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Man in wheelchair shot dead by Visalia police

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posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 05:29 AM
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Did anyone else see the man standing? Obviously forensic analysis will need to be done. What I can see is very blurry and hard to make out. The man is obviously sitting somewhat in the chair after he was shot. But he could have been blown back into it. It all depends on the angle. But wouldn't the odds be in favor of him being blown clear of an apparatus on rolling wheels if he was not planted firmly in it. Or was the brake on? (Highly unlikely) Unless shot at point blank, and straight on. My next question is why did the police have to blow a hole into the center of a seat the man was not sitting in? Anyways I am not a professional so I guess we just wait and see how the analysis turns out. I have a strong hunch he was not standing. That is why I was looking so closely at the picture.
edit on 13-12-2011 by elouina because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 05:48 AM
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Originally posted by elouina
Did anyone else see the man standing? Obviously forensic analysis will need to be done. What I can see is very blurry and hard to make out. The man is obviously sitting somewhat in the chair after he was shot. But he could have been blown back into it. It all depends on the angle. But wouldn't the odds be in favor of him being blown clear of an apparatus on rolling wheels if he was not planted firmly in it. Or was the brake on? (Highly unlikely) Unless shot at point blank, and straight on. My next question is why did the police have to blow a hole into the center of a seat the man was not sitting in? Anyways I am not a professional so I guess we just wait and see how the analysis turns out. I have a strong hunch he was not standing. That is why I was looking so closely at the picture.
edit on 13-12-2011 by elouina because: (no reason given)


Are you seeing something I'm not? All I see is an empty wheelchair on it's side..with a police car next to it...no doubt taken to spur anti police sentiment.Blow a hole in the seat?Yeah,you're not a professional..so again..if you're seeing/reading a link that hasnt been posted..please share with the rest of us.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 06:09 AM
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Well I said it was hard to make out details. But isn't that his head off to the left, leaing on the sidewalk? Maybe not. If not, I wonder where the body was after he was killed. Anyways, there is a round hole in the seat.
edit on 13-12-2011 by elouina because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 06:18 AM
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Oh wow, that is the next city over from where I live. Crazy world we're living in!



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by nightstalker78

Originally posted by theovermensch
reply to post by Domo1
 





Text I think was justified in shooting as that great video above shows people can get pretty far before the gun comes out.


This guy didnt get very far.

And your argument is that cops need to shoot people with knives because you can stab someone with a knive before a gun is pulled and aimed? Do you realize that makes no sense?

Do you work for the government?

Why are you defending a cop that murdered a guy in a wheelchair?


Why are you branding this cop a murderer when the article clearly states he GOT OUT OF THE WHEELCHAIR WITH A WEAPON?Lots of armchair cops here on ATS.I'd love to see how most of you would react when put in the same situation.I'm guessing 95% of you couldn't handle it.Oh by the way.. do you work for the government?


No. Why would I work for the government?I am not defending the police.
And I think the guy is a murderer. This is why cops should not have guns.
What is wrong with tasers and rubber bullets?
The police kill too many people.
They often kill innocent people.Mental people.
And I wouldnt have to handle it because I wouldnt work for the police.
and "GOT OUT OF THE WHEELCHAIR WITH A WEAPON?" that sounds silly. I read the article,the cop murdered a guy in a wheelchair.A petty criminal thats seems to have certainly had some sort of mental problems. People should not support the police or defend them.People should not work as police.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by elouina
Well I said it was hard to make out details. But isn't that his head off to the left, leaing on the sidewalk? Maybe not. If not, I wonder where the body was after he was killed. Anyways, there is a round hole in the seat.
edit on 13-12-2011 by elouina because: (no reason given)



No I don't believe that's his head.Where's the rest of his body?Magically behind the wheelchair where we can't see it?



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


I've been defending the cop so far, but really, there is a big difference. If he actually was disabled, and only had a knife, then a quick back step or two renders him entirely powerless.


There is a big difference between a disabled person and a healthy person.

Also, mental disabilities and/or drugs sometimes render a person with super-human abilities. A cop needs to be able to assess both situations quickly. So it does need to figure into their thought process.



And if the guy in the wheel chair is trained on how to throw a knife in such a manner as to kill a person? What kind of knife is it? Is it standard or is it one like the military uses that can actually shoot the blade? What is the guys history? Police? Martial Arts? Military? Special Forces? former / current criminal? druggie?

Unless someone is absolutely certain its a standard knife, he gets treated as if he could walk / fight. Even then the ability to say with 100% certainty that the knife is basic is a stretch itself.

I get where people are coming from, however I dont think people adequately grasp the concept of just how dangerous a knife is. If people want I can upload a cap ton of photos showing what it looks like to get sliced the hell up by a knife and not die from it.

The next step after identifying a weapon would be to develop a game plan on how to disarm the person holding. How many people here would have advanced on the guy in an attempt to physically attempt to gain control of the knife? How many people here believe they could do it without placing themselves, or anyone near, including the person holding the knife and making the threats, in any danger?

The answer by the way is no one knows what they would have done and how it would have turned out if they tried.

This was not an excessive use of force....

This WAS a person armed with a knife making threats.

The goal is to end the encounter, which would require the man complying with commands to drop the knife. Instead the guy lunged towards officers.

Sorry, but the guy holding the knife decided his outcome at that moment.
edit on 13-12-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 07:14 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 





Text Sorry, but the guy holding the knife decided his outcome at that moment.


What if the guy holding the knife is drunk? Or on drugs? Someone having a break-down.Or a mental person off their meds? Do they deserve to die?
The police should use non-lethal methods to deal with things like this.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 07:21 AM
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What makes this worse is that if the officer was lunged at and feared for his life, then they victim was shot at point blank range. Surely, being this close it would have been easy to aim for a leg if he felt the absolute need to shoot at all?



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by theovermensch
reply to post by Xcathdra
 





Text Sorry, but the guy holding the knife decided his outcome at that moment.


What if the guy holding the knife is drunk? Or on drugs? Someone having a break-down.Or a mental person off their meds? Do they deserve to die?
The police should use non-lethal methods to deal with things like this.


No one deserves to die, regardless of their status. However, regardless if its Police, Fire, EMS, a priest or just a passerby, those people have a right to be free from threat or harm. The Police are not clairvoyant or telepathic, so unless an officer has prior experience with the person they are dealing with, the only way for an officer to know if the person is on drugs, mental, issues, etc is for the person they are dealing with to inform them.

Just as that person has a right to be alive, so do the officers. As I stated before, a person's disability can be a factor, but its not an immunity card.

Do the people who responded to the call have a right to live? Should they be killed because the guy is in a wheel chair? Did the officers know for certain that the guy was a true invalid? I know quite a few people who use wheel chairs not because they are a paraplegic but because of back / hip / leg problems. They are able to stand and move around, but usually for not very long.

Between the media and the police addressing the incident, we all have a 20/20 hindsight picture of what occurred. People must keep in mind the officers do not get that luxury. They are forced to act on the information they get from dispatch, family, witness / bystanders etc. When reviewing an officers use of force, we cannot use 20/20 hindsight. We must go by the standard the Supreme Court set which is what the officer perceived the exact moment the use of force occurred.

In this case, a man armed with a knife lunged at an officer.

As far as non lethal, there is no such thing, contrary to how the media portrays it. What we use is "less than lethal" because even pepper spray could conceivably kill a person. Rubber bullets can kill etc etc etc.

Anytime an officer is using a less than lethal item, policy usually requires to have a second officer present who is lethal and who can act should the less lethal manner fail. However, a person holding a knife and threatening people, coupled with lunging at an officer, is NOT a less than lethal situation. It is a deadly force encounter.
edit on 13-12-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 07:40 AM
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Originally posted by fiftyfifty
What makes this worse is that if the officer was lunged at and feared for his life, then they victim was shot at point blank range. Surely, being this close it would have been easy to aim for a leg if he felt the absolute need to shoot at all?


The standard for law enforcement is not to shoot to kill, It is to end the threat. We are not allowed to "wound" or fire warning shots. We are trained to shoot center mass for 2 important reasons -

* - When engaging a human, center mass (chest) is the largest part.
* - Unlike the military, law enforcement as well as law does not allow for collateral damage. If we shoot at an arm or leg and miss, that bullet doesn't just self detonate. it continues until it runs out of steam, or it enters another object, possibly human.

When we discharge our duty weapon, its done with the required legal criteria of ending a threat.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 07:49 AM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 



This WAS a person armed with a knife making threats.

The goal is to end the encounter, which would require the man complying with commands to drop the knife. Instead the guy lunged towards officers.

Sorry, but the guy holding the knife decided his outcome at that moment.


Completelly agree.

I only had a small issue with saying there is no difference. Every situation has small differences and a wheelchair is definitely something that figures into the equation, but I agree that a person can still be very dangerous even from a wheelchair.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 07:58 AM
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Was somebody there? No?? Then drop the scamming part, wannabe CSI!! All I see is a whellchair. And somebody has got some explaining to do. And a cop claiming something means nothing.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 08:18 AM
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It's kind of hard to believe that somebody in a wheelchair was lunging.

Of course, with how trigger happy some cops seem to be these days, he could have simply been adjusting his position and they blitzed.

Not even necessarily their fault, either. A lot of cops are ex-military. They come home with shellshock and just flip.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by Hellas
Was somebody there? No?? Then drop the scamming part, wannabe CSI!! All I see is a whellchair. And somebody has got some explaining to do. And a cop claiming something means nothing.


Well, then you didn't read the article very well did you? He was suspected of a crime (shoplifting), he had already evaded capture by security guards and threatened them with a knife, and then he threatened the cop, and apparently stood up and lunged. And it isn't just the cop's word, it is the word of the security guards that called the cop too.


Visalia police after allegedly lunging toward an officer with a knife.

The confrontation happened Saturday afternoon after Sequoia Mall security guards unsuccessfully tried to detain the 29-year-old man, whom they suspected of shop lifting, the Visalia Times-Delta reports.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
It's kind of hard to believe that somebody in a wheelchair was lunging.

Of course, with how trigger happy some cops seem to be these days, he could have simply been adjusting his position and they blitzed.

Not even necessarily their fault, either. A lot of cops are ex-military. They come home with shellshock and just flip.


So, as soon as someone not disabled sits in a wheelchair they are crippled and unable to lunge? Or is it something about the construction of a wheelchair you've witnessed that makes it impossible to lunge from one?



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 08:59 AM
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reply to post by whyamIhere
 


What would you say if the cop got stabbed by the man in the wheelchair?

Self-defense is legal. Someone tries to kill you, your reaction results in them dying, is perfectly legal. Whether their in a wheelchair or not.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by Hellas
Was somebody there? No?? Then drop the scamming part, wannabe CSI!! All I see is a whellchair. And somebody has got some explaining to do. And a cop claiming something means nothing.

The cops word will mean a lot in a court of law. Maybe not to you, but that won't matter in the courts now will it.

The cop could be just like you and me, give people a break will ya?



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 09:12 AM
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Terrible.
Only in America.



posted on Dec, 13 2011 @ 09:23 AM
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reply to post by Dr Cosma
 





Text Terrible. Only in America.


And only in America would so many cheer it on.




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