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There is no such thing as "random"?

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posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:01 AM
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I was thinking the other day - just pondering on the way home to work. I got the idea that our reality has a sort of fate to it. Nothing esoteric, spiritual, etc. Think of it like this. At the big bang, There was some set of energy/material that behaved according to some physical law. Imagine that the way the particles and energy interacted could technically be calculated - as in "this particle exerts x force on the adjacent paricles" etc on an effectively infinite scale.

Let's assume you were a being with the mental capacity or had a machine with the computing power to account for every single one of those particles and energy properties and interactions. Could you not extrapolate the way in which the universe would unfold?

Our universe (reality) is potentially a result of a fixed and predictable set of variables. Nothing is random. Even in the computing world we have random number generators that are "good enough", much in the same way that an atomic clock is "good enough" at keeping time. But is anything REALLY random? Is there REALLY such thing as chance?

I think everything we experience, everything we think, everything we do can all be traced back down the line to the initial set of circumstances - particle arrangement/amount, energy types/strengths, motion vectors, etc at the creation of our universe.

Assuming this is the case, our future must also be a function of this. Even if you read this post and you make a conscious decision to do something out of the ordinary - that will be a function of me writing this post, which is a function of me being part of this non-random reality. At the point of the big bang, the being/machine I mentioned earlier would have predicted that in a few billion years someone would think up this idea and post it on the internet, causing you to make a change in your life that you believe would be breaking with the mold that had already been cast. Ultimately, any decisions we make, even if they seem to stray from the norm, are already a predictable function of the reality around us unfolding.

I'm very interested in exploring these ideas and would love to hear your ideas or contentions with what I propose.
edit on 10-2-2012 by an0maly33 because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:07 AM
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You should check out the greek theories on this especially Consolation of Philosophy.

Randomness is nonexistent since nothing happens as a result of nothing, everything has a cause and reason to it. The only chance that exists is if one person buries gold and another happens to dig where it was buried. So there is coincidence but not total randomness.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:13 AM
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reply to post by an0maly33
 

I see what you mean
There is another way of looking at it also which involves choice or permeations
If we detroy our Earth we fail to exist as Humans
Do we as active participants truly understand the purpose of ourselves and function of Earth or any other cosmic bodys.
I beleive Intelligence runs through the Universe and finely balances all
Yet take way Intelligence and the whole thing falls apart unless you believe in co incidence
There are many variables
When the so called Big Bang occured it was not an even and predictable unfolding of what we see today
There are many variants of matter some denser tha others some so refined that science fails to see or measure them such as soul
Just my ideas sparked of from your post and not a declaration of Truth
Thanks for posting



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:18 AM
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Are you saying that all 'potentials' already exist and any consciousness in this universe is essentially jumping from choosing to experience one after another pre-existing potential? I may be way off here, but do you think all those so called fixed potentials reside within speed of light possibilities and new potentials/creativity reside in the realm outside the speed of light?



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:21 AM
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reply to post by an0maly33
 


Randomnes is a pattern.
Otherwise how would you recognize it?



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by an0maly33
 


i believe that nothing is random and all the actions you do and make is whats ment to happen. in a sense of matter though. i think that there is still a chance a free will though. im not trying to sound hypocritical im just trying to say that there is one main goal each person has that there going to do but they have free will to and its just going to change how you approach that goal and could possibly delay you from getting to it or you might never get to it at all.

what the goal is no one knows what there is but you will know when the time comes and you just have to make sure you make the right decision



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:32 AM
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Randomness is there...

nothing is 100% or 0%, you could get 99.999999% right about something, but there is still that .00000001%(random %) to still have an outcome, that is random.

Nothing is Absolute, maybe we call it random because we don't understand it yet. Maybe when our mind evolves, we can comprehend that.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:33 AM
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filo - thanks, just looked into that and it seems to be more spiritually-oriented. Not to discount that, but I think it only marginally applies here.

artist - that's a good point. I didn't intend to suppose that the big bang happened the way many scientists conventionally propose. Whatever the spark was, if it was not intelligently created and directed, would seemingly behave by some ruleset - even if that differs from what we understand of physics. Inserting intelligence may change something though. But how far does that go? Even if the initial creation was guided by some omnipotent force that deviated from the physics ruleset in play, the result of that tampering could still progress in a predictable manner - the trajectory of the universe's creation may have been altered, but that altered trajectory can still be calculated.

I do actually believe that the universe is a sort of living entity, of which we are a comparatively insignificant component.

timelab - No, I'm saying there are no potentials.

grey - good point. at least in terms of numbers, I guess you could say it's a pattern that lacks repetition.

confused - that's my very point though. Your "free will" is potentially a false perception of your choice of actions. You will decide to do what you will because your experience, body chemistry, environment, etc have determined that you will make that choice. If you consciously choose not to, then that defiance is also a function of those same factors.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by an0maly33

grey - good point. at least in terms of numbers, I guess you could say it's a pattern that lacks repetition.


Not just numbers but actions also.
You can randomly wander about in a store.
You can pick clothes at random.

A bunch of stuff.
We recognize things as random when they don't have a structure.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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I would make the case that the path you took through the store was still guided by your brain (on some level determined by life experience), and the environment (signage, obstacles (which were also not randomly occurring.)) neither of which are random according to my premise.

let me put it this way...

Bob gets hit by a truck when he goes out to get the mail. what events led up to that event? what events led up to those events? and so on? There's nothing random about it, just a nearly infinitely complex set of variables that resulted in that outcome. He was going to get hit. The only way he wouldn't have was if some being with a perspective bigger than our reality had intervened. If you say "well he might have chosen not to get the mail at that moment." I would then reply with "the factors that lead to that point could not have been altered. If someone shouted at him to move or if he had chosen a different time to get the mail, then his living was the very result that was unavoidably going to occur."

What I propose is that EVERYTHING has structure when you dig deep enough, whether that be physical configuration of matter or the forces acting upon that matter.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by an0maly33
 


Yes I get you - I think the initial spark though who's to know what spark sparked the spark but for ease - If there is a sourse of Higher Intelligence perhaps it also learns and experiments in a controlled way - Some patterns work for example star systems and are repeated such as the human form works so is repeated
There is always the What If - What if I put this with that and see what occurs.


edit on 10-2-2012 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 11:02 AM
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Another thing I find interesting is the idea we use patterns of thought
Yet we have access to other patterns
This is choice and Intention or attitude determines the pattern we use



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by artistpoet
reply to post by an0maly33
 


Yes I get you - I think the initial spark though who's to know what spark sparked the spark but for ease - If there is a sourse of Higher Intelligence perhaps it also learns and experiments in a controlled way - Some patterns work for example star systems and are repeated such as the human form works so is repeated
There is always the What If - What if I put this with that and see what occurs.


edit on 10-2-2012 by artistpoet because: (no reason given)


I didn't come out and say it, but you touched on something that was in the back of my mind. Even if an intelligence created us, THAT is also a result of some fixed set of variables and functions. That creator's actions aren't exempt from this premise.

As far as the "what if" - that comes from lack of understanding, not lack of a calculable result.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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The randomness in a spiritual sense is what allows the human mind and consciousness to grow.
Free will is the only way to allow the growth of spirit. The chaos in the world is chaos. The reaction to it is what determines what a soul learns. If a soul can learn to find patterns in the chaos, then they begin to see that it is not chaos, there is an order, but it is one that most people do not understand because they don't take the time to look for themselves. Once you find your pattern in the chaos, life opens up and if you have a destiny, it becomes fulfilled. I don't so much believe in fate, but I believe we each have a destiny that is open to us if we are open to it.

So I would agree, there is no random.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 11:10 AM
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You might enjoy reading about a thought experiment by Pierre-Simone LaPlace called LaPlace's Demon.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by Toromos
You might enjoy reading about a thought experiment by Pierre-Simone LaPlace called LaPlace's Demon.


YES! This exactly! Thanks for giving me something to sink my brain-teeth into. =)



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by an0maly33
 


Yes I agree "what if i put this with that" Does mean one does not understand - It is an experiment
You are right about calculable risk - Experimentation needs to be confined within safe parameters until the full result and understanding of the result is known.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 11:21 AM
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I think what is most important here, is your definition of random. If you give that to me I would be better equipped to answer or reply to your post. Thanks.



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by artistpoet
 


Risk doesn't enter into it at all. What I meant to say was that just because I don't know what will happen when I throw a rock into a lake, doesn't mean that there's any chance it won't make a splash. The splash is going to happen. My lack of understanding of what might happen and my subsequent experimentation had no influence on that outcome.

Actually, experimentation doesn't enter into it either. Experimentation is a means for us to probe the laws of our reality. My premise assumes that all laws are known.

However, a pertinent question would be "how did I decide I was going to perform the experiment?"

And by random - I think I mean indeterminable.
edit on 10-2-2012 by an0maly33 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2012 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by an0maly33
reply to post by artistpoet
 


Risk doesn't enter into it at all. What I meant to say was that just because I don't know what will happen when I throw a rock into a lake, doesn't mean that there's any chance it won't make a splash. The splash is going to happen. My lack of understanding of what might happen and my subsequent experimentation had no influence on that outcome.

Actually, experimentation doesn't enter into it either. Experimentation is a means for us to probe the laws of our reality. My premise assumes that all laws are known.

However, a pertinent question would be "how did I decide I was going to perform the experiment?"

And by random - I think I mean indeterminable.
edit on 10-2-2012 by an0maly33 because: (no reason given)


I think that all outcomes are already known. The choices we make determine what the outcome will be.
We can pick a wildflower or leave it in the meadow.
We can help an old person carry their heavy shopping or not
We continually have choice yet all outcomes are known - not always by us but by Higher Intelligence
We have choice to use higher intelligence in our limited reality or not
Is war causing famine Higher Intelligence of course not
Is tollerance and respect for our fellow beings higher intelligence - Yes of course
Why is it unitelligent to destroy things
Why is inteligent to be in harmony with our fellows and our Earth
All are choices and all outcomes are pre determined.
When saying about what if I put this with that - I meant from the source of higher Intelligences point of view that knows the outcome of all possibilities. It was planned out before we existed as we do.



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