and rules are known by an omnipotent observer. Those small changes you mentioned would be moot. Whatever the conditions may be, this super-being/machine would know how to calculate the progression.

You said randomness is only relevant to predictability of a sampled system. That's true, but what if you're not sampling? If the fundamental laws, properties, and variables of a system are known, does that mean that the course of all aspects of that system can be calculated? Or is there something truly unknowable and unpredictable that would influence the flow?

And what is this super being/machine? Perhaps it is all of our consciuosness, all of matter, all of everything. What if each particle, had a "mind of its own" so to speak, and each one was connected so there was perfect communication between all particles of matter and consciousness.

To get a solution to this question, you would need to prove the existence of an omniscient observer.
Until that can be done, random remains as a symbol of the unpredictable.
so :
random exists while I am not God.
and If i was God, i would definitely utilize randomness as a creative tool.

Einstein was appalled by the idea, that randomness could be an intrinsic factor to reality, and said
"God does not play dice".
However the field of Quantum physics is very dependent on randomness.

With irony i will say, there is a distinct probability that randomness may, or may not exist.

reply to post by andersensrm


And what is this super being/machine? Perhaps it is all of our consciuosness, all of matter, all of everything. What if each particle, had a "mind of its own" so to speak, and each one was connected so there was perfect communication between all particles of matter and consciousness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think yes we are all in essence a part of something greater - Yet only a fraction of it
Even the Universe our technology percieves is a fraction of it also - is what I believe.

Originally posted by artistpoet
reply to post by andersensrm

 

And what is this super being/machine? Perhaps it is all of our consciuosness, all of matter, all of everything. What if each particle, had a "mind of its own" so to speak, and each one was connected so there was perfect communication between all particles of matter and consciousness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think yes we are all in essence a part of something greater - Yet only a fraction of it
Even the Universe our technology percieves is a fraction of it also - is what I believe.

edit on 10-2-2012 by artistpoet because: typo

Yes much like we only see a small % of the EM spectrum known as visible light.

A very fascinating and thought-provoking thread. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Another interesting angle to explore is whether your theory relates to Free Will. Are the choices we make really what we will, or are they predetermined by our destiny?

Originally posted by an0maly33

Originally posted by rom12345
The concept of randomness is only really relevant in the context of predictability, which inherently requires a conscious sampling of a system at a particular point in time. Chaos theory, and the study of dynamical systems, has shown us that complex systems are extremely sensitive to initial conditions, so small changes to a system, make their progression completely unpredictable...

You said randomness is only relevant to predictability of a sampled system. That's true, but what if you're not sampling? If the fundamental laws, properties, and variables of a system are known, does that mean that the course of all aspects of that system can be calculated? Or is there something truly unknowable and unpredictable that would influence the flow?

According to contemporary doctrine the un-sampled system is said to be in a superposition of states, and apparently the process of sampling the system, "collapses the probabilistic wave function" so that a specific state can be observed.

It could be said that until observed all possible states are in fact real, but this for me is a bit weird.

I must say I find the notion of a completely deterministic (mechanical) universe rather unsatisfying.

reply to post by rom12345


The truly unpredictable thing would be free will, but then what are we really talking about here. If I choose to go right instead of left, does that mean I would have never of chosen left, or did I choose left in another but equally real dimension, or were there a series of events that led to me choosing right.

reply to post by an0maly33


random is the thing bc what exist is not the object but the object constancy
while what matter is constancy freedom so freedom out of the thing, that can repeat the thing in different associations according to its positive wills and superior free state

Originally posted by an0maly33
I was thinking the other day - just pondering on the way home to work. I got the idea that our reality has a sort of fate to it. Nothing esoteric, spiritual, etc. Think of it like this. At the big bang, There was some set of energy/material that behaved according to some physical law. Imagine that the way the particles and energy interacted could technically be calculated - as in "this particle exerts x force on the adjacent paricles" etc on an effectively infinite scale.

Let's assume you were a being with the mental capacity or had a machine with the computing power to account for every single one of those particles and energy properties and interactions. Could you not extrapolate the way in which the universe would unfold?

Our universe (reality) is potentially a result of a fixed and predictable set of variables. Nothing is random. Even in the computing world we have random number generators that are "good enough", much in the same way that an atomic clock is "good enough" at keeping time. But is anything REALLY random? Is there REALLY such thing as chance?

I think everything we experience, everything we think, everything we do can all be traced back down the line to the initial set of circumstances - particle arrangement/amount, energy types/strengths, motion vectors, etc at the creation of our universe.

Assuming this is the case, our future must also be a function of this. Even if you read this post and you make a conscious decision to do something out of the ordinary - that will be a function of me writing this post, which is a function of me being part of this non-random reality. At the point of the big bang, the being/machine I mentioned earlier would have predicted that in a few billion years someone would think up this idea and post it on the internet, causing you to make a change in your life that you believe would be breaking with the mold that had already been cast. Ultimately, any decisions we make, even if they seem to stray from the norm, are already a predictable function of the reality around us unfolding.

I'm very interested in exploring these ideas and would love to hear your ideas or contentions with what I propose.

edit on 10-2-2012 by an0maly33 because: (no reason given)

The 'physical' construct (which, by definition, our vehicle is part of) has the qualities you have surmised. It has unfolded as you have said it.

The element of chance or ramdomness you describe is encapsulated by the individual FREE WILL...an element of mind and spirit which does not belong in the 'physical' construct....except to manipulate the construct to achieve a result which some remember when they 'in-carnate'...others fumble around, asking whether there is any point, whether FREE WILL exists, whether anything is random, whether it is a predetermined outcome etc. etc. etc...

Good topic

Akushla

Random - Φ

Φ = 1.61803399

The golden ratio, also known as the divine proportion, golden mean, or golden section, is a number often encountered when taking the ratios of distances in simple geometric figures such as the pentagon, pentagram, decagon and dodecahedron. It is denoted Φ , or φ sometimes .

The designations "phi" (for the golden ratio conjugate I/Φ ) and "Phi" (for the larger quantity Φ ) are sometimes also used

Absolutly every thing in nature, has this ratio. From the tips of your fingers to the pattern terds drop from your bowels.

Creation from whatever God you may or may not worship, created from this ratio.

Originally posted by NeoSoul
Random - Φ

Φ = 1.61803399

I don't think that qualifies as random, since once measured the number stays the same. Ok so we can't measure a transcendental number with perfect precision, but we can approximate it and its those approximations which remain static (non random).