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Questions for those who subscribe to judeochristian beliefs

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posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:10 PM
This isn't a religion bashing thread. My mother recently started attending a new church, Church of Christ. She hadn't actively attended church in years. Her entire disposition changed in the 6 months she's been there, she's gone hyperjudgemental and narrow minded over the past 6 months. My wife and kids are Catholic. My oldest goes to a Catholic school, my pre k kids go to a Methodist pre k program. I believe in a creation force in the universe but I don't know if it influences the universe anymore. I don't bash any religion because faith is intensely personal. I'm logical and educated. I'm open minded. My mother and I got into a huge debate about Christianity now that she's born again. I tried to stay out of it, but she pushed and pushed until she got her argument started. I want to pose some questions to Christians and Jews on the site. I don't want to use this thread to poke holes in fringe judeochristian beliefs(I'll leave the Mormons alone), but the mainstream believers, Old Testament and New Testament and nothing more. I'd prefer not to have input from other religions or Atheist because they can't answer the questions that I'm about to ask. They are the same one's I posed to my mother. And believing in the Old and/or New Testament is a prerequisite for answering the questions.

Now I know some Christians are going to say they don't think the Old Testament applies to their faith. But let me eradicate that objection before we begin. Jesus said, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill. Amen I say unto you, not the smallest part or smallest part of a letter will pass from the law until all things have taken place". In Peter he said "... there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation..." So, if you worship Jesus and accept his teachings as true then you must accept the validity of the OT because he did. He validated it in speech on several occasions and many times with his actions(supported the law of Moses".

QUESTION 1- How can you worship the God of the Bible considering the atrocities he committed?
EX... One of his commandments is, "Thou shall not kill". Yet breaking any of those commandments invokes the death penalty. There are numerous quotes for this, parents with unruly children should have the men of the village stone the child to death. Etc... Hypocrisy. God orders humans to kill for him and has them enforce penalties for breaking commandments via capitol punishment. But let's cover God himself. He got ticked off and put one family on a boat and killed every living thing on the earth. If he wasn't your God, wouldn't you consider that evil? There are numerous passages that show God killing tens of thousands of men himself not to count the people he had slaughtered on his behalf by people or angels. God also mass murdered innocent children. He had pregnant women's belly's ripped open and the child ripped out and killed. He forced people into cannibalism. "I am the LORD your God, ...... And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Leviticus 26:13,29). Several times. He killed 70,000 innocent people because he was angry with king David. In Exodus he ordered each man to take s sword and kill his brother, friend and neighbor. In Ezekiel he made men eat there own feces. He required severed heads to be strung up to quell his anger. He also encourages slavery more times than I can count. He also makes it clear that women are inferior and substandard. I think everyone knows the bible is sexist. Enough. How can you worship a God that orders you to kill homosexuals, anyone who works on Sunday, atheists, anyone of a different religious sect, anyone who curses mom or dad, cheats on their spouse, kill your rebellious kids, encourages slavery, forbids women to have authority over men, mass murders people out of spite, murders innocent children, encourages rape as well as wipes out the entire planet in a fit of rage? How and why would you worship someone like that?

QUESTION 2- How can you worship Jesus? Jesus fully supports the old testament and it's laws. So all that vile stuff God did, Jesus supports. The law of the lord is perfect. Jesus actually admonished several people for not adhering to the OT and putting their rebellious kids to death. Twice. Mark 7:9-13 Mathew 15:4-7. Jesus got angry at a fig tree for not having figs out of season, so he killed it. Sounds a smidge unbalanced for a love and peace type guy. He also lied to you. Several times, regarding prayer. I hear excuses about prayer but he firmly stated on numerous occasions that "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do" or something similar. Nothing was said about the quality of the prayer or God judging it's worth. He says he will fulfill the prayers of the faithful. I guess we've never had an amputee pray for a new limb. Communion is proof most Christians don't read the bible. Jesus said, " Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." Seems like he's being literal. Love your enemy he preached but then he condemned his enemies to hell. Where did all the love go? Hypocrisy. What ever you ask for in prayer, believe you have received it and it shall be yours. Hypocrisy. Wait, oops, that's a lie. Jesus refused to help a possessed girl even though her mother begged him for help. Why wouldn't he help? She was a Canaanite. Send her away he said. I was sent here for the children of Israel. It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs. Wow. Jerk. Don't forget his table flipping tantrum in the temple area in Mark. Why do you worship this guy who fully supports the atrocities of his father and is kinda nutty himself? He seems far from perfect. And if you think he's perfect I assume you agree with him on his fathers actions as well as some of his sins? After all he did lie.

QUESTION3-Do you think you will go to Heaven? Luke 14:26 You can't be his disciple unless you hate your friends, family and life itself. Love God and your neighbor. Luke 18:18-22 Follow the commandments and "sell everything you have and give it to the poor". John 6:53-58 You have to eat his "real flesh and real blood". Be like a child. You have to be born again of water and spirit. Oh your adherence to the LAW must exceed that of the Pharisees. There are about a dozen other things Jesus says you must do to enter Heaven. And some of them are contradictory, meaning he lied. But if you are reading this you aren't making it to Heaven because you haven't given it all to the poor yet.

I'm not even going to debate if the God of the Jews and Jesus are real. I'll make the assumption that they are. Knowing the evil God has done(and he's all knowing and everything that happens is part of his plan,including evil), how can you worship him and think him fair,just and benevolent? Jesus supports what God has done. Jesus showed he is not sin free. How can you worship him? To accomplish everything Jesus requires to enter Heaven isn't possible. So the reality is you can't go. Please justify your support of the mass murdering, child butchering god of the Bible.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:16 PM
reply to post by DrJay1975

You might want to get a greek translation bible and read the literal meanings to some of the items you quoted. That should open your eyes a bit.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:19 PM
reply to post by DrJay1975

I’m not Christian but you’re not going to get a straight answer from any theist here.
All I can say is that ignorance is bliss.
I have always found it weird that they completely ignore the word of their god for this jesus guy who made many failed prophecies and god specifically warned people to be weary of guys like him.
Reality is that no people who follow the bible today actually follow it like they are meant to, which defeats the entire purpose.
The blind faith they have is dangerous because even tho they don’t follow or think about the bad parts of the bible now, the church and religious leaders can use that blind faith to make them follow it. If they faked the return of jesus which would be easy to do with modern technology they could get their followers to do anything and if they follow the bible this could mean genocide or war or whatever else.
At the end of the day they follow the crap because their elders who were forced to believe it told them too and that’s a simple fact. Social influence is a strong power and impossible to go against for most people, people will do the norm to be the norm even if that means believing in fairy tales.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:24 PM
hi there.

I'm a Christian, and believe wholeheartedly in the literal truth of Scripture. I believe that the Bible in its original form (i.e not translations, but the original texts) is without error, and that God Himself breathed all scripture (1 Timothy 3:16).

So... with that in mind, everything that you've stated, everything you've written in your OP, is deserving of an answer. There are some really deep, and really challenging questions in there, but there *are* answers to them.

I don't have time to answer them all right now (I'm at work in my lunch break), but I'd love to come back to this when I have more time and give it the attention it deserves... so if you'll be patient with me, I'll be back!

I do agree though, that you have to be a little careful in terms of translations. For example, the word translated "hate" in your last example (hate your life, family, etc. if you wish to follow Christ) *is* intended to be extreme, but rather than signifying hatred per se, it's a reference to... essentially despising one thing in the light of another. So, while a five dollar note might be worth a lot in my eyes, it pales into insignificance in the light of a bar of gold. It's practically worthless... and you'd be mad to choose $5 over a bar of gold. That's the example Jesus is giving there.

Anyway. I'll revisit this soon. Keep seeking the answers to the tough questions though. God doesn't fear our questions!

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:28 PM
I try to live as I believe is Christian. I try never to hurt intentionally and to help where I can. I'm not a bible reader though I have read sections of the NT can't says as I've read any of the OT other than what people quote.

I do not believe I will make it to heaven for some of the things in my past. Even if I lived the rest of my life in strict accordance with the requirements.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:36 PM
1/ Atrocities have been part of this planet for a very long time, since life formed in the sea and bacteria started competing for resources. It has been the same story since, just with different actors. A condition of life is death, so it cannot be helped.

2/ I respect Jesus, he had a lot of smart things to say. When religion says that 'he died for our sins' it starts to lose the plot.

3/ The only thing I am certain about is that the consequences of our actions live on after we die. Apart from that I have no expectations, just lots of theories and ideas.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:38 PM
reply to post by DrJay1975

If need be, I'll be back tomorrow evening (11-ish hours from now...if you can wait that long) to reply in more detail. I just wanted to say, now, that I'm a preacher within the churches of the Restoration (the churches of Christ), and I'm not sure what aspect of the Church of Christ would cause your mother to act the way you describe. Granted, every group has its extremists, so the churches of Christ are bound to be no different in that regard. And, even traditional churches of Christ have edged toward becoming denominational, even while claiming to be non-denominational (that's one of the biggest things I preach on, and one of the hardest things to overcome).

Also, as others have said, in order to get a fuller understanding of some of the points you bring up, you really need to have an understanding of the original languages. Fortunately, in the case of the New Testament, I happen to be quite strong in Greek. Instead of trusting standard translations, I often translate passages myself. That's really the only way to be sure.

As for your questions, I will be I said, if you still need, or want, my input by the time I get back.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:45 PM
reply to post by DrJay1975

Sounds like a God with emotions right.? I personally believe in one transcendent god, the binding force of singularity, the progession of everything to infinity, and infinite fractals. Using an accurate translation of the Old Testament, the LORD is always described with a physical presence, not a depiction of how he looked but the Lord had physical presence not the made-up abstract thought of spirit by the Greek.

In regards to Yeshua or Jesus as most call him, all I can say is he wasn't perfect.

Yeshua gives us one simple task to salvation and Heaven: belief in him.
You don't have to be baptized, and you WON'T achieve salvation through church.
edit on 7-2-2012 by CaptainNemo because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 08:49 PM
reply to post by DrJay1975

DrJay, several years ago, I thought I'd check out what the atheists had to say, with an open mind. There was a website asking why God won't heal amputees. As soon as I saw this mentioned in your post, the red flag went up.

I was expecting you to say something about Church of Christ Mom telling Catholic wife she's going to Hell. (I've heard that from real people, in the South). Instead you went on something of a rant about how evil God is. I'm sorry if you're actually serious, but something's wrong here. Sorry. I'm not even "religious", but more spiritual.

I hope you find the answers you really need.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 09:29 PM
I too find these characteristic of the judeo-christian god unworthy of belief, I don't believe any amount of apologetics could convince me otherwise. I do however have hope that the real God, is one of compassion, understanding and truth.
I personally would not like to abandon the notion just yet.
Why assume because these books are old, that they are the words of God, mostly their chapters are clearly marked as the words of various men.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 09:32 PM

Now I know some Christians are going to say they don't think the Old Testament applies to their faith. But let me eradicate that objection before we begin. Jesus said, "Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish but to fulfill. Amen I say unto you, not the smallest part or smallest part of a letter will pass from the law until all things have taken place". In Peter he said "... there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation..." So, if you worship Jesus and accept his teachings as true then you must accept the validity of the OT because he did. He validated it in speech on several occasions and many times with his actions(supported the law of Moses".

Before anything else is answered. You need to understand from a christian what these verses you are quoting and referring to mean. You are making a judgement based on a lack of understanding of biblical and christian doctrine. These verses are key to understanding what the bible says Christ came to accomplish.

Since you only want christians to answer these questions, I'll leave it for them to explain.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 10:35 PM
How can I worship God considering the attrocities He committed?

The attrocitties in question were the consequence of man's rebellion and the fallen angels' rebellion and Satan. Bear with me. In Genesis 6, the fallen angels came down to Earth or took a physical form and "knew' or bred with human women... creating a cross or contaminated seed. The people or beings killed in the flood were impure. The KJV states that Noah's "generations were pure"... uncontaminated DNA. All other beings were continuously thinking of and committing evil. Read the Book of Enoch. Was part of the Bible upto the 1400's and even Jesus refers to the Book of Enoch.

Genesis states further this happened in the days of Noah AND AFTER. This means the fallen angels interbred again and those crosses settled in Canaan... North Palestine and Lebannon. Thus, when Joshua and the Israelites spied into Cannan, they found people "likened to giants." Balbeek and it's ruins are in Lebannon and so was Jericho...that is why Joshua was ordered to kill every man, woman, and child. This is also the origins of Goliath and King Og of Bashan, whose bed was 13.5 feet long...

The Israelites were ordered to kill their brothers in Exodus because while Moses was away and delayed in receiving the 10 Commandments, the people below made a golden calf and false idol... This harkened back to the false gods of Egypt, sun worship, pagan fertility rites, and God was determined to rid the Israelites of this blight. It was a conscious and deliberate act by the Israelites and they were punished as such.

God shows human emotion and characteristics because He made man in His image. God does not act like man... BUT man acts like God.

Look at the developement of God throughout the Old Testament and contrast that with the New Testament. God changes as He reveals Himself to us and His people and children.Just like your father was to you when you were really young. He was stern, the provider, the disciplinarian, sometimes he seemed harsh, yet at the same time he loved you and showed it in so many ways. He didn't explain things then because even if he did, you wouldn't understand.

Now fast forward to your adulthood. Your relationship with your father has matured. He is more understanding, more patient, gives you more freedom and levity...he loves you and shows you, but in such a different way than when a child. What has changed? He is still the same man and father you knew as a kid...What has changed is the understanding and relationship you share.

Now use the same analogy on God. Stern disciplinarian. Tells you to stay out of the highway, but fails to give you the grisly details of what will happen if you don't... just do it because I say so. Now fast forward a few thousand years to the New Testament. Same God, but shows a more loving side, a more mature relationship...

That leads us to Jesus...

To love Jesus, you must hate your family... no...bad choice of words or more correctly, bad translation. To love Jesus, you must love Him more than all others and follow Him absolutely... that's all it means. Jesus doesn't want you to hate anyone.

Many scrptures and quotes are taken out of context and without understanding the "meat" of the Word. Kinda like saying "the Cowboys killed the Redskins last Sunday"... Really?! No, not really.. it was a football game, But out of context, it takes on a negative meaning.

Jesus taught us to love one another. To be forgiving, giving, loving, generous, tolerant, peaceful...Christianity in a nutshell is found in Matthew 5-6-7... The Sermon on the Mount. We may not agree with other people's lives or lifestyles, but it is not ours to judge..."Judge not lest ye be judged."

So many Christians and so-called Christians get trapped by their own devices in select scrptures and texts. They do to themselves trying to prove the Bible exactly what so many try to do to disprove the Bible... They treat it like the Chuckwagon Buffet... picking only what they want and excluding the rest. John in Revelation warned against this...adding and taking away from the Bible.

As for dying for our sins...People sin. When we think a bad or angry or lewd thought, we sin.When our gaze lingers on a woman or man in a lustful fashion... we sin. When we take the dollar someone just dropped and put it in our pocket... we sin. When we curse someone or get jealous or envious or angry... we sin. Everyday, even the most devout and sweetest people sin. That is man's nature.

We need Jesus. He took our punishment so that we don't have to. He Purified and swept away our transgressions so we don't have to. Let's say you are a parent. You have a child you love dearly, but that child makes a mistake. You hate to see him/her be punished, so you pay for it... you take their place because you love them. That's what God and Jesus did for you. All they ask in return is your love your neighbor is to love Christ. So easy...yet, sometimes so hard.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 11:47 PM
I couldn't agree with this guy MORE!

Please take a peek at this MSNBC Documentary. I guarantee it's going to help you and your family out.

posted on Feb, 7 2012 @ 11:56 PM
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

this is probably going to get long, you ask a lot of semi-complex questions, so I’ll break it up in several posts.

Originally posted by DrJay1975
My mother recently started attending a new church, Church of Christ.

If you mean the Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons), then she's really not attending a traditional Christian Church to begin with. The Mormons are more of a cult then a Christian organization, and they do not follow the same teachings as traditional Christianity. Their primary religious document is the “Book of Mormon”, not the Bible. They have a variety of beliefs that are pretty far out there (God is an Alien, etc.) compared to traditional Christian teaching. The Mormons have also been accused of using various methods of brainwashing on their members.

Originally posted by DrJay1975
Now I know some Christians are going to say they don't think the Old Testament applies to their faith.

This would be correct, much of the Old Testament does not apply to Christians, and never applied to Gentiles to begin with. You have to understand that all those rules and punishments in the Old Testament are mostly rules of the Jewish people, they did not come from God, and they do not apply outside Judaism.

You see, god had a special bond with the Jewish people, and they agreed to do certain things sort of like binding the contract between themselves and God. It even says this multiple times in the bible were these rules are mentioned.

In theology and Biblical studies, the word "covenant" principally refers to any of a number of solemn agreements made between God and the children of Israel in the Hebrew Bible, as well as to the New Covenant, which some Christians consider to be the replacement or final fulfilment of these, see Supersessionism.

that’s why you’ll see a lot of: “you do this, and it will be a sign of the covenant between me and your people”, or “We’ll do that as a sign of our covenant between us and God”, stuff in the bible. The “Covenant” was that God would send the Messiah through the Jewish people, specifically the line of David.

So any Christian that tells you that the Jewish “Covenant” Laws of the Old Testament do not apply to them, is telling you the truth. As you mentioned, Christ said he came not to Destroy the law, but to fulfill it. He was fulfilling Gods part of the covenant, its now fulfilled, and those old Jewish traditional covenant laws no longer apply.

As a matter of fact, its SO fulfilled that God allowed Israel and the Temple to be destroyed, the Jewish Sacrifice to be taken away, and the people to be scattered out of their land. This is mostly because they would not accept the messiah, and would not move on from their old system of belief. Why would God still want the Jewish people to be sacrificing goats to him for the Forgiveness of their sins, after he sent his SON to make the Ultimate sacrifice. Sort of like saying, “Hey God, we didn’t like that messiah guy you sent, so here have a goat instead”… I can understand how God would be insulted by that, can’t you?

To this day the Ark is missing, the Temple is trodden under the gentile feet of the Muslim Dome of the Rock, and it will be to the end of the world… Like the Covenant laws, its no longer needed, and shows a lack of understanding and faith that God has already sent the Messiah.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 2/7/2012 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 8 2012 @ 12:38 AM
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Originally posted by DrJay1975
QUESTION 1- How can you worship the God of the Bible considering the atrocities he committed?

Well first off there’s the matter of perspective.
You are a human, you have a set of rules and morals from that human perspective.
God, on the other hand, is the creator.

You cannot apply your rules, from your human perspective, to God.
Let me give you an example, albeit possibly a poor example as there really is no good one:

You “create” a file on your computer, do you have a problem with deleting that file?
Do you feel you owe that file some level of respect as a file? Maybe you created that file only to fulfill a purpose, and its no longer needed. Maybe that file kept getting corrupted by viruses, and was constantly corrupting your other files. Maybe you made the file specifically to save another more important file, then be deleted.
See, the difference of perspective yet?

The Bible states that not only is God NOT a “respecter of man”, but also that some men were only here for him to complete certain tasks that were a part of his bigger plan:

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Romans 9:
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,

According to the Bible, your life is predetermined.

when you murder someone, or someone kills themselves, they are taking from God what is not rightly theirs to take. They did not make their life, nor another’s, and they have no right to take what belongs to God, because God created it. God, on the other hand, has the right to take back what he has created, or granted, at his will.

See, human perspective is that a persons life belongs to them, yet they didn’t create their life, God did.

Now with that said…
God also grants certain powers to both governments and society, two of which are to enforce justice on their people, and to fight “just” wars.

Many of the things you listed in your above question are cases of both Israel fighting “just” wars against others, and them enforcing their (not Gods) rules of Justice (laws) as written in places such as the Old Testament.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 2/8/2012 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 8 2012 @ 01:57 AM
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

I’m going to skip to Q3 ATM, because to be honest Q2 has so many different things in it that it was giving me a headache reading it.

Originally posted by DrJay1975 QUESTION3-Do you think you will go to Heaven?

Yes. The older I get, the more I am starting to also become a Universalist. The more I study, the more I realize that many of the original Church founders sort of felt the same way. For one thing many felt the Pseudepigraphal book “the Apocalypse of Peter” should have been in the Bible. IMHO, God can ultimately save anyone that does not completely reject him.

It sounds to me like you have been a product of some level of Roman Catholic teaching however. They errantly teach salvation through both faith and works. This was how they kept the population under their control for thousands of years, and made a ton of money in the process. It’s why they kept the common man from having access to the Bible for as long as possible. This is also why the Protestant Reformation happened, and why many of the Protestant fathers taught that the Papacy was the “Beast” of Revelation.

In reality, you don’t have to do anything at all to be saved, other then accepting Christ. Its called “salvation through faith”, and it’s a hard concept to miss if you have read the New Testament, or even watched a ball game on TV:

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

It does not say:

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him, and turns in enough box tops, should not perish, but have eternal life."

It’s pretty simple, couldn’t be simpler, right?

All that other stuff in there your listing is not a requirement for salvation, and some of it has rather complex meanings as to why they were said, and what they really mean.
as an example:

Originally posted by DrJay1975 Luke 18:18-22 Follow the commandments and "sell everything you have and give it to the poor"

What this was really about, was simply that he was fooling himself. You have to read the entire quote to understand this though, so here it is:

18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 20 You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’” 21 And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” 22 When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

After what I explained above, hopefully you see one problem right off the bat here (edited by me, of course):

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Teacher, what shall I do (AKA how many box tops should I turn in) to inherit eternal life?

Christ already knew that not only didn’t this guy “get it”, but he was trying to make it to heaven through his own works. What Christ effectively did was show him that he could not be “prefect” enough to make it there through his own works by following the law.

So you see, not all that stuff you listed is as straightforward as it initially seems.

All these works are things you should want to do as a Christian, because they are pleasing to God, but none of them are mandatory for your salvation.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

posted on Feb, 8 2012 @ 02:47 AM
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Originally posted by DrJay1975
and he's all knowing and everything that happens is part of his plan,including evil

First off, God didn’t “create” evil. Evil exists because God exists. It’s like yin/yang, everything thing either falls into one side or the other, there is no neutral. Something is either God's will or its not. Something either has the grace of God or it doesn't.

Sort of like this site. The owners (creators) set a character limit per post, and if you go beyond that it gets cut off, or has to go in another post. Its their site, its their rules, they set them, and we as users don’t really get a say in setting those rules. If you don’t like Gods rules, I guess that you can go make your own universe and set your own rules.

Originally posted by DrJay1975
Knowing the evil God has done, how can you worship him and think him fair,just and benevolent?

God has not done evil. He didn’t make this world the way it is now, he made it perfect for us. We altered this world to make it what it is today, and we are now subject to living under the law, in a world full of sin and death, that is ruled by Satan. So when bad things happen, its not gods fault, ultimately its our own fault.

Originally posted by DrJay1975
Jesus actually admonished several people for not adhering to the OT and putting their rebellious kids to death. Twice. Mark 7:9-13 Mathew 15:4-7.

First, its not twice, it’s the same thing in two different books. Secondly he is not telling them to “kill their kids”, he’s admonishing them for picking and choosing what laws they decided to follow after they first accused him of the breaking old testament law:

1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6 they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Originally posted by DrJay1975
Jesus got angry at a fig tree for not having figs out of season, so he killed it.

Show me the Bible quote that says “thou shalt not kill a fig tree”?
More importantly though, was the lesson of “that which does not bear fruit should be cut down”. Israel is often symbolized in the Bible by the Fig tree.

Anyway, that’s enough from me for one night. Hopefully it covers your main issues.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

posted on Feb, 8 2012 @ 05:02 AM
The pure belief of Christianity is not "Judeo-Christian".

"This is not an uncommon impression and one finds it sometimes among Jews as well as Christians - that Judaism is the religion of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament). It is, of course, a fallacious impression…Judaism is not the religion of the Bible." (Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser, “Judaism and the Christian Predicament”, page 59)

"The return from Babylon and the introduction of the Babylonian Talmud mark the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism." (The late Rabbi Stephen F. Wise, formerly the Chief Rabbi of the United States)

The vast majority of persons who follow the religion of Judaism reject the law of Moses and worship according to man-made doctrine. Therefore to think that Christianity stems from Judaism is blasphemous.  In John 5:46 Jesus told them, "Had ye believed in Moses, ye would have believed Me: for he wrote of Me." and in John chapter 10 Jesus said "I am the good Shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine. But ye believe not because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me." Start by understanding the history of the word "Jew" in scripture.

On to your vast criticisms of the "evil" God... Your post started out in one direction as if you were concerned for your mother  - then abruptly just turned into a "God is evil post". Your concern for your mother went out the window because this post isn't seeking answers, it's to push your view instead of understand. In fact, you end your thread with the sentence "Please justify your support of the mass murdering, child butchering god of the Bible." How are you even to hear if you already hold that belief? You have convinced yourself that your "interpretation" is correct- and the tragic thing is that God will leave you believing that delusion. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 ".....and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.."

In which case Jesus' command to not cast your pearls before swine is applicable. Nothing that I say will convince you because you have been blinded. You have chosen to believe the lies and you show that you do not love the truth. You asking us to "justify supporting an "evil" God" is ludicrous and clearly shows that your motive is NOT to understand where you have erred, but rather for us to justify YOUR beliefs. God is the source of truth and He is the only one who can remove the blinders. If you truly wanted the truth instead of the world, you'd turn and seek it from Him. And then each one of your hardened beliefs would crumble like dust. But will you be an unbelieving Pharisee, so convinced that his own opinion is the correct one, or will you be a sinner that saw the mercy and love God offered through His Son Christ Jesus? I'll pray with my whole heart that it's the latter, that you will reflect inwardly about the meaning of a "humble heart" and the meaning of what Jesus meant when He explained why He spoke in parables: ""Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. . . .Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. . . . lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matthew 13:11-15

OP, do you seek the Truth of God or do you seek to justify your own beliefs? If it's the latter, then you will not understand nor can you reconcile scripture "God is love.", "I desired mercy not sacrifice" with the beliefs that somebody else has planted in your head. Those beliefs in your head have been placed there through a lifetime of indoctrination and propaganda by a completely controlled media... And do I dare point out WHO owns all news agencies, publishing houses, film studios, television networks and the largest lobbying firms? Who invented communism, fascism etc? Who's wicked Kabala and Talmud formed the basis of most secret societies? Who calls themselves "Israel" yet never show that God's laws were written in their hearts? My point is simple: shake the brainwashing and indoctrination of anti-Christ propaganda out of your brain and perhaps your thread would come from the righteous question of "Who is God" or "Help me to understand God" - instead of "Justify your evil God".

posted on Feb, 8 2012 @ 06:36 AM
reply to post by DrJay1975

QUESTION 1- How can you worship the God of the Bible considering the atrocities he committed?

-If you posses the correct perspective, the answers are available. By faith, we trust. From faith, we study with an open mind and heart. The perspective most people hold is locked in a fixed mindset by pride and theology. When you actually read with an open heart and mind, the answers appear with clarity. The bridge between literal and spiritual is by walking in virtue and truth. Once you do this, the answers appear. If you are willing to think and study, here are the answers in short form and long.

1) Your soul is not yours as a possession. It's a gift. LINK
2) LINK-You must be born again. This is transformation now. It's also a new life when you are physically born again.

If you can see it, your understanding is based on a false premise that life can be lost and that you own that life.

3) God works from the bigger picture, while you work from the smaller picture. Not only have you been judged a thief by the law, that law is designed around a criminal. The law was there to show you both sides of the law. One side is the tyranny that results from greed. The other side is the punishment that results from being a criminal. The third part is the salvation that comes when you decide to finally follow the law. The law can be summed up in one word. LOVE. If you love, there is no law that can bind you. If you do not love, you are bound by self-made tyranny from pride. God works by showing us the larger picture over 6000 years of lives. You are under a veil so you don't see the larger picture until it's over. How many lives? It's a mystery. LINK

Once the premise is correct in your mind, the questions change. The one above seems much more logical. Again, if you are willing to study, the answers are there. If you are willing to die to find out, the answers are revealed in judgment. Baptism is your rebirth into the reality of water. Spirit is true reality.

QUESTION 2- QUESTION 1- How can you worship the God of the Bible considering the atrocities he committed?

-What atrocities? All of life is an education. Sin requires payment. A criminal and thief will pay the penalty of their actions. Since you cannot die, the only thing you lose is your vehicle. It will die on its own. Anything that happens here is judged later by God. Reward follows for those who are unjustly harmed. Those who harm themselves are free to do so. If you harm others, you will pay the debt to sin. God is not harming your soul, he's helping it. You must be born again. You will be born again. There are some who will not. This is defined in the Bible. Read this article. LINK

QUESTION 2- How can you worship Jesus? Jesus fully supports the old testament and it's laws. So all that vile stuff God did,

-Jesus and God are one. The LORD of Genesis 2 all the way to Revelation is Jesus. YHVH stands for "Behold the hand, behold the nail." LINK

QUESTION3-Do you think you will go to Heaven?

The Bible indicates that there is a Heaven, but it also says Jesus is the only one to ascend to the Father. You can make a case for us going to heaven, but the larger evidence points to a new Earth after the next 1000 years. You must be born again to see new life. My personal view on the matter is that we gain union with the Spirit when we finally see God from love and not animosity. For me, the process is water baptism into life on a planet. This gives us a chance to find God on our own. If we fail to gain union, we repeat. Each time, we are refined as children of God. When we finally learn the lesson of the law (LOVE), we gain union with God.

Sperm and egg gain union when two people fall in love. The baby develops in a womb. The baby then emerges from the womb into a 2nd womb of the Earth. It develops and might find union with God in love. If it does, the spirit and the soul gain union and you are reborn into the spirit. This entirely depends on finding true love with God and following this through with faithfulness. If not, I think Jesus says the truth. You must be born again.


posted on Feb, 8 2012 @ 07:20 PM
Sounds like your Mum is concerned for your soul. Are you saying thats a bad thing? Though it does sound like she may be a little over zealous but as it is family I can understand her passion.
It is a common trap for newer Christians to fall in to. Christianity teaches that the Spirit leads people to Jesus not words of Christians. The book of Romans deals with that issue

Jesus is God, yes he is the God of the Old Testament as well. The Imago Dei, literary the Image of God. When Christians worship YHWH or Jesus they are worshipping the same God. You imply they are different but that is wrong.
You imply God is not just. Do you believe that if you drink drive and are caught by the police you should be let go free and unpunished? Punishment is just.
The outcome for sin is death, thats the rule. You dont have to accept the rule but that is the rule never the less.
The Old Testament is brutal and violent, you havnt even scratched the surface with the few violent acts listed. God is a destroyer of sin. Sin needs to be punished. That God is Terrible is not denied in scripture
You say God encourages those acts, not entirely true. All those acts are outcomes based on judgement.
Thats a big difference
and as for Ezekiel eating faeces or whoever. I might like a little evidence as I have read Zeke and not seen that part. Cooking on them yeah, but eating them...

The point of the WHOLE Old Testament is to show that the world is stuffed, that humanity on their own will become no more than animals. That destruction and violence are the natural order of existence without God.
Hence the New Testament , hence Jesus

Now, Jesus a love and peace type guy.
No, he is not. Jesus is a Judge. Jesus taught love and peace to His followers, that doesnt mean he isnt a just Judge who will administer sentences. As for a tree, cmon its a tree.
And the Canaanite daughter was healed. Simple facts need to be correct.
Jesus didnt do away with the law, if you think he did then you are wrong. The law still stands, though through Jesus we are not going to be judged by the law that exists for humanity. Christians through Jesus are free through Christs sacrifice in the law.
There are a lot of wishy washy Christians who teach a watered down gospel based on nice warm feelings, but the Gospel doesnt teach everything is good for everybody.
Jesus didnt lie, you miss understood. Just as you miss understood the poo eating or the Canaanite daughter not being healed. Its just wrong
Flesh and blood are eaten literally? What a croc of crap. Jesus was eating bread and drinking wine at the time. They were symbols.
Its clever to have an opinion but silly to have an opinion based on others understandings. Go read the bible, not "evil bible". That is biased, common sense please.

Do I think I am going to heaven? You find one verse to question my belief. One verse that through your ignorance to the Word of God you use to cause confusion.
Well here is another verse from Luke
16:13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”
Substitute money for friends and family and you will see the word hate in context. The word hate doesnt imply what you want it to imply.

You have completely missed the truth of the Gospel of Jesus.

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