In what order will these men be saved?

reply to post by sacgamer25


It is a mystery for sure. I don't think my interpretation contradicts the verses. It is clear from scripture that all revelation is to all generations. We need to be here to see this. All eyes will see. A typical Christian already believes that we were born once and then we can be born again into new life with Christ on the Day of the Lord. This is two births into life. To contradict this, a person can read Hebrews 9:27.

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

This is very true. A the soul wears a person as a vessel. The vessel dies and is judged, but the temple is still there. The temple is the soul. We are behind the veil as the person. There is a final judgment after Christ returns and reigns for 1000 years. We wait for this second coming. Where do we wait? Finish the chapter in Hebrews with the final verse.

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The union we accomplish with God is through Christ. Until we are Holy, we do not possess the Holy Spirit (Consciousness) of God. We are behind a veil until we see face to face.

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

In other words, we are not with God in fact here. We are apart. Separated. Until we gain union through Christ, we are dead in our sin. Are we here now? Yes. That is separate from God. All 7 billion souls are here now to see Christ return.

Zach 12

"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Revelation 1

7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[c]
So shall it be! Amen.

Has he come yet? No. Where are we now? Separated. Who waits for Christ? All of us. When do we rise to new life? On the last day. When is the last day?

Adam to Abraham 2000 years (Father) 2 days
Abraham to Jesus 2000 years (Son) 2 days
Jesus to Now (Holy Spirit) 2 Days

Day of rest 1000 Last Day of the Lord

As yourself this. When did Christ arrive? When the age was completed or when it started? When does the Holy Spirit come? Beginning of the age or end? When are all three here face to face as fact? Day of the Lord. Beginning or End? Who is waiting?

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I agree with you. i do believe that if it were possible to correctly count 6000 years from creation we could know the end times. There is just the problem with a few small gaps. I believe the end will happen in our lifetime.

It is the saints who are waiting. And yes if we are correct that Christ must come back in our lifetime, or better our generation because none of us our promised tomorrow, all 7 billion will see. This first time the covenant was with Israel so he was only revealed to them directly. This time the covenant is for all mankind so all will see him come.

It is also possible that the bible is quite directly speaking to us today. So yes if Christ does come in our generation then I believe that it is imperative to believe because I believe that the signs will speak for themselves and to deny them would be truly to deny God.

We see much the same but we do differ on the bit about salvation. I believe that the bible provides a way for the unbeliever to gain salvation. Since they likely never heard the true message, because the church simply doesn’t teach the truth, and quite honestly they don’t even resemble the New Testament church, they will be judged as gentiles.

I believe that unbelievers who die prior to the second coming will indeed be judged as gentiles. At the second coming all will be judged based on their refusal to believe in what is right in front of their eyes.

reply to post by sacgamer25


That you believe you must accept the entire bible. Wasnt spoken or taught by Jesus doesnt apply to me.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Jesus quotes from the Old Testament and claims that he is the promised messiah.

On the Road to Emmaus, Luke claims, Jesus explained to two disciples that the Old Testament talked about him but there are no actual scriptures cited in Luke's telling and this seems to be a later addition to the Jesus legend and not something derived from the tradition of Jesus sayings.
Luke was probably a Roman and collected information as it migrated into his vicinity and created a fictionalized version of Jesus, claiming, as part of his literary style, that he interviewed the actual participants.

reply to post by sacgamer25

We see much the same but we do differ on the bit about salvation. I believe that the bible provides a way for the unbeliever to gain salvation. Since they likely never heard the true message, because the church simply doesn’t teach the truth, and quite honestly they don’t even resemble the New Testament church, they will be judged as gentiles.

I believe that unbelievers who die prior to the second coming will indeed be judged as gentiles. At the second coming all will be judged based on their refusal to believe in what is right in front of their eyes.

I see it this way: The process is being born again. Right now, the nations are deceived. Clearly, this is not an intention of God for the lost sheep. When Christ returns, those who have already found salvation and are humble will find their glorified bodies first. We will then rule the nations with Christ. The nations will still be there in an unglorified state.

The picture is given to us in the exodus out of Egypt. Once we are taken out of captivity, Egypt will be no more. Hermes gave the prophecy for Egypt, but the Bible gives the parallel in Revelation. Here is the thread I did on the Hermes prophecy. LINK Here is the thread I did on the parallel of the exodus and the culmination of the age from Revelation. LINK

With the end of the last age, Christ came but the fig tree was not bearing fruit. The events and setup for that age will happen again in our age. We are there currently. The question is, what happens after the remnant leaves for the promised land. This can be seen in the parallels between the last 2000 years and the next 1000. Workers were sent back to Egypt later to recover what could be saved. The nations will still be there, but will be ruled by Christ. No deception. The earth will bloom again and men will be reborn. Under the leardership of the Shepherd, men will see the light directly. Rewind back a week in time (7000 years) and man could have had this from the start. We made the choice to follow a different path and delay our own development. The fruit of knowledge is either taken by toil and time or given by God as the teacher. His will will be done. Adam was the cause of the fall and the one that leads the way out at the end. Jesus is called the first and last Adam. Man was created on the sixth day and recreated on the same day before the next day of rest. Man will once again make the choice for the fruit of knowledge. This is an assumption on my part.

Like we both know, this is a mystery to be known by connecting the dots back. The closer we get to the end, the easier it becomes to start connecting dots. As for salvation, God goes after the lost sheep. The week is not over yet. I want to believe that none will be lost. It just may take some time and pain to get them back. Many Christians see one life and then heaven or hell. The Bible does not teach this. We are reborn and must see new life to rise over time. Nature is the example of this process right before our eyes. We inherit the land until we gain union fully with God. Salvation is the ability to live eternally.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Jesus quotes from the Old Testament and claims that he is the promised messiah.

On the Road to Emmaus, Luke claims, Jesus explained to two disciples that the Old Testament talked about him but there are no actual scriptures cited in Luke's telling and this seems to be a later addition to the Jesus legend and not something derived from the tradition of Jesus sayings.
Luke was probably a Roman and collected information as it migrated into his vicinity and created a fictionalized version of Jesus, claiming, as part of his literary style, that he interviewed the actual participants.

edit on 6-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Luke 4:16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

What exactly did He read...gee, could it be a Messianic prophecy??? Let's see shall we, maybe Luke made up the book of Isaiah as well, let's find out...

Isaiah 61 1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

He closed the book, that means the wait is over. The next book He opens will be the Book of Life. Can you imagine what will happen when He closes the Book of Life? That means that's it, nothing more, because all has been fulfilled.

reply to post by WarminIndy

You are talking about something completely different than I was so I don't see a point there other than about an unrelated subject.
The Book of Life reference is probably you alluding to a concept out of the Book of Revelation, which is itself speaking metaphorically of something of an apocalyptic nature.
So you are mixing metaphors a bit, where you have Jesus closing the book he was reading from when in fact it was a scroll, or at least that is what is implied. Another thing is that Jesus was not, according to the record of what he said in Luke, not reading the text line for line and was actually jumping around a bit, including saying things from other prophetic books.
So you have Jesus reading the text of Isaiah straight, which he did not, then closing a book which he did not, then opening a book which is never described in the New Testament.
As far as fulfilled prophecy I think Jesus said it when he died, "It is finished".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

You are talking about something completely different than I was so I don't see a point there other than about an unrelated subject.
The Book of Life reference is probably you alluding to a concept out of the Book of Revelation, which is itself speaking metaphorically of something of an apocalyptic nature.
So you are mixing metaphors a bit, where you have Jesus closing the book he was reading from when in fact it was a scroll, or at least that is what is implied. Another thing is that Jesus was not, according to the record of what he said in Luke, not reading the text line for line and was actually jumping around a bit, including saying things from other prophetic books.
So you have Jesus reading the text of Isaiah straight, which he did not, then closing a book which he did not, then opening a book which is never described in the New Testament.
As far as fulfilled prophecy I think Jesus said it when he died, "It is finished".

It is finished, because He closed the book. He closed the Book of Isaiah. Yes, we get the idea of scrolls, but lets look, shall we at the history of books...

After extracting the marrow from the stems, a series of steps (humidification, pressing, drying, gluing, and cutting), produced media of variable quality, the best being used for sacred writing. In Ancient Egypt, papyrus was used for writing maybe as early as from First Dynasty, but first evidence is from the account books of King Neferirkare Kakai of the Fifth Dynasty (about 2400 BC).[2] A calamus, the stem of a reed sharpened to a point, or bird feathers were used for writing. The script of Egyptian scribes was called hieratic, or sacredotal writing; it is not hieroglyphic, but a simplified form more adapted to manuscript writing (hieroglyphs usually being engraved or painted). Papyrus books were in the form of a scroll of several sheets pasted together, for a total length of up to 10 meters or even more. Some books, such as the history of the reign of Ramses III, were over 40 meters long. Books rolled out horizontally; the text occupied one side, and was divided into columns. The title was indicated by a label attached to the cylinder containing the book. Many papyrus texts come from tombs, where prayers and sacred texts were deposited (such as the Book of the Dead, from the early 2nd millennium BC).

I'm sorry, no books? Do you even know history?

reply to post by WarminIndy

I'm sorry, no books? Do you even know history?

Do you know the Bible?

Luke 4:17
and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

That is not ambiguous.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Book? Scroll? Does it matter? Here is a website that shows all the references to the Old Testament. I know you still won't accept this but the book has been persevered and is best understood in its entirety.

www.kalvesmaki.com...

reply to post by sacgamer25


My perspective is that knowing what I do about prophecy in the Bible, people on this forum presume to be greater than all the prophets put together, plus Jesus and God thrown in.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

So you have Jesus reading the text of Isaiah straight, which he did not, then closing a book which he did not, then opening a book which is never described in the New Testament.

Here is a link found by LoneWolf that says they used books back then....we also have a lot of books from earlier than that, anybody who has taken any art history class has seen the pictures, but here is the book found in Jordan..
Book Made of Metal

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

I'm sorry, no books? Do you even know history?

Do you know the Bible?

Luke 4:17
and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,

That is not ambiguous.

edit on 6-1-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Have you been in a Jewish temple to see how they do this? I have. And here again..the link...

Books Found in Jordan

reply to post by WarminIndy


Yes, I attended temple for three years.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

My perspective is that knowing what I do about prophecy in the Bible, people on this forum presume to be greater than all the prophets put together, plus Jesus and God thrown in.

A prophet is subject to the Spirit of Prophecy...and the Spirit of Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ. No one can understand any prophecy without the testimony of Jesus, meaning, unless you look at it from the perspective of the Jewish Messiah, and not the Hellenistic view, you will not know what it means at all.

The description of Jesus in Revelation....He stood in the midst of the the Seven-branched candlestick, the menorah. Why is the image of Jesus holding a menorah? Because it is a uniquely Jewish symbol. The menorah was in the Holy of Holies, which the Jewish priests went into to pray.

Revelation 1:12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

That is the image of Jesus we are to understand. We understand prophecy much clearer from that perspective.

There is no order, to rank and file them in such a way would be to judge and put your own beliefs ahead of the needs of others.

I am A although I'm on the fence about God's existence and not totally conmvinced he exists but even so, why should I be saved before the others and why should they be saved before me?

All men are equal as it says in many religious texts.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Honestly I didn't know there was a waiting line when you pass...

Could someone point to that particular piece of scripture for me...

They all get into "heaven"... by the way.... and their deeds will be judged according to Gods will...

Matthew 19:30
But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Mark 10:31
But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Luke 13:30
And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

reply to post by WarminIndy

The description of Jesus in Revelation....He stood in the midst of the the Seven-branched candlestick, the menorah.

That does not even make sense, there would have been seven candle sticks and the original Menorah was not a candle stick, it was a oil lamp so this is just more of your propaganda nonsense to bend scripture around to fit your Judaism.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

The description of Jesus in Revelation....He stood in the midst of the the Seven-branched candlestick, the menorah.

That does not even make sense, there would have been seven candle sticks and the original Menorah was not a candle stick, it was a oil lamp so this is just more of your propaganda nonsense to bend scripture around to fit your Judaism.

There would have been seven candlesticks....what else is it called Jim Dewey? Do we need to post pictures of menorahs so you can see what they look like? Ok, let's have a contest and find pictures of seven candlesticks within the temple worship in Jerusalem.

And you said before there are no such things as Jews today, and yet you keep saying I am one. Am I a non-person to you?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

The description of Jesus in Revelation....He stood in the midst of the the Seven-branched candlestick, the menorah.

That does not even make sense, there would have been seven candle sticks and the original Menorah was not a candle stick, it was a oil lamp so this is just more of your propaganda nonsense to bend scripture around to fit your Judaism.

Um, have you ever read the book of Revelation? It says candlesticks...Besides who are we talking about here? Right. They could be 7 lightbulbs if thats what he chose to make them.