Man in wheelchair shot dead by Visalia police

reply to post by Domo1


Knife wounds are not usually of the same severity as a gunshot wound. Either way, I get it, no cop should be stabbed on the job regardless of severity, however non lethal weapons should suffice.. or hell, shoot the guys legs or arms, why pop two in the chest?

reply to post by Rockpuck


I kinda agree with less lethal in this case. As for shooting arm/legs once you have committed to shooting, you need to be shooting to kill. Things go wrong and if you're trying to shoot a leg you may end up killing someone. I would probably have shot the guy too, it's scary how fast someone can move with a knife. Takes seconds to cross thirty feet and get a good stab in.

Originally posted by CosmicCitizen
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Yes, I suppose you are right...and that is why all of the old ladies have to be frisked and strip searched by the TSA. They really might be some terrorist in disguise.

I would prefer a sign that read, "Fly at your own risk, firearms allowed, terrorism discouraged."

But, in reality, there is a big difference in a grandma on her way to see family at Christmas compared to police responding to a call about a crime in progress. The police officer is supposed to be suspicious of anyone matching the description of the offender, whereas the TSA is supposed to ignore descriptions, and ignore the fact that there is no credible threat, and just harass grandma for general purpose.

My question is what does the report say about why the man in the wheelchair lunge at the police officer. It also says that the man stood up. Short article need more information...

Either way this officer should face the same prosecution anyone else would when it comes to this. If someone comes at you with a knife you can only legally defend yourself with equal force.

reply to post by ImmortalThought

Either way this officer should face the same prosecution anyone else would when it comes to this. If someone comes at you with a knife you can only legally defend yourself with equal force.

That isn't true. I've never seen "equal force" in any law setting. You can only use lethal force if you fear for your life, or the life of another, but there is never a call for "equal force."

You have no idea what the other person's intentions are, so how could you possibly respond preemptively but also with equality?

Great replies...

Without all the facts we are left to wonder.

Every Officer should be allowed to defend themselves.

I just see that wheelchair laying there...

Sad there wasn't another way.

This is why they shot the guy, start at 1:15 :

He got up out of the chair. Obviously not a cripple, a scamming thief. No idea what he is going to do. Far from grandma in a wheelchair.

reply to post by getreadyalready


scholar.google.com...

Because the man in the wheelchair did not stab the officer, the officer is not justified in the shooting and could only at the time use equal force.

If the man the wheelchair stabbed the officer, then the officer would be "allowed by law" to use a deadly weapon aka shot the man.

Originally posted by Domo1
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

I kinda agree with less lethal in this case. As for shooting arm/legs once you have committed to shooting, you need to be shooting to kill. Things go wrong and if you're trying to shoot a leg you may end up killing someone. I would probably have shot the guy too, it's scary how fast someone can move with a knife. Takes seconds to cross thirty feet and get a good stab in.

What are you saying?? this is crazy, no one has yet said that the man was feigning a disability, his name has still been withheld? Okay, all there is initially, is a suspected felonist..in a wheelchair. First off you say "less lethal in this case", with added "kinda" and then, "I would probably have shot the guy too" and where oh! where did the thirty feet come from, when all is said was that he stood up!

reply to post by ImmortalThought


Thanks for the link. It was interesting. Keep in mind though, this was an appeals court, and they were deliberating over instructions given to the jury, not the validity of the defense. This is for a whole different thread, but I am against any instructions to juries. The whole point of a jury is to insert the human element and allow for exceptions to be made, since we know every single case is unique.

More on topic though, the Florida Statute cited says this

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

View Entire Chapter
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.

So, it never says anything about equality of force, it just says that a person is justified in using force if they believe it is necessary to prevent the imminent use of unlawful force, and they are justified in using deadly force if they reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm.


I think a suspected criminal, lunging at you with a knife is a reasonable threat of death or great bodily harm.

And, 776.05 goes on to loosen the restrictions a little further for law enforcement officers carrying out their duties or attempting to make arrests.

Justifiable Use of Force, Florida Statute

reply to post by CaptChaos


Posted the video on my Facebook page! That is very instructional and eye-opening for the CCW folks that think their gun will always save them. I carry at all times, but I don't ever think of my gun as my first option, hand to hand is more important, and this video proves it!

reply to post by smurfy

What are you saying?? this is crazy, no one has yet said that the man was feigning a disability, his name has still been withheld? Okay, all there is initially, is a suspected felonist..in a wheelchair. First off you say "less lethal in this case", with added "kinda" and then, "I would probably have shot the guy too" and where oh! where did the thirty feet come from, when all is said was that he stood up!

Yeah I'll concede that post was a little crappy. It's hard to have an opinion with so few facts about the situation. 30 feet was an arbitrary number I came up with. It seems like a long distance but as the video above shows it's not that hard to cross that amount of space and kill someone who is armed.

reply to post by whyamIhere


Why do people automatically assume that just because a person is disabled / in a wheel chair that they should be treated different than any other person who is armed and threatening the police?

Thee is NO difference between a healthy person with a knife threatening police or a handicapped person with a knife threatening the police.

To treat them differently is a good way to end up dead.

Some advice - dont threaten the police while holding a weapon.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I've been defending the cop so far, but really, there is a big difference. If he actually was disabled, and only had a knife, then a quick back step or two renders him entirely powerless.

There is a big difference between a disabled person and a healthy person.

Also, mental disabilities and/or drugs sometimes render a person with super-human abilities. A cop needs to be able to assess both situations quickly. So it does need to figure into their thought process.

reply to post by getreadyalready

I've been defending the cop so far, but really, there is a big difference. If he actually was disabled, and only had a knife, then a quick back step or two renders him entirely powerless.

That's what I was going for with my sloppy ass post. If the cop was far enough away to be able to safely make that judgement call, by all means taze the guy if just falls out of he chair. If the guy got up and was moving at him, I think was justified in shooting as that great video above shows people can get pretty far before the gun comes out.

I think we need more info before we jump to conclusions one way or the other.

Originally posted by smurfy

Originally posted by Domo1
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

I kinda agree with less lethal in this case. As for shooting arm/legs once you have committed to shooting, you need to be shooting to kill. Things go wrong and if you're trying to shoot a leg you may end up killing someone. I would probably have shot the guy too, it's scary how fast someone can move with a knife. Takes seconds to cross thirty feet and get a good stab in.

What are you saying?? this is crazy, no one has yet said that the man was feigning a disability, his name has still been withheld? Okay, all there is initially, is a suspected felonist..in a wheelchair. First off you say "less lethal in this case", with added "kinda" and then, "I would probably have shot the guy too" and where oh! where did the thirty feet come from, when all is said was that he stood up!

Did we read the same article? Did you miss the part where it said he got out of the wheelchair? With a weapon.I don't know about you but to me that clearly says the wheelchair was more then likely used as a ruse..ya know,criminals do that sometimes."oh,no one will suspect the poor man in the wheelchair doing anything wrong".I'll say it again...wait until all the facts come out before taking sides.

here's a more developed story from a local paper, the fresno bee.

apparently the cops were familiar with the guy, the chair could have absolutely been a ruse for shoplifting. i still wish we weren't so used to things like this happening.

I myself am in a wheelchair (For around 10 years now), and I think I'm pretty much like anyone else. If for some reason I go crazy/mental and think flashing a knife at police is an awesome hobby to partake in, I hope the police take control of the situation regardless of if I'm in a wheelchair or not, I don't want to be responsible for taking someones life.
There are some times when additional help/services are needed for us disabled, but a free run on weaponry? That's ridiculous.

Edit:-
Also, I'd just like to note this, under my chair seat is a hidden pocket which has NEVER been searched. Police have looked under my chair and never noticed this pocket and let me into courthouses. Airport security have checked over my chair for 10 minutes and failed to see this pocket. Its EASILY large enough to stash a knife or gun in, or a bomb for that matter. I shudder at what could slip past the nets!!

reply to post by Domo1

Text I think was justified in shooting as that great video above shows people can get pretty far before the gun comes out.

This guy didnt get very far.

And your argument is that cops need to shoot people with knives because you can stab someone with a knive before a gun is pulled and aimed? Do you realize that makes no sense?

Do you work for the government?

Why are you defending a cop that murdered a guy in a wheelchair?

Originally posted by theovermensch
reply to post by Domo1

 

Text I think was justified in shooting as that great video above shows people can get pretty far before the gun comes out.

This guy didnt get very far.

And your argument is that cops need to shoot people with knives because you can stab someone with a knive before a gun is pulled and aimed? Do you realize that makes no sense?

Do you work for the government?

Why are you defending a cop that murdered a guy in a wheelchair?

Why are you branding this cop a murderer when the article clearly states he GOT OUT OF THE WHEELCHAIR WITH A WEAPON?Lots of armchair cops here on ATS.I'd love to see how most of you would react when put in the same situation.I'm guessing 95% of you couldn't handle it.Oh by the way.. do you work for the government?