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U.S. Churches groups forced to give Birth Control by Government

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posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by colbe
 


If children are such a blessing, why are so many born into broken homes to irresponsible (or in some cases, non-existent) parents?

American society is full of people who treat children like commodities or expressions of their own sick and twisted views. It doesn't matter if they're a churchie or godless liberal. They're all one and the same when it comes to using their own children as pawns.

If life is so precious, why does war exist?
If life is so precious, why are the poor treated like dirt?
If life is so precious, why don't these religious types flinch when people are blown to bits everyday in Iraq or Aghanistan?




posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I wish more people listened to what you are saying instead of getting all worked up over the fact that others don't share their worship of an invisible deity.

If churches do not want to provide contraceptive services as part of their insurance plans, then they should return any and ALL federal tax dollars that were given to them. Period.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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the separation of church and state is to prevent the church from being corrupted by the government, not the other way around.

i can see it's another violation of the constitution.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by The Sword
 

Questions I've been asking myself for a long while now ...
ATS thread - life is chaotic color


Originally posted by The Sword
... instead of getting all worked up over the fact that others don't share their worship of an invisible deity.

You don't think people have a right to freedom of religion?
You don't think people have a right to freedom FROM the government intruding on their beliefs?



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by randomname
 


Care to provide a source?

Because I see the exact OPPOSITE in the U.S. The churches work hand-in-hand with the government to keep the masses fat and obedient.

NO church should receive a tax break. Many do not deserve it based upon their meddling in political affairs (i:e- asking parishoners to vote for a certain candidate, donating money, etc).



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


You of all people should know that this right is still there.

If a church accepts FEDERAL funds, they are obligated to work with the FEDERAL government on whatever aims/goals it has.

Freedom of religion is low on my list of priorities. Getting religious influences OUT of government is a bigger concern.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 01:41 PM
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Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by colbe
 


If children are such a blessing, why are so many born into broken homes to irresponsible (or in some cases, non-existent) parents?

American society is full of people who treat children like commodities or expressions of their own sick and twisted views. It doesn't matter if they're a churchie or godless liberal. They're all one and the same when it comes to using their own children as pawns.

If life is so precious, why does war exist?
If life is so precious, why are the poor treated like dirt?
If life is so precious, why don't these religious types flinch when people are blown to bits everyday in Iraq or Aghanistan?


Are you in another country? Why are you so anti American? No this is not an anti American discussion and not everyone in America's society is the same.

Every country's society has a problem, don't just say America.
edit on 22-1-2012 by anthonygillespie2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by anthonygillespie2012

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by colbe
 


If children are such a blessing, why are so many born into broken homes to irresponsible (or in some cases, non-existent) parents?

American society is full of people who treat children like commodities or expressions of their own sick and twisted views. It doesn't matter if they're a churchie or godless liberal. They're all one and the same when it comes to using their own children as pawns.

If life is so precious, why does war exist?
If life is so precious, why are the poor treated like dirt?
If life is so precious, why don't these religious types flinch when people are blown to bits everyday in Iraq or Aghanistan?


Are you in another country? Why are you so anti American? No this is not an anti American discussion and not everyone in America's society is the same.

Every country's society has a problem, don't just say America.
edit on 22-1-2012 by anthonygillespie2012 because: (no reason given)


I'm going to guess by this persons lack of specifics, broken homes, and children treated as commodity, they are probably referring to Central America.

I'm going to guess by your posts you are referring not just to North America, but specifically the USA.

I would guess this Sword person is either wanting to blame all of America (North, Central, and South)....or they are just very geographically challenged.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by The Sword
 


Are you aware that America consists of
Canada
USA
Mexico

Guatemala
Honduras
Nicaragua
Costa Rica
Panama

Colombia
Venezuela
Ecuador
Peru
Bolivia
Brazil
Paraguay
Chile
Uruguay
Argentina

If you are throwing out facts about America.....perhaps you should break it down by country.

It appears you are talking about USA, but you bring in stats from ALL of these countries......that distorts the view.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 02:22 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 



Originally posted by FlyersFan
I"m all for secular laws running the country, but the fact is that the laws pushing religious organizations to provide birth control are unconstitutional and interfere with those institutions right to freedom of religion.


It doesn't push religious organizations to provide birth control. This law requires Blue Cross/Blue Shield (and other providers) to include birth control as preventative care with no copay. It has nothing to do with religious organizations providing birth control.

If St. Joseph's Hospital (a religious organization) uses Blue Cross/Blue Shield as their employees' insurance provider, the employees of the hospital will have the option of getting birth control through their insurance.



This is a case where the government is overstepping and interfering with religious freedom.


Whose religious freedom is being interfered with? In this case, St Joseph's Hospital can no longer USE religion to restrict certain medical benefits from their employees. A nurse who takes a job at St. Joseph's should have the same benefits in preventative health care with BCBS as they would working at another hospital or university. It's actually taking religion OUT of the law.



The legislation doesn't have a right to dictate religious beliefs or practices.


It's making health insurance COMPANIES to provide more complete preventative care.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
If someone works at a Catholic hospital and wants birth control covered by their work insurance, then they need to find a job elsewhere. Catholic hospitals are just that ... CATHOLIC ... and therefore it is expected that they will follow Catholic beliefs.


You mean all the employees of a Catholic hospital are practicing Catholics? "It is expected"? Are you serious? That's absurd! You don't have to be a Catholic to work at a Catholic Hospital. Hospitals can't discriminate on the basis of religion.


The plan is to force Catholic hospitals to provide it.


The hospitals don't provide it. The insurance companies do...


Originally posted by FlyersFan
Wouldn't YOU be trampling on the rights of Catholics by forcing them to go against their beliefs?
Forcing them to do that when all you have to do is work elsewhere and leave 'em alone?


Forcing them to do WHAT? What is this forcing Catholics to do?

edit on 1/22/2012 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
You don't think people have a right to freedom of religion?


Freedom of religion is HIGH on my list. But it does not include freedom to discriminate, nor does it include freedom to control other people.



You don't think people have a right to freedom FROM the government intruding on their beliefs?


"Intruding on their beliefs"? What does that mean? They are free to believe whatever they want AND they are free to practice their religion, they just are not free to USE that religion to control the behavior of others.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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some religions don't believe in blood transfusions.....
they're followers, I assume operate businesses all over the US.
so, should those business owners also be allowed to eliminate blood transfusions from healthcare plans?
how about any business owner, maybe they have a problem with the cancer treatments (I imagine that if they could have a stipulaton doing this, it would save them some money!!! well, maybe the business owners should be able to pick and chose just what they desire the insurance they offer should include, or not???



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by colbe
The Church has not changed on her teachings.
Contraception is an intrinsic evil. God decides life and death.

the vatican has changed its opinion on birth control vatican changes on birth control

and I think its safe to say that procreation is a matter of timing between 2 healthy subjects regardless of species



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by The Sword
 

I'd definately say that if a church or church based hospital wants to run things based on their beliefs, then they shouldn't be given full government funding. In some places, the church based hospitals are in the very worst parts of the city and provide health care that the city hospitals don't and therefore cutting federal funding would hurt more people than help .... but I totally hear you about the funding. If the funding comes with strings attached .. that the hospitals have to provide something that goes against their religious beliefs, then the hospitals should turn down the funding .. or at least a portion of the funding that doesn't interfere with getting the city-folk their emergency room care ...

I definately hear ya' ...



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 03:53 PM
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Well what do they expect. When you sign the 501c3 contract you are agreeing to follow their rules and they tend to revise them regularly.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This law requires Blue Cross/Blue Shield (and other providers) to include birth control as preventative care with no copay. It has nothing to do with religious organizations providing birth control.

It has to do with forcing religious organizations to provide health care that provides birth control.
It's still forcing a religious organization to do something against it's religion.

Whose religious freedom is being interfered with?

The Catholic hospitals. Their religion dictates no artificial birth control and no abortion. The Catholic faith dictates that no catholic can assist in either of these. If the hospital provides birth control through the health care, then they are indeed assisting with that and it's against their religion.


In this case, St Joseph's Hospital can no longer USE religion to restrict certain medical benefits from their employees.

The whole point of a 'Catholic' hospital is to provide a place for patients to receive their health care, and for workers to work, in a CATHOLIC environment and in a place that follows church teaching. You say they are using religion to restrict ... but the fact the whole point of the Catholic hospital is to provide it based on religion. If you take the religion out of it .. then it's no longer a 'catholic' hospital.


A nurse who takes a job at St. Joseph's should have the same benefits in preventative health care with BCBS as they would working at another hospital or university.

No. A nurse who takes a job at ST. Josephs knows ahead of time that the hospital is CATHOLIC and that the position there would not include birth control being provided by the insurance. If that nurse feels so strongly that he or she wants birth control paid for by employee provided insurance, then that nurse can go work in a different hospital or in a medical office. No one is forcing them to take a job at a Catholic hospital. This isn't China where jobs are dictated to everyone.


It's actually taking religion OUT of the law.

It's actually the law stamping on the rights of freedom of religion.

So are you going to have the law force Jewish restaruants to provide bacon and pork chops because the eatery down the street from them has those things on their menu?



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But it does not include freedom to discriminate, nor does it include freedom to control other people.

That's what you are doing ... trying to control the Catholics and stop them from practicing their faith.
Their faith requires them not to participate in any manner in abortion or artificial birth control.
Providing the artifician birth control through the insurance would be participating in it.



"Intruding on their beliefs"? What does that mean? They are free to believe whatever they want AND they are free to practice their religion, they just are not free to USE that religion to control the behavior of others.

They are NOT free to practice their religion if they are forced to provide artificial birth control through the insurance. It's just that simple. Catholics are NOT ALLOWED to participate in that in any manner whatsoever. And if someone agrees to work in a CATHOLIC hospital then they are agreeing to the rules. If they don't like it or they think it's 'too controling' .. they can go work somewhere else. No one is forcing them to work there.


Again ... would you force a Jewish deli to carry pork chops because the other delis that aren't Jewish did? It would be pretty damn silly ... when you walk into a JEWISH deli you know what will and won't be served. Ditto for a CATHOLIC hospital. The whole purpose is to provide health care in a CATHOLIC setting following the CATHOLIC church. If someone doesn't like it ... then go somewhere else and let the Catholics practice their faith as the Constitution allows.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by The Sword
 


"If life is so precious, why does war exist?"

Because.. people who claim to care about the sanctity of life are hypocrites.

Republican & democrat party leader sanctioned retro-active abortion of grown children is ok.. cheered even, depending on which colored cloth on a stick the killers waive around.



posted on Jan, 22 2012 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You mean all the employees of a Catholic hospital are practicing Catholics?

I didn't say that. Go back and re-read what I said. It's a CATHOLIC hospital that will be run by CATHOLIC standards and provide health care in a CATHOLIC environment. CATHOLIC CATHOLIC CATHOLIC ... as is their constitutional right. If it says CATHOLIC on the hospital, then common sense says it's going to be run in a CATHOLIC manner. That's the whole point of a CATHOLIC hospital. Get it now?

What religion the worker happens to be is irrelevant. If their religion says they can use birth control, and they want it paid for by insurance, then they can go work elsewhere. They don't have a right to step on the rights of the CATHOLIC hospital to have it run in a CATHOLIC manner. They are free not to take a job at a place where they don't like the benefits. It's very simple.


The hospitals don't provide it. The insurance companies do...

Go back and re-read what I said. TRY to get it ... I don't know how to be much plainer than I am with this.
Again - Catholics are NOT allowed to participate in any way with artificial birth control or abortion. For a CATHOLIC hospital to provide access to these things would be going against their religion. It doesn't matter if the birth control comes from the insurance company .. the fact that the hospital provides the insurance that provides the birth control makes them culpable in the eyes of the church.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Forcing them to do WHAT? What is this forcing Catholics to do?

It's forcing them to participate and promote something that is against their religion and that they are forbidden to do.



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