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U.S. Churches groups forced to give Birth Control by Government

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posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 04:28 PM
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It is a hospital - - with specific purpose to treat the sick.

It is not a specific place of worship.

I would hate to think employment was based on religious belief. Some employees do not share the belief of the employer - - therefore they can not deny services the employee requires.




posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 



Originally posted by FlyersFan
It has to do with forcing religious organizations to provide health care that provides birth control.


It is not required by law to provide health care to your employees, so the religious organizations are NOT being forced to do anything. Alternatively, if a hospital doesn't want to offer a health plan with birth control, they could devise another way to provide health care to their employees (besides an insurance plan) or decide not to provide coverage at all.



The Catholic hospitals. Their religion dictates no artificial birth control and no abortion.


If a religion dictates that they don't USE birth control, then an individual Catholic shouldn't use it. But they can't force their employees to practice their religion. They have had too much control in the past and stripping away that control feels like they're losing some freedom, but I assure you, they are free to practice their religion. They just can't control others. Controlling others in NOT freedom.



The whole point of a 'Catholic' hospital is to provide a place for patients to receive their health care, and for workers to work, in a CATHOLIC environment and in a place that follows church teaching.


I wouldn't know the point of a Catholic hospital, nor do I particularly care. I KNOW they don't discriminate based on religion in their hiring, because they legally cannot. If people want to go there for religions reasons, more power to them. I doubt the idea that their nurse is getting birth control through an insurance provider is going to mess with anyone's freedom.


It's actually the law stamping on the rights of freedom of religion.


You haven't answered: What freedom is being stamped on? The right to restrict birth control from their employees, based on religion???



So are you going to have the law force Jewish restaruants to provide bacon and pork chops because the eatery down the street from them has those things on their menu?


No. It's an entirely different situation. The hospital is not being forced to provide ANYTHING. They CHOOSE to offer health insurance to their employees. Health insurance provides preventative care to their clients.

If the employees of that Jewish restaurant want some preventative medical care, I support their insurance company providing it.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
It is a hospital - - with specific purpose to treat the sick.

.... in a Catholic atmosphere and within the guidelines of the Catholic church.

I would hate to think employment was based on religious belief.

No one said that.

Some employees do not share the belief of the employer - - therefore they can not deny services the employee requires.


- The potential employee knows it's a Catholic hospital run by the religious requirements of the Catholic church. If they don't like it .. they can go elsewhere to work.

- 'Birth control' paid for by the insurance company is NOT a 'service the employee requires'. Its' a benefit that the CATHOLIC hospital can not proivde or else it is no longer a CATHOLIC hospital.


edit on 1/22/2012 by FlyersFan because: fixed quote



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 04:53 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It is not required by law to provide health care to your employees, so the religious organizations are NOT being forced to do anything.

From the opening post -

The Obama administration on Friday ruled that religiously affiliated nonprofit organizations, including hospitals and universities, will have to offer birth-control coverage to women employees but gave the organizations an extra year to comply




If a religion dictates that they don't USE birth control, ...

No .. read again ... the Catholic faith requires that Catholics not use birth control, not get abortions, and not participate or promote these in any manner whatsoever. It's not just them using it ... they can't have anything to do with them.


But they can't force their employees to practice their religion.

You've got it a bit backwards. People who want to be employees of the CATHOLIC hospital have accept what the hospital gives as benefits - benefits that are based on the CATHOLIC faith. At no point does the Catholic hospital force women not to use birth control or become Catholic ... thats silly. They are just saying they won't participate in providing them with it .. even not providing it second hand by paying for the insurance to get it. That's not forcing someone to practice Catholicism, the person can still go on their own and get their own birth control. It's just that the hospital won't have anything to do with it.

They but I assure you, they are free to practice their religion.

Sorry, but your 'assurance' is based on not understanding Catholicism. The CATHOLIC hospital would not be practicing it's religion and would be held back from it's purpose - providing healthcare in a CATHOLIC setting following CATHOLIC doctrine - if it was forced to provide insurance that provides paid for birth control.

They just can't control others. Controlling others in NOT freedom.

Kinda off topic. No one is withholding freedom from employees to go get birth control. It's just that it wont be paid for by the hospital paying insurance. I think you are really throwing wild pitches here ...


I wouldn't know the point of a Catholic hospital, nor do I particularly care.

You should. It's gets to the whole heart of the matter of freedom of religion and of the government stepping on those freedoms. Read up. You may be athiest and not like the Catholic church, but in order to say that you are for religious freedom FOR EVERYONE, ya' really oughta' understand the basics of why this law would be against freedom of religion.


doubt the idea that their nurse is getting birth control through an insurance provider is going to mess with anyone's freedom.

You've missed the entire reason because you 'don't care' about the point of a Catholic hospital. Again - providing birth control, even second hand, is AGAINST THE CATHOLIC FAITH and therefore, forcing them to provide it - even second hand, is forcing them to go against their faith.


You haven't answered: What freedom is being stamped on?

Asked and answered. Re-read. The freedom of the CATHOLIC hospital to be CATHOLIC - which is the whole point it even exists.

The right to restrict birth control from their employees, based on religion???

Silly goose .. no one is restricting them from birth control. They can go out and get it in a million different places. They just can't get it paid for through insurance paid for from a CATHOLIC source.



No. It's an entirely different situation.

Nope. Same thing. You deflected.


The hospital is not being forced to provide ANYTHING.

According to the Opening Post they are going to be forced.

Health insurance provides preventative care to their clients.

You can call birth control 'preventative care' all you want, but the fact that forcing a CATHOLIC hospital to go against it's faith then makes that CATHOLIC hospital no longer CATHOLIC ... and that's stepping on their religious freedom.
edit on 1/22/2012 by FlyersFan because: fixed quote



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by anthonygillespie2012
 


I'm getting a little sick and tired of the patriotic sheep that "baaaa" every time they see something they think is anti-American.

Why don't you concentrate on the topic instead? Or is that too hard?



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by vogon42
 


I am an American and I have a right to speak about my country however I'd like. You don't like it? Find something other than labeling me as "anti-American". That just shows that you don't have a good counterpoint.
edit on 22-1-2012 by The Sword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
- The potential employee knows it's a Catholic hospital run by the religious requirements of the Catholic church. If they don't like it .. they can go elsewhere to work.


How pathetic. With a shortage of qualified medical personal - - to put doctrine over the best professional care for patients.

Your response is exactly what I expected.


- 'Birth control' paid for by the insurance company is NOT a 'service the employee requires'. Its' a benefit that the CATHOLIC hospital can not proivde or else it is no longer a CATHOLIC hospital.



BS. What's between an employee and the insurance company is none of the hospital's business.

The hospital itself is not providing anything.
edit on 22-1-2012 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 07:37 PM
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Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by anthonygillespie2012
 


I'm getting a little sick and tired of the patriotic sheep that "baaaa" every time they see something they think is anti-American.

Why don't you concentrate on the topic instead? Or is that too hard?


Sorry your sick and tired of patriotic Americans, I guess your idea view is to be a defenseless sheep against outside intruders To hell with the original constitution of the founding fathers, right?



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 12:59 AM
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reply to post by anthonygillespie2012
 


Why don't you learn how to use punctuation before you post again?

Whatever happened to DENY IGNORANCE?

The sheeple dragged us to this point and if they had their way, we'd be over the edge already.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 01:19 AM
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Originally posted by anthonygillespie2012

U.S. Churches groups forced to give Birth Control by Government


us.m.yahoo .com

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Obama administration on Friday ruled that religiously affiliated nonprofit organizations, including hospitals and universities, will have to offer birth-control coverage to women employees but gave the organizations an extra year to comply.
(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:


Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
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edit on 21-1-2012 by anthonygillespie2012 because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-1-2012 by anthonygillespie2012 because: (no reason given)


And you think this is a BAD thing!? Tell that to the young girl who was raped or a mother with a deformed fetus inside her. Unreal! Split Infinity



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 01:36 AM
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Get ready to pay.

This morning President Obama called New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan to break the news.

Secretary of Health and Human Services and pro-abortion Catholic Kathleen Sebelius just announced that the proposed mandate requiring all insurance plans to pay for contraception, sterilization and some abortion drugs is official -- and Catholics cannot escape.

...and the fig-leaf exemption for religious groups will not be modified, apart from allowing some groups an additional year to comply.

Cardinal-designate Timothy M. Dolan responded minutes ago, saying: “In effect, the president is saying we have a year to figure out how to violate our consciences.”

Beginning August 1, 2012 (less than eight months from today), the insurance premiums we pay, including the insurance premiums paid by Catholics for employees of churches and schools -- will be used to cover drugs and procedures that are in direct conflict with the teachings of our Church.

That's right. Our government will now force us to pay for insurance coverage for birth control, sterilization and even some abortion drugs.

President Obama ignored the organized efforts of Catholics across the country, including bold statements from the Bishops, university presidents (including Notre Dame's Rev. Jenkins), and even his Catholic allies like Sr. Carol Keehan.

Instead, President Obama stood with his real friends -- Planned Parenthood.

Make no mistake, this decision is a direct attack on you, our Church, and the religious liberty of all Americans.

Just yesterday, Pope Benedict XVI addressed the bishops from the United States who were completing their "Ad Limina" visit in Rome. The Holy Father specifically cited the "grave threats" to the freedom of the Church in America, and urged the Catholic community to respond, especially with "an engaged, articulate and well-formed Catholic laity."

He's talking to you and me. The Holy Father's brief address is a must read (link below).

Finally, today marks exactly one year from Inauguration Day. In exactly 12 months, America will welcome a new president, or usher in four more years of Barack Obama and his assault on our liberties. This irony is not lost on us.

We built CatholicVote into a movement to advance the cause of life, family, and freedom. Today's decision is an assault on all three. And it MUST be defeated.

You have our pledge that we will do everything possible to educate and mobilize the Catholic vote in 2012.

For on a day such as this, we realize that elections indeed have consequences.

The Catholic vote must rise up like never before.

Sincerely,

Brian Burch, President
CatholicVote.org



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by colbe
 

Seperation of Church and State. If a person by their own religious beliefs refuses contraception of any kind...that is their buisness. If a person asks for it...it should be made available...no and if's or buts.

Any Hospital reguardless of Religion must as beeing licensed by the state....OBEY THE LAWS!
Split Infinity



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 05:57 AM
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Originally posted by Annee
How pathetic.

Back atchya. Your lack of understanding about the constitutional right of a CATHOLIC hospital to operate within it's religious beliefs is pretty damn pathetic.

With a shortage of qualified medical personal - - to put doctrine over the best professional care for patients.

WRONG. The hospitals still provide the best professional care for patients. Didn't you read the thread? :shk: It's about people who WORK at the hospital not having their birth control paid for by the insurance company that is provided by the hospital. It's about benefits provided workers. And your comment about a shortage of qualified medial personal is completely irrelevant.

Your response is exactly what I expected.

Actually, I expected YOU to be smarter and I expected you'd make an effort to fully understand the situation. My mistake.

BS. What's between an employee and the insurance company is none of the hospital's business.

BS ... it IS the CATHOLIC hospitals business. THEY are the ones doing the providing and they are not allowed to provide something that goes against their religion. What part of the fact that these are CATHOLIC hospitals that are operated and run under the CATHOLIC umbrella don't you get?

The hospital itself is not providing anything

WRONG again. Go back and re-read the thread and educate yourself. The CATHOLIC hospital is providing health care benefits and one of the benefits that they are being pushed to provide is birth control that is paid for - which is against the CATHOLIC religion.


Jeeeze people ... it's not rocket science here. The constitution gives Catholic organizations the right to practice their religion. The Catholic religion says that Catholics are not to engage in birth control or abortion and not to assist anyone else with either of those. To force a CATHOLIC hospital to pay for birth control in health care is against that hospitals religion. THE END.

If people don't like it and are so strongly in their belief that their worker should provide insuranace that pays for birth control then they can go work somewhere else rather than a CATHOLIC hospital. A CATHOLIC hospital is there to be run in a CATHOLIC environment and under the CATHOLIC church umbrella and in a CATHOLIC manner. If people don't want to work there because of this, and the hospitals have to close because people don't want to work there .. then so be it. Then Catholics wouldn't have had to do anything against their faith and capitalism would be the rule of the day.

If you all bemoan that the hospitals would close - and considering that the Catholic hospitals are usually in the poorest neighborhoods and their emergency rooms serve the poor mostly - then you need to leave the Catholic hospitals alone and let them exercise their constitutional right to freedom of religion.

Side note - not that it matters but I don't believe in the Catholics Onanism and think it's just the old OUT BREEDING THE ENEMY tactic. But it's their religion and they can open hospitals under their religious umbrella all they want and run that hospital in a Catholic manner if they wish. It's their RIGHT.

I'm not going to engage in this discussion any more. Obviously there are some people here who scream for equal rights and tolerance for others - such as muslims practicing their religion - but then don't apply the same Constitutional rights to Catholics, and any further attempt at discussion with them would be pointless. Their obstinacy (or plain anti-catholic bigotry) and my having to repeat facts over and over is just a waste of my time. I'M DONE.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 07:11 AM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


The wording in the opening post is incorrect. Hospitals are free to provide health insurance plans or not:



Do I have to provide health insurance to my employees?

The Affordable Care Act does not require employers to provide health insurance for their employees.


healthcare.gov


Originally posted by FlyersFan
You may be athiest and not like the Catholic church, but in order to say that you are for religious freedom FOR EVERYONE, ya' really oughta' understand the basics of why this law would be against freedom of religion.


I understand more about religion than most religious people.
I understand the law, too. A Catholic hospital is a social service provider, not a church.

Religious Freedom and Catholic Health Care



In 2001, 31 percent of Americans received care in a Catholic facility. The Catholic health care system controls more than 11 percent of the nation’s total community hospitals and more than 16 percent of the nation’s total community hospital beds. Nearly 18 percent of all hospitals and 20 percent of all hospital beds in health systems are owned or controlled by the Catholic church. Thus, the Catholic health care system has a significant medical responsibility to millions of Americans.
...
Catholic health care in the US is regulated by the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services (the Directives), which were issued not by doctors, ethicists or regulatory authorities, but by the nation’s Catholic bishops.
...
The problem with this argument is that a social service run by an agency affiliated with the Catholic church is not the same thing as the Catholic church. The Catholic church is provided religious freedom by the US Constitution; its social services are subject to laws and regulations designed to protect consumers.



Originally posted by FlyersFan
The constitution gives Catholic organizations the right to practice their religion.


No, it doesn't. It protects the rights of individuals and churches, not social organizations.



I'm not going to engage in this discussion any more.


That's too bad. But I understand.
edit on 1/23/2012 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 07:33 AM
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If a place of employment takes federal funds, then they have to follow federal guidelines.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by The Sword
 

Where in my post did I refer to you as "anti-american"?

I'm asking what part of America you are referring to. Based on how bad the conditions in the post were described as being, I would guess Central America.
Then again I've not been to South America, so I couldnt say for sure.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 08:22 AM
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I don't know if it was always known but we know now, one form Birth Control, the "pill" is an abortifacient. The fertilized egg, a brand new
person with a soul is kept from attaching to the uterine wall so dies.

God decides life, not us, ever.

In regards to a related subject ~

Obama has done nothing but increase the access to abortion here and overseas since he took office.

+ + +


January 22, 2012
Public



St. Catherine of Siena says: "All praise be to Jesus."

"When you pray, pray that the Blood of Christ's Passion stands between this president and his reelection. Too many innocent lives have been lost due to his policies."


www.holylove.org...



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by colbe
FlyersFan,

I wish people would see God's plan as He has laid it out. All those
thinking oh yes, abortion is evil but there's nothing wrong with
Birth Control. To everybody who misunderstands God's teaching
on birth control. I am not making fun, it's God's choice, He decides
life and death. That's easy.


Would you like to tell us exactly how you know "God's plan"?
Where exactly does God say that abortion is evil?
Belief Systems are and have always been higly irrational.
When the results of anyone's Belief System encroaches upon the lives of other people their rights end.
If they have not the common sense to stop then government has to step in to stop them.
This is where the Constituion should be amended. That "free practice" of relligion is being abused to the detriment of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness of others.

Yes, the world is overpopulated. Yes, the US is overpopulated. We are running out of room for our garbage.
Stuff in the Landfill areas are leaching into the ground water.
Our sewage systems are unable to properly process all that comes into them resulting in much overflow into our rivers, lakes and oceans. ALL of our waterways are polluted. There is no stream, even in the wildest wild that is safe to drink.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 08:55 AM
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reply to post by colbe
 



Originally posted by colbe
God decides life, not us, ever.


If that were true, then religious people would never take any medicines or have operations because "God decides life, not us"...

Here's one for you: I decide whether or not I'm going to have children, NOT you and NOT your God.

Besides, God is irrelevant in this discussion. This is LAW, not religion.



posted on Jan, 23 2012 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by colbe
 



Originally posted by colbe
God decides life, not us, ever.


If that were true, then religious people would never take any medicines or have operations because "God decides life, not us"...

Here's one for you: I decide whether or not I'm going to have children, NOT you and NOT your God.

Besides, God is irrelevant in this discussion. This is LAW, not religion.


Medicine, most often is a good thing. Can't be compared to birth
control and abortion, both involve murder.

God's law is above man's law. It's perfect. Look at man's law, we
can now kill the most innocent in our country. Contraception and abortion,
don't you tire of seeing mostly grey haired folks walking around?


God bless you Benevolent Heretic,


colbe



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