Originally posted by esther
Please let me know what version you found that in.

The Pilate citation I quoted is from the rock opera, "Jesus Christ Superstar" which is surely inspired by God. I like to think of it as the Book of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice, don't you?

I have some other references to the same quote, but they are from dubious sources.
.

Originally posted by esther

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Does Masonry as an organization portend that any metaphysical concepts are absolutely true?

Spoken best by Pontius Pilate: "What is Truth?"
(John 18:37, 38)
Pilate, therefore, said unto him, "Art thou a king, then?" Jesus answered, "Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice." Pilate saith unto him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, "I find in him no fault at all."


Who can say what the truth is, Jamuhn? If they said, "Yes, we have the only truth there is...", would you believe them if you didn't see it demonstrated for yourself? And even then, if they did demonstrate it, would you trust your senses that they had not deceived you? Could you ever really KNOW for sure... and even then, not doubt that you were simply wrong?
Find your own truth, as it applies to you and only you. Then believe in it.
esther.
.

Though my question has already been answered, I think you and some others are looking into this too much.

An example for what there would be: something like the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I'm interested whether there exists ancient Egyptian texts, like the Book of Thoth.

I don't need anyone to answer those statements though.

And I don't need a lesson in philosophy, cause that wasn't my question.

Thanks for your time.

Jam

Beautifully said, esther . . . .

My advice to Jahmun: Become a Mason, advance through the degrees, pursue the ritual and learning aspect especially, and by the end of the road, you'll know it.

Wow, all this curiosity. Yet, how many applications for Masonry will actually arise from this curiosity? Let's see just how serious everyone is about discovering Masonic "secrets."

SIGN UP . . . . .or, you'll just continue to waste time and demonstrate to everyone that you're not really serious. In that case, might I suggest www.disney.com

[edit on 13-9-2004 by LTD602]

Yes...I don't join things where I don't know what I'm getting into. Thanks for the sarcastic comment, I'll take that into consideration when I decide whether I many want to join.

[edit on 13-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Hey Jahmun . . what part of SECRET SOCIETY don't you get ??

All you have to really do is attend a few open houses !! Call a Lodge in your area and arrange a meeting. Ask your questions. Absoluteley no one will pressure you into joining. Just do some face-to-face field research.

Don't tell me that after all this, you're surprised when you finally get sarcasm.

OR

If you don't feel you know enough, and can no longer get satisfactory answers, and this turns you off, then . . . . stop asking, or ask elsewhere, or simply don't become a Mason.

No, I prefer other types of humor.

But, yea, I'm done with this thread to pursue my answers elsewhere, it's hard getting straight answers and getting your questions straight on the internet. I'll find my answers more locally, thanks.

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

Originally posted by esther
Sorry. Thought I was contributing in an attempt to help you out. Won't make that mistake again, I assure you.


Somebody remind me again why I bother?


If I could slam the door on my way out, I would. Real nice, this place.

esther.

.

I became really frustrated when I didn't find my answers, and it was a mistake that it took it out on you.

I like your quote, I really do, but I like things that can fit into place. It's a vice of mine that I ignore inspiration when it's in my face. The habit isn't very efficient either. I bet I look for that little push in the future, and wonder where to look. And all the time, it was in my face in this moment, but I chose to ignore it.

All too often, I have to put myself into place, for my good as well as others. What else can I say, I seem to run the track of muddy waters everday.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Oh yea, I'm not asking for details. I was just curious if there are secrets reserved for the initiates in this manner. Do you break an oath of secrecy if you acknowledge a secret exists? I wouldn't think so.

You know the funny thing about questions like this? I we say yes, you won't believe us, and if we say no, you won't believe us, so why bother answering?



Join a lodge and find out...

Originally posted by Byrd

The tales about the ancientness of the order (which does NOT hold up, by the way) was similar to many claims by other organizations at about the same time. There weren't any secret and mysterious documents handed around and while the old lodge books are interesting, there's nothing that's unusual in them.

It's kind of standard "secret society" stuff and initiations.

There is only one truth-

-what remains when all else is removed.-

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Originally posted by Byrd

The tales about the ancientness of the order (which does NOT hold up, by the way) was similar to many claims by other organizations at about the same time. There weren't any secret and mysterious documents handed around and while the old lodge books are interesting, there's nothing that's unusual in them.

It's kind of standard "secret society" stuff and initiations.

There is only one truth-

-what remains when all else is removed.-

That pretty much sums up occam's razor. Pretty good answer

I just kind of wish you understood it as the argument you just posted pretty much demolishes everything else you have posted.

Originally posted by theron dunn

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Oh yea, I'm not asking for details. I was just curious if there are secrets reserved for the initiates in this manner. Do you break an oath of secrecy if you acknowledge a secret exists? I wouldn't think so.

You know the funny thing about questions like this? I we say yes, you won't believe us, and if we say no, you won't believe us, so why bother answering?



Join a lodge and find out...

Ok, mr pyschic, what I thinkin of right now, yea, you're right, you are. Why don't you pay attention next time instead of spouting off your mouth?

[edit on 14-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by theron dunn

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Oh yea, I'm not asking for details. I was just curious if there are secrets reserved for the initiates in this manner. Do you break an oath of secrecy if you acknowledge a secret exists? I wouldn't think so.

You know the funny thing about questions like this? I we say yes, you won't believe us, and if we say no, you won't believe us, so why bother answering?



Join a lodge and find out...

Ok, mr pyschic, what I thinkin of right now, yea, you're right, you are. Why don't you pay attention next time instead of spouting off your mouth?

Ooooohhhhh, temper temper temper...

Get those emotions under control there... you criticize us day and night, and then ask a... well, silly question, and when I point it out, kindly too, I might add, you get all testy with me...

seems kinda foolish, doncha think?

I mean, really.

Originally posted by theron dunn

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Originally posted by theron dunn

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Oh yea, I'm not asking for details. I was just curious if there are secrets reserved for the initiates in this manner. Do you break an oath of secrecy if you acknowledge a secret exists? I wouldn't think so.

You know the funny thing about questions like this? I we say yes, you won't believe us, and if we say no, you won't believe us, so why bother answering?



Join a lodge and find out...

Ok, mr pyschic, what I thinkin of right now, yea, you're right, you are. Why don't you pay attention next time instead of spouting off your mouth?

Ooooohhhhh, temper temper temper...

Get those emotions under control there... you criticize us day and night, and then ask a... well, silly question, and when I point it out, kindly too, I might add, you get all testy with me...

seems kinda foolish, doncha think?

I mean, really.

Let's see how I interpret this:

Deny Yourself, Deny Yourself, Suppress Yourself, Suppress Yourself,

Exaggeration, Exaggeration, Lack of empathy, Lack of empathy lol

Forced ideals

no i don't

I can say it too, "I mean, c'mon."

------------------------------------------------------

There is a difference between being straight-forward and letting the bitterness pour out while trying to cover it up with smilie-faces.

P.S. I thought you would have known I wasn't a Mason, I mean, isn't fairly obvious since I am asking such "silly" questions.

Why don't we just take this a step further so you can say what you really meant, the question is stupid, right?

Well, let me ask you, why would I want to join a frat where I would read, hear, and think the same hum-drum stuff I do everyday anyway.

"I mean, really." Can we get some excitement up in this lodge?

[edit on 14-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Let's see how I interpret this:

Deny Yourself, Deny Yourself, Suppress Yourself, Suppress Yourself,

Exaggeration, Exaggeration, Lack of empathy, Lack of empathy lol

Forced ideals

no i don't

I can say it too, "I mean, c'mon."

Actually, you asked a silly question. I pointed it out, and now you are stamping your little feet in a fit of temper... doesn't that seem a little... petty? I pointed out a simple truth.

Get over yourself. this is only an internet forum, and I did answer your question. You criticize us constantly... what, did you seriously think that we would just lay it all out for you on a platter?

Sheesh.

------------------------------------------------------

There is a difference between being straight-forward and letting the bitterness pour out while trying to cover it up with smilie-faces.

Ohh, nice ad hominem... I have no bitterness, I was actually pointing out the silliness of the question, as if the secrets of life would be provided on silver slaver for the asking... is ANYTHING worth having simply... given away?

P.S. I thought you would have known I wasn't a Mason, I mean, isn't fairly obvious since I am asking such "silly" questions.

That, my friend, was EXACTLY my point. You attack masons, and then ask this silly little naive question as if you seriously expected some on of us would say: Why, yes, of course, we DO have all kinds of secret knowldge that YOU CAN'T HAVE...

Get real here.

Why don't we just take this a step further so you can say what you really meant, the question is stupid, right?

NOPE! there are NO silly questions. You attack us, deride us, laugh at us and denigrate our reason for existence, and then you ask a somewhat naive question... as IF the answer would be: Why yes, yes we do... followed by a loud pregnant silence. I mean, read my answer.

If I say yes, and then nothing else, you condemn us... if I say no, we don't, then you don't believe us and condemn us (as you have been doing), so were is the... oh, I don't know, REASON, perhaps, that we would give you an answer? Do you often spit on folk and then expect them to show you the secrets of the universe?

I believe the answer to everything was... 42, right?

Well, let me ask you, why would I want to join a frat where I would read, hear, and think the same hum-drum stuff I do everyday anyway.

"I mean, really." Can we get some excitement up in this lodge?

Not quite the same thing at all, and you well know it. See what I mean? You denigrate, and then have the... audacity (I beleive that is the polite word for what I am thinking...) to ask for a favor?

Knowledge, especially self knowledge, must be earned and worked for... it is not given away... especially to folks that are so negative.

Sorry if my answer disappoints, but really, after being so negative, what did you expect, the offered hand of friendship, the keys to my car, my daughters hand in marraige, the secrets of my fraternity?

[edit on 14/9/04 by theron dunn]

This whole crap started because you want to pretend you know me and others. Start by taking a long look at yourself in the mirror bud.

Like I said before, if you were paying attention, I was just asking for a yes or no answer, NO DETAILS. I have talked to masons outside of ATS who have hinted at something different. And no, you didn't answer squat except for giving a sarcastic comment.

You know what they say, fight fire with fire. You try to tell me who I am, I tell you what I think you are. I am not the one portending to have all the answers...anywhere, as you seem to think you have.

I don't understand why you think I have been attacking you. It's happened before, then stopped altogether. If you don't want to answer me, then by all means ignore me.

If you think I'm going to lay down and start "prring," you are sorely mistaken. As you will not sit down, neither will I.

And, through all that incessant rambling, you have constantly reiterated the fact that YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MY INTENTIONS ARE.

I ask, how can I denigrate that which I don't know? I can't. The fact is, I asked a question to understand your frat better. Do I talk too rough for you? Maybe I shouwld tawlk likea tree year old sow you can undastand betta?

And, I didn't ask for crap from you. This thread was over when I said I'll look for answers from local Masons. It seems at this late time, you have become bored and are looking for a fight.

It seems you think that I am talking about Masonry, when in fact, I am just talking about you. I have talked with other Masons who I enjoy spending time with, and I can safely say you don't speak for them.

C'mon keep talking, I'm starting to enjoy this, let's see how many days we can keep this up, shall we?

BTW...there are silly questions or there aren't, I remain confused about what you are trying to say in this regard.

[edit on 14-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by theron dunn

Sorry if my answer disappoints, but really, after being so negative, what did you expect, the offered hand of friendship, the keys to my car, my daughters hand in marraige, the secrets of my fraternity?

Seems to me that instead of bouncing around and 'kind of pretending' there is something this type of retort is uncalled for unless frustration is the goal.

Masonry has no knowledge relating to morality that is either unique nor commonly unavailable.

To say otherwise is untrue.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Masonry has no knowledge relating to morality that is either unique nor commonly unavailable.

To say otherwise is untrue.

You are in complete agreement with Albert Pike. I am pleased to see that you are coming around to Pike's way thinking.
.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
This whole crap started because you want to pretend you know me and others. Start by taking a long look at yourself in the mirror bud.

Hey, I don't know you at all, and never pretended to. I am simply going on what YOU HAVE POSTED IN THE PAST. Based on your negative reactions and overall over the top reaction to someone pointing out the obvious, I was not wrong in my assessment of you.

Like I said before, if you were paying attention, I was just asking for a yes or no answer, NO DETAILS. I have talked to masons outside of ATS who have hinted at something different. And no, you didn't answer squat except for giving a sarcastic comment.

I was paying attention, though I like the ad hominem defamation... I did not offer details, I simply pointed out that the question was without merit...

You know what they say, fight fire with fire. You try to tell me who I am, I tell you what I think you are. I am not the one portending to have all the answers...anywhere, as you seem to think you have.

Well, you certainly have misread my post, but that seems to be de rigeur... this is like the fourth or fifth time you have reacted so angrily... you might want to get hold of yourself and examine WHY everything makes you so angry... try reading what I wrote without the anger cloud, eh?

I don't understand why you think I have been attacking you. It's happened before, then stopped altogether. If you don't want to answer me, then by all means ignore me.

Well, I COULD ignore you, but that seems counterproductive to the stated purpose of this forum, which is to DENY IGNORANCE. YOU have been pretty angry and over the top in your response to a simple observation... you might want to examine your replies, because they have been pretty vituperative...

If you think I'm going to lay down and start "prring," you are sorely mistaken. As you will not sit down, neither will I.

Sit down, stand up, lay on your side, I don't care... I simply don't see where all this angst is coming from. Have you actually read my post, or are you just simply reacting to a Mason NOT answering your question?

And, through all that incessant rambling, you have constantly reiterated the fact that YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MY INTENTIONS ARE.

Bud, I don't CARE what your motives are. I simply made an observation. You might want to actually try to make a point here instead of engaging me on silliness. This is the SECOND time you have overreacted to a post of mine, and carried it on for, what, six back and forths now, over a observation. Get HOLD of yourself, for g-d's sake.

I ask, how can I denigrate that which I don't know? I can't. The fact is, I asked a question to understand your frat better. Do I talk too rough for you? Maybe I shouwld tawlk likea tree year old sow you can undastand betta?

But, that's how you have always posted, isn't it? Like a slow three year old?

Ok, so now if we're completely done with the ad hominem attacks, do you have a point to make, or are you just so enamored of your own voice that you need to drag this on longer?

And, I didn't ask for crap from you. This thread was over when I said I'll look for answers from local Masons. It seems at this late time, you have become bored and are looking for a fight.

Bored, looking for a fight? No... I saw your question and tried to make an observation respecting the request for information. YOU have gone WAY over the top on this, .. and I just don't understand your anger.

It seems you think that I am talking about Masonry, when in fact, I am just talking about you. I have talked with other Masons who I enjoy spending time with, and I can safely say you don't speak for them.

Nope, each mason only speaks for himself, and I am truly sorry if you don't like the answer I gave you to your general question. It seemed a reasonable observation at the time, but your anger and over the top response to it certainly has given me pause...

C'mon keep talking, I'm starting to enjoy this, let's see how many days we can keep this up, shall we?

Oh, I am just about ready to put you on ignore... I am here to have adult conversations, not to deal with childish temper tantrums...

BTW...there are silly questions or there aren't, I remain confused about what you are trying to say in this regard.

there are no STUPID questions. There are silly questions. I hope I have cleared that up for you.

If this thread is just about done, maybe we can move on to a serious issue?

Angry, no. Frustrated yes, by the lack of success of this thread, but I think it's out of my system now lol.

[edit on 14-9-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Masonry has no knowledge relating to morality that is either unique nor commonly unavailable.

To say otherwise is untrue.

You are in complete agreement with Albert Pike. I am pleased to see that you are coming around to Pike's way thinking.
.

I am NOT coming around-

Pike was a self-confessed plagerist.

What I posted about morality predates Pike.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Pike was a self-confessed plagerist (sic).

This is another of the many outright lies by Gadfly, and Pike certainly never "confessed" to being a plagiarist. When you acknowledge that you're using other people's material, you're not plagiarizing. It's called quoting.

In his introduction to Morals and Dogma, Pike makes clear right away that about half of the book is a mixture of quotes and insights from previous writers on the subjects of philosophy, religion, history, and science. He then mentions that, since the book is only meant to serve as a source of Lectures for the degrees of the Scottish Rite, and thus was not intended to be a subject of academic pursuit outside of the fraternity, he has not used a formal bibliography.
Again, it's only plagiarism if you claim another's work is your own, which Pike clearly did not do.

Fiat Lvx.



[edit on 14-9-2004 by Masonic Light]