Questions for those who subscribe to judeochristian beliefs

reply to post by defcon5

First off, God didn’t “create” evil. Evil exists because God exists. It’s like yin/yang, everything thing either falls into one side or the other, there is no neutral. Something is either God's will or its not. Something either has the grace of God or it doesn't.

I beg to differ there, defcon5, God did create evil, and said as much, if you believe the Bible, that is:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

God has not done evil.

Have to differ there too, friend. Read the Bible, have you?
Bible Atrocities
How Many Has God Killed?
Clearly the God of the Bible is not to be trusted, much less worshipped.

reply to post by autowrench


SO MUCH IGNORANCE, AND SO LITTLE TIME!

Sunlight creates shadow? God created lucifer, whom you follow. Lucifer rebelled and drew 1/3 of the angels with him. The fallen angels with satan [lucifer] ended up here and this is where we are now.

Your 2nd statement is as rediculous and infantile as your first.

From what you are saying, I have to believe that when you are old enough to have children and someone threatens to hurt them you will just sit idly by and not raise a finger to help them. That is exactly what you suggest that God do. God had a plan. His plan was Christ and the Gospel. He knew of course that the one you follow, satan, would try to kill off the plan.

So you are saying it was wrong for God to protect His children. Ever heard of the term: "Garbage in, garbage out?" Oh how about: "good morals are corrupted by bad company."

God in preserving me, or my children, or who knows maybe even you, said: "get rid of the corruption."

What you want, obviously is for some pedophile to attack your children. Apparently you would have no qualms for someone to rape a child of yours. Wouldn't raise a hand, huh?

What God was doing was going after the "pedophiles" or "kidnappers" or "baby killers" [they sacrificed children] to keep His children alive. Unfortunately some of the Israelites were like you, they let some of the "canaanites" live.

Oh by the way, one little tiny point. God owns every atom in this universe. It is His business what He does with me. It is none of my business. [Course, I kinda hope He cares for me, but in real world terms, it is not my business.]

By the way, that also means that the feminist: "Our body, our choice." is also a lie straight from hell. The baby belongs to God, what becomes of that person is God's business.

Originally posted by ReformedII

God created lucifer, ... . Lucifer rebelled and drew 1/3 of the angels with him. The fallen angels with satan [lucifer] ended up here and this is where we are now.

Speaking of ignorance...
Where do you get that from? Never was Satan called "Lucifer." Never was Satan an angel. Never did Satan rebel. Satan was created just the way he is - an adversary, given to accuse men in the presence of God and cause them to remain in a sinful state. This is his purpose, for which God created him.

Oh by the way, one little tiny point. God owns every atom in this universe. It is His business what He does with me. It is none of my business. [Course, I kinda hope He cares for me, but in real world terms, it is not my business.]

By the way, that also means that the feminist: "Our body, our choice." is also a lie straight from hell. The baby belongs to God, what becomes of that person is God's business.

This, I agree with. God created all things and is sovereign over all of it.

reply to post by ReformedII

God created lucifer, whom you follow.

That's a lie, how can anyone follow a being created by the Holy Roman Church?

The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?

The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").

Source
You may also be interested in my thread comparing Lucifer with Jesus:
Conspiracy of the Century...Jesus and Lucifer, One and the Same!
I do not know where you get the pedophile stuff, I said nothing about that, have you got that on your mind?

Apparently you would have no qualms for someone to rape a child of yours. Wouldn't raise a hand, huh?

Yes, I would raise a hand, and have done so before. Unlike the God you support, who required a woman to marry her rapist, (Deut. 22:28:29) and sanctioned violation (Rape) of the enemy's women. (Deut. 21:10-14)

God owns every atom in this universe.

And which of the Gods in the Bible would that be, exactly?
You call me infantile, but your hate filled post shows the real uneducated infant here.

Originally posted by autowrench

Unlike the God you support, who required a woman to marry her rapist, (Deut. 22:28:29)

God commanded a rapist to marry the woman he rapes because of Genesis 2:24 (NIV) - "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh."

Paul echoed this sentiment in 1 Corinthians 6:15-16 (NIV) - "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.'"

You'll notice, between the old and new covenants, things changed. Rape is no longer tolerated for any reason - it was only tolerated in the first place because, as I already stated, the Law was not to establish right versus wrong (which would be established under Christ), rather it was to establish Israel versus the pagan nations. The nation of Israel wasn't ready yet for the moral, spiritual perfection of the new covenant. If they had been, then Christ and the gift of Grace would have been given to the Israelites in Egypt instead of Moses and the curse of the Law.

reply to post by CLPrime


so i stand corrected.


god is not all powerfull and is not all knowing, and not alpha and omega, and god barely knows anything of his creations.


and he still hates amputees

Originally posted by CLPrime

Originally posted by ReformedII

God created lucifer, ... . Lucifer rebelled and drew 1/3 of the angels with him. The fallen angels with satan [lucifer] ended up here and this is where we are now.

Speaking of ignorance...
Where do you get that from? Never was Satan called "Lucifer." Never was Satan an angel. Never did Satan rebel. Satan was created just the way he is - an adversary, given to accuse men in the presence of God and cause them to remain in a sinful state. This is his purpose, for which God created him.

Oh by the way, one little tiny point. God owns every atom in this universe. It is His business what He does with me. It is none of my business. [Course, I kinda hope He cares for me, but in real world terms, it is not my business.]

lol
so god create satan with a all knowing plan as to what was going to happen with satan, but does not have the same knowledge on us?
not a plan with knowledge of what was going to happen with satan in detail for not one human?


god sounds like stalin in that;

"the best way to defeat oppisition is to lead it."

this is what they believe and preach to eachother,
lovely.







talmud quotes



does any of that sound like freedom?

Originally posted by violence=answer
this is what they believe and preach to eachother,
lovely.


talmud quotes



does any of that sound like freedom?

It's likely from the Babylonian Talmud (which was edited up until around 700 AD). The quotes you see are from the legal opinions, analysis, and debates (on a wide variety of subjects) of the rabbis who are recorded in the Gemara- who are commenting on what rabbis wrote in the Mishnah. All of this is post destruction of their temple in 70 AD. Judaism is a varied religion. Just because it may be in the Talmud doesn't hold too much water.

reply to post by violence=answer


You're taking everything said to a ridiculous extreme and trying to use it to prove your point. God being subject to time like everyone, and everything, else does not make him any less powerful. People seem to have an inflated impression of God. An infinite, time-independent god is just silly. God is real, and he has real qualities. He's not magic...just Spiritual. He's not infinite...just all-knowing and all-powerful (two things that in no way indicate any sort of infinite nature).
Let's say you have a universe confined to a 1 cubic meter box. You know everything that happens in that box, and you can influence anything that happens in that box. Within the confines of that box universe, are you not all-powerful and all-knowing? But, you're not infinite, are you?

Originally posted by violence=answer

so god create satan with a all knowing plan as to what was going to happen with satan, but does not have the same knowledge on us?
not a plan with knowledge of what was going to happen with satan in detail for not one human?

God created Satan for a purpose from the foundation of the Earth. God didn't create us from the foundation of the Earth. We were born much (or, in our case, much, much, much) later. And, to create each us for any specific purpose would deny us free will. He can certainly choose us to do his predetermined will, but it's our choice to actually do so, and, if it were possible for God's foresight to be wrong, then we could always refuse to do what he wants. It just so happens that God does have impeccable foresight, and he knows who will choose to do what before they do.
The fact that we have free will is evidenced by the fact that many people reject his gift of salvation. He doesn't force them to believe...he gives them free will. People come to him freely. It's always our decision.

If God were to deny us free will and cause everyone to accept him, then you would be crying that he's not giving you free will. But, since God allows you the free will to make your own choices and reject him if you want, you're crying that God is predestining some people to hell. He can't win with you, can he?

reply to post by CLPrime

God created Satan for a purpose from the foundation of the Earth.

OK, CLPrime, if that is so, then why could not God snap his fingers and zap Satan right out of existence? Why keep someone around who could usurp your throne? And as we who have researched the Bible know well, God is no stranger to killing, in fact, he is quite adept at it. Just asking.

reply to post by autowrench


Satan has no chance of usurping God's throne. All created beings have power only because God allows them to (even man only has free will because God allows them to). Satan exists to accuse man in the presence of God...like a prosecutor. He will exist until his job is done.
He will be destroyed whenever the time comes for God to destroy this sinful world. As per Revelation 20:7-10 - "And, whenever the thousand years have been completed, the adversary will be loosed from his prison, and he will go out to deceive the nations – the ones at the four corners of the earth: Gog and Magog, to assemble them to the battle –, whose number is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the holy ones, even the beloved city. And there came down fire from the air, and devoured them. And the accuser – the one deceiving them – was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where are even the beast and the false prophet, and will be tortured day and night, to the ages of the ages."

reply to post by TXTriker

I do not believe I will make it to heaven for some of the things in my past. Even if I lived the rest of my life in strict accordance with the requirements.

You will.
You'll be fine.
The most important thing is being able to *facepalm* and say, 'Why did I do that? What was I thinking?'
We live, we learn, we grow....and we get there.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by violence=answer

 

You're taking everything said to a ridiculous extreme and trying to use it to prove your point. God being subject to time like everyone, and everything, else does not make him any less powerful. People seem to have an inflated impression of God. An infinite, time-independent god is just silly. God is real, and he has real qualities. He's not magic...just Spiritual. He's not infinite...just all-knowing and all-powerful (two things that in no way indicate any sort of infinite nature).
Let's say you have a universe confined to a 1 cubic meter box. You know everything that happens in that box, and you can influence anything that happens in that box. Within the confines of that box universe, are you not all-powerful and all-knowing? But, you're not infinite, are you?

if god is subjected to time, how is he alpha and omega and where did he come from?


p.s.
thanks for the good convo.

Originally posted by violence=answer

if god is subjected to time, how is he alpha and omega and where did he come from?

"Alpha and omega" indicates his eternal existence and sovereignty. To ask where he came from implies that time had a beginning. There are two possibilities: either God has always existed subject to time, or time is a construct within this universe and God is only subject to time within it. It's not clear which is right, and I'm not sure it matters. Regardless, God is eternal and sovereign.

p.s.
thanks for the good convo.

Anytime. I rarely get into any Biblical discussions on ATS. I tend to keep to physics around here. It's good to "come out" every once in a while.