My complicated stance on abortion - Not a black/white issue

Someone brought up the topic of abortion on my other forum. So I wrote up this complicated stance on it, which has nothing to do with right or wrong or morality, but with the consequences, logic and effects. Let me know your take on this complicated and sensitive but terrible issue that many women face.

First, some key points:

Don't you don't think forcing a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy is cruel? Think about that. A man can just run away from an unwanted pregnancy, but a woman is stuck with the child. An unwanted pregnancy forces the parents, especially the woman, to endure 20 years of an unpaid job in which she loses all her freedom and becomes enslaved to another. Would you like someone forcing that upon you?

Outlawing abortion is a stupid thing though. It forces women who want to have abortions to try more dangerous and unsafe underground ways of getting it. If they are going to do it, it should be done safely at least. Nowadays, if they do it early, they only have to take a pill like RU486.

Christian pro-lifers lie though, when they say that abortion is dangerous. In reality, childbirth is far more dangerous and results in far more deaths than abortion does.

Science says that a fetus is not a sentient being. It has no mind, thoughts or consciousness.

Watch this George Carlin video on abortion and the sanctity of life. He makes a lot of good points in it that make sense.



But let's suppose that abortion is wrong and murder. So what? Even if it were morally wrong, that doesn't mean that bringing the child into the world is always the "best decision" for everyone involved. You see, the right thing and the best thing are NOT always the same thing. What if you were a poor Filipino mom, and knew that a child you brought in would become a beggar on the street? Would you want to bring that upon a child? Would being forced to endure a 20 year unpaid job that takes away all your freedom and makes you unhappy be the "best thing" for your life?

You see, anyone can stand up and say "Abortion is wrong". It only takes one second to do that. But what if you were faced with this real life dilemma:

1) Go through with an unwanted pregnancy and be forced to endure a 20 year unpaid job and the total loss of your freedom.
2) Do something morally wrong, but it would free you of #1.

What would you do? Many people, even those against abortion, would choose #2, because it would be the best thing for THEM, whether right or wrong. (But they would try to be discreet about their decision of course) You can't always be moral in every situation. You have to be real sometimes and do what's best for everyone involved. No child ought to grow up unwanted. So why force a bad thing for everyone involved? Think about it.

Abortion is a terrible thing. I'd never want anyone to have to do one. It's better to never have to make such a decision. But faced with the two scenarios above, a lot of people would choose #2, not because it's the right thing, but because it's the best thing for everyone involved, logically speaking.

Besides, if murder is wrong, what about all the insects you've killed? And all the animals you've eaten? Do you condone that too? Are all the people who kill cows and chickens murderers too? What about all the bacteria in your body that your immune system kills? Is that morally wrong too? What about all the semen that comes out after masturbation and dies? What about all the fertilized eggs that come out during menstruation and die? Is all that morally wrong too? Are you a mass murderer when you go through menstruation? Where's the consistency here?

I'm not pro-abortion or pro-life, because the issue is not that simple or black and white. But you gotta look at the reality of what's involved here. Anyone can take a moral stance, but when you are facing dire and permanent consequences, you might just decide to do the "best thing", rather than the "right thing".

Abortion is terrible, but so is an unwanted pregnancy. This is one of the worst issues in life you can face. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

PS - Also, on a deeper note: Why does one always have to do what's moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

reply to post by WWu777


I am sorry but your stance is full of morality, because what you are doing is asking "should we do to others what we don't want to be done on us".

just answer this one question

when is alright to kill a baby?

Originally posted by gosseyn
reply to post by WWu777

 

I am sorry but your stance is full of morality, because what you are doing is asking "should we do to others what we don't want to be done on us".

But if you pull your stance from the Bible, it had this to say:
"but where there is no law, neither is there transgression" (Rom: 4:15)

In the history of the right to be able to have a medical procedure, which was the original argument of Rowe vs. Wade, the discussion was simply do we deny people the right to have a medical procedure just because of idealism, rather than medical common sense. This is the 14th amendment. Pretty soon, that will be moot once you allow the government to take this right to make medical decisions away from you. This means all choices on any medical procedure. Think about that for a second.
Also, for the longest time, only the Catholic Church had a stand on this issue, the others left it alone until they found they could make money and sell their religious beliefs on the masses. Where did you think the moral majority came from? Lobbyists that's where. Who's making the money? Lobbyists and mega churches, that's who.
To me, this was the beginning of stripping away our Constitution. Make people fight against it and have them say "We don't need these laws anymore." Sadly it is working.

Erm... OP don't make me laugh. There are tons of facts and information in how abortion is wrong. Oh wait, it was unwanted and forced? Oh that completely gives the right for anyone to kill ? Not to mention it violates human rights, isn't that hypocrite?

Anyway, in this video, all the interviewers are faced with the facts and philosophy behind abortion.Even one woman in the video commited abortion herself. Guess what? THEY ALL changed their opinion! Once they are faced with the reality of logic, they manage to brake free from their brain wash. It's so sad, you see at the beginning of the video, all the ignorance explicitly expressed by those in favor of abortion. Little did they know the man who was about to interview them would use nothing more than logic to finally uncover their blindness.

Originally posted by dezracer
just answer this one question

when is alright to kill a baby?

Science says that a fetus is not a sentient being. It has no mind, feelings or consciousness.

Originally posted by WWu777

A man can just run away from an unwanted pregnancy, but a woman is stuck with the child.

Ever hear of child support, where the man is forced to pay for a child he does not want?

Originally posted by Brenidi14
Erm... OP don't make me laugh. There are tons of facts and information in how abortion is wrong. Oh wait, it was unwanted and forced? Oh that completely gives the right for anyone to kill ? Not to mention it violates human rights, isn't that hypocrite?

Anyway, in this video, all the interviewers are faced with the facts and philosophy behind abortion.Even one woman in the video commited abortion herself. Guess what? THEY ALL changed their opinion! Once they are faced with the reality of logic, they manage to brake free from their brain wash. It's so sad, you see at the beginning of the video, all the ignorance explicitly expressed by those in favor of abortion. Little did they know the man who was about to interview them would use nothing more than logic to finally uncover their blindness.

edit on 26-1-2012 by Brenidi14 because: (no reason given)

Oh please. Don't post a typical anti-abortion video showing graphically disturbing scenes.

If you think abortion is wrong, present some logic behind it.

Plus, even if it is wrong, that doesn't mean that not having one is always the best thing in every situation. Re-read my post above. This is not about right or wrong, but about consequences. The right thing is NOT always the best thing. Don't you see the difference?

You don't think forcing a woman to go through an unwanted pregnancy is cruel? Think about that. A man can just run away from an unwanted pregnancy, but a woman is stuck with the child.

An unwanted pregnancy forces the parents, especially the woman, to endure 20 years of an unpaid job in which she loses all her freedom and becomes enslaved to another. Would you like someone forcing that upon you?

Watch that George Carlin video above. He makes a lot of good points in it.

Besides, if murder is wrong, what about all the insects you've killed? And all the animals you've eaten? Do you condone that too? Are all the people who kill cows and chickens murderers too? What about all the bacteria in your body that your immune system kills? Is that morally wrong too? What about all the semen that comes out after masturbation and dies? What about all the fertilized eggs that come out during menstruation and die? Is all that morally wrong too? Are you a mass murderer when you go through menstruation? Where's the consistency here?

Also, on a deeper note: Why does one always have to do what's moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by WWu777

A man can just run away from an unwanted pregnancy, but a woman is stuck with the child.

Ever hear of child support, where the man is forced to pay for a child he does not want?

Yeah, but it's difficult to enforce, and in some countries, nearly impossible. Many single mothers live without any child support. I'm sure you've met some.

The point is, an unwanted pregnancy is bad for everyone. Everyone loses.

Abortion is terrible, but so is an unwanted pregnancy. Both are terrible. This is one of the worst issues in life you can face. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

Originally posted by WWu777

Originally posted by dezracer
just answer this one question

when is alright to kill a baby?

Science says that a fetus is not a sentient being. It has no mind, feelings or consciousness.

Science is not a sentient being, it has no mind, feelings, or consciousness! Dont you see the irony in your statement? You are saying its okay to abort because science says it has no feelings, but science cant really say anything beause science is a "thing" with no mind or consciousness.

I have actually had experience in this debacle.

My ex was 17 and I was 19, she full well wanted a child because she was under the impression that having a child would fix all of the problems in her life. For a good month her and I went at it, I did not want her having a child as I knew she and I were not able to handle it. Alas, it is not my choice, and it is hers, so she decided to go on with the pregnancy. With or without me.

Now I have some high morals, although I thought it was wrong, I stuck around. I wanted to step up and take responsibility, I wouldn't and couldn't just walk away. So I did, I stepped up, landed a great job, got my our own place, etc. etc. etc.

Now this is where my opinion comes in:

She was so dead set on wanting to have this child, so much so that she thought the child would fix everything wrong in her life, give her something to live for. About 4-5 months in, she started having regrets about following through. She started cheating on me, while I was working 10 hours a day to pay the bills for our ability to survive. She changed into the stereotypical "teen mom" and wanted to party, smoke, etc. all the time.

My son is now 2 years old, since his birth his mother has said on 3 different occasions; "I don't want to be a mom anymore." Only to come around a week or two later to say that she has changed her mind. Luckily, I have him the majority of the time, as she is mentally incapable of handling a child.

My point is, I was pro choice, I saw my son born, and I realized that I would never make someone go through an abortion. But at the same time, if it wasn't for me, my son would, more than likely, be suffering at the hands of his unstable mother. So I guess you could say, I still am pro choice.... The choice that the individual makes over their own body. It isn't my right to dictate what others do, as it isn't the government's right to dictate who can or cannot have an abortion.

Originally posted by filosophia

Originally posted by WWu777

Originally posted by dezracer
just answer this one question

when is alright to kill a baby?

Science says that a fetus is not a sentient being. It has no mind, feelings or consciousness.

Science is not a sentient being, it has no mind, feelings, or consciousness! Dont you see the irony in your statement? You are saying its okay to abort because science says it has no feelings, but science cant really say anything beause science is a "thing" with no mind or consciousness.

You are playing riddles. I am talking about scientific evidence and scientists and biologists themselves. Look up any geriatrics journal, and you will see the evidence.

reply to post by WWu777



ROFL No, sweety don't worry. The video doesn't have any "graphic baby killing" stuff or anything lol Is just the interviewer and the sheeps (pretty much people who attack the interviewer with the same questions and doubts you present in your original post), he completely changed their mind in 180 seconds (again as I already stated, he only used logic, facts and philosophy).

You should give it a try since he basically summaries what you want and expect from people to respond in your thread...

reply to post by WWu777


you say its not a black white issue but you are only in favor of abortion as the best thing not necessarily the right thing, so I'd say you are making it black and white. You say maybe abortion is wrong, but then you follow this up with "so what?" so that belies your support of a non black/white mentality. Try to make an argument in favor of life, then you will sound more non-biased.

Originally posted by Brenidi14
reply to post by WWu777

 

ROFL No, sweety don't worry. The video doesn't have any "graphic baby killing" stuff or anything lol Is just the interviewer and the sheeps (pretty much people who attack the interviewer with the same questions and doubts you present in your original post), he completely changed their mind in 180 seconds (again as I already stated, he only used logic, facts and philosophy).

You should give it a try since he basically summaries what you want and expect from people to respond in your thread...

edit on 26-1-2012 by Brenidi14 because: (no reason given)

I wonder if those people are actors. But it's a Christian propaganda video right, with the typical circular Christian logic?

Did you know that Christian pro-lifers lie when they say that abortion is dangerous? It's far safer than childbirth, which kills far more women than abortions do.

reply to post by WWu777


science is in no way absolute, and even if a million biologists agree on something that does not necessarily make it truth.

I don't think any law should be based on religious ideology and that's what most anti-abortion laws are based on.

They are not based on scientific study but rather on morality that the bible supports.

Women should have the choice of an abortion as long as the fetus is still in the first trimester.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by WWu777

 

science is in no way absolute, and even if a million biologists agree on something that does not necessarily make it truth.

True, but a million Christians agreeing on something doesn't make it true either.

There is no evidence that there is some "divine moral code" that applies to all creation.

Originally posted by WWu777

Originally posted by dezracer
just answer this one question

when is alright to kill a baby?

Science says that a fetus is not a sentient being. It has no mind, feelings or consciousness.

The question was, when is it alright to kill a baby, you respond with "science says a fetus has no feelings..."

You dont say it but you imply it: science says we can kill anything that has no sentience. Where in "science" does it say this? it doesnt, which is why you only implied it and did not say it outright. A fetus becomes sentient when it becomes a child, so what is science's statement on that? Nothing, since science can not moralize. And I dont even buy this statement about a fetus not having sentience, it has a heartbeat very young, so unless you abort within days of becoming pregnant I think you are using science to make yourself feel better about the abortion, but first off it is not true, secondly you are using science to moralize which is impossible.

Originally posted by WWu777

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by WWu777

 

science is in no way absolute, and even if a million biologists agree on something that does not necessarily make it truth.

True, but a million Christians agreeing on something doesn't make it true either.

There is no evidence that there is some "divine moral code" that applies to all creation.

true, but irrelevant as I am not a Christian. I am a Buddhist/Hindu/Greek Philosopher (I know its complicated but my faith is not black and white)

But on occasion i defend christianity, so I would say that the moral code is the free will of man, which is free to conduct abortions or not. But with every action comes retribution. The more you dismiss a fetus as not worthy of life, the easier it is to believe say, arabs or jews, are not worthy of life. All life is important, that is the only divine moral code I believe in.