Finally we have a date : December 9

Ok, so I am neither very financially literate nor politically literate and for the purpose of my own eduction into this extremly vital topic, and perhaps to assist those who has also not yet graduated into the comfort of understanding all this with ease, I have copied and pasted 'sovereign' from Wiki:

Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory.[1] It can be found in a power to rule and make law that rests on a political fact for which no purely legal explanation can be provided. In theoretical terms, the idea of "sovereignty", historically, from Socrates to Thomas Hobbes, has always necessitated a moral imperative on the entity exercising it.

For centuries past, the idea that a state could be sovereign was always connected to its ability to guarantee the best interests of its own citizens.

Thus, if a state could not act in the best interests of its own citizens, it could not be thought of as a “sovereign” state

.[2]

The concept of sovereignty has been discussed, debated and questioned throughout history, from the time of the Romans through to the present day. It has changed in its definition, concept, and application throughout, especially during the Age of Enlightenment. The current notion of state sovereignty is often traced back to the Peace of Westphalia (1648), which, in relation to states, codified the basic principles:
territorial integrity
border inviolability
supremacy of the state (rather than the Church)
a sovereign is the supreme lawmaking authority within its jurisdiction

End of quote.


So, if Europe looses its Sovereignty, it truly appears that we will be very well on our way to a dreaded one world order. Scary stuff, especially the part about not being able to act in it's citizen's best interest!

Ps: I totally support the view of the poster saying that all this is actually for nothing as we cannot take anything with us when we die. We are playing the wrong game, on the long run, and will discover that we have done nothing with our time on earth only when the lights go out on this body.

Humanity needs to rediscover it's soul, or else it is simply 'foul'play. Materialism is killing us.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000



You mean theyre going to turn into the European United States. Wonderful! Now they won't be able to point the finger at us anymore for all the troubles in the world. See Europe, this is what you get for snubbing your noses at the U.S.! It comes back to bite you in the ass.


You do realise there are over 25 languages in europe right? You can just say "see europe", there are over a billion people here, with widely varying views on the world and its problems. So for someone to say "see europe, this is what you get" seems a bits naive if not slightly offensive. You think we chose to be bailed out by anyone? You think we chose to even need bailed out of anything? Seriously man, I live here and I can tell you, its a bit more involved than just saying "we told you so europe".

reply to post by Vitchilo


If the Eurozone breaks up, we are in for a bumpy ride here in the US too.

No one single person can rise in Europe as the ultimate leader in control until something like this and far greater happens.

But this is not the event to bring it all about, so it won't be on 12/9/11 in any time zone.

If I'm wrong so be it but $20,000 I'm not

1. Fiscal Federation.

It isnt gonna work, cos it will put too many of the corrupted elites - both political and economic leaders - out of jobs. Once IMF or anyone with the power to impose fical responsiblity, to ensure proper utilisation of funds and accountability of debts, it would mean the end of the gravy train for the elites, the way the Iranian nuke weaponisation programme will end should IAEA be allowed free inspection in Iran.

Even if sensible citizens will vote for such authority, rest assured the corrupted elites will do everything possible to stir up the masses through the use of nationalism to reject such notions, and will see the IMF or anyone wishing to help stoned if not molotov bombed.

Corruption is far too endemic and too far gone in those failed states, even if fiscal federation is the most rational answer for the time, but a time that the unawakened masses is not ready for, sadly....

.
2 Break up of Euro.

This is the only solution for such times. We mortals are flawed beings, and can only learn by making mistakes, then correcting them in our own way, no matter how many times we fall. It is the only way, for no two men thinks alike, but pain is an emotion that both will share and will not want such pain again by trying better ways rationalised by their own kind and not dictated by others.

It would be suicidal for the world to pay for the mistakes made by the European leaders and its unawakened citizens, by pumping more money into those inept and corrupted states. There will be no end.

It's like a balloon blown bigger, but balloons do have limits, just as central banks and responsible fical sovereign states have, and will burst.

If IMF, responsible central bankers around the world refuses to listen to the people, then the world will see a spectacular fiscal balloon burst, the way the world and New York saw in 1936 when the german zepplin Hindenburg balloon airship filled with hydrogen gas burst into flames killing everyone aboard and some on the ground as well. This fiscal detonation will be far more spectacular and far far more painfully felt by many around the world.......

Not sure if it has been asked before but....

Assuming the players of the NWO are successful in reaching their megalomaniac outcome, then what. After they have enslaved everyone on the planet, then what. That to me would be the ultimate goal but I just do not see them stopping there, these people do not understand what enough means. But, lets say they are successful and finally reach their goal, what else is there for them to conquer?

What would be next?

reply to post by Skewed

What would be next?

Killing people till the world population is something like 500 million individual.

Then they develop technology enough so they become immortal and fusion with machines...

Read 1984 and Brave New World.

reply to post by Bicent76


the founder of Rome? Rome is not an institution rather a capitol city. It was once an empire, but never was it founded by Italy as Italy as a country is a relatively new thing. Do people not realize this whole banking crash,where trillions have vanished was a planned breakdown that can only benefit the N.W.O . A Central Govt is in all sense`s a NWO Were all pretty fckd as they have been positioning themselves into the right positions, just like on a chess board ,for years. there is no way bar all out civil war to stop this,its too late. And your average person does`nt have the stomach or the means(UK/Europe) to carry it out, our draconian firearm laws prevent this, and for that reason. unless you own an illegal firearm,and a good one, you dont stand much of a chance.

well that's fantastic, december the ninth is my birthday, and could also give birth to a system of control with the potential to grow into the kind of totalitarianism depicted in an orwell novel..

weird, i was born in 1984..

Kabooooooom.

And Scene: Europe Agrees To Disagree, Next Summit Date Set For March 2012 As David Cameron Kills Compromise

Not the headlines Gollum van Rompuy needed at 3:30 am CET, when he was scheduled to have a press conference:

- EU LEADERS AGREE THEY WILL REEXAMINE CEILING OF ESM BAILOUT FUND IN MARCH 2012 - EU DIPLOMAT via RTRS
- TREATY CHANGE LIKELY TO BE DONE AMONG EURO ZONE PLUS OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT NOT AT 27 - EU DIPLOMATS via RTRS
- EU LEADERS AGREED PERMANENT ESM BAILOUT FUND WILL NOT HAVE A BANKING LICENCE -- EU DIPLOMAT
- And the guilty party: An agreement at 27 fell through after British Prime Minister David Cameron demanded concessions that Germany and France were not willing to give, one of the officials said.

Translation: tomorrow's summit is as of now an epic failure. As for the Eurozone lasting through January 1 of 2012, let alone March... good luck.

Dec 9 is here.

There are many things left unsaid, and is absolutely IRRESPONSIBLE of these supposed 'leaders' of EU, which only leave many of their citizens not sure of what's going on and what's going to happen.

This is not the way to lead. There is nothing to hide, since the decision had been made. Better the truth that sets all free to pick up the pieces, progress and evolve then to live in speculation and delusions.

1. Who will bailout the troubled countries in EU now?

It had been a talkfest despite the bravado of Dr Merkal and Sarkozy. They had merely sidestepped the critical issue of SOLVING the liquidity problem in EU today, and instead, talk about avoiding the mistakes made in the past for the future.

How can you avoid resolving the present and talk BS about the future???!!!!

Who will bailout the troubled contries in EU now? German citizens aren't gonna pick up the tab for sure. Even if dictator Sarkozy is willing to, the french people will roll out the guillotine for his head if he does so. ECB and IMF came clean that they WILL NOT buy those EU bonds or print more money, despite rumours that they will.

So when Italy can't pay the coming interest on its soveriegn debt of 300 billion and rising interest rates that would wipe up its gov revenues from GDP in the years to come, who will save them?

Greece is already a gone case. It had defaulted. So too many other states with their interest payments comming up or had already come up and not paying.

.
2. Same old, same old.

Despite what many would fear of apocalyptic proportions happening within EU, the reality is not as frightening as it seems to be.

What will actually happen would be the same old, same old paradigm of what happens when you default on your credit card. Owe the bank a thousand dollars and you have a problem. Owe the bank a million dollars and the bank have a problem.

Bank executives will and can only chase, plead, sanction the defaulting states, try as they will to get back as much money as possible. They know ligitation will take time and often will not work, time that they do not have as each night, they have to balance their books, otherwise should a bank run happen, they will have no money to pay depositors.

This farcical drama will be played out and drag out for long, using all tricks such as cooking the books and more. Simply because the banks have NO solutions now, nor do the ECB or leaders, and are at the mercy of the borrowers. Better to have some money back than none, and then be liquidated and spend time in prison.

Austerity drives will be certainly imposed on defaulting states by their inept and corrupt leaders, but only the citizens will face austerity, not the corrupted ones whom will get to maintain their lifestyles. Long peace does wonders to humans - it makes them docile and accept even sh*t dish out.

If there are no visionary straighttalking economic leaders amongst them, then we will see the decline of europe as its youth and educated migrate to other nations, even to China, turning into another Africa in our world, with its remaining resources grabbed vulture like by other rapacious nations and individuals. The once proud heritage of Europe will be no more. Even Germany will be gone, as its debts are the biggest after years of funding other EU inept leaders.

All is still not lost. The future is now in the hands of the citizens. The current leaders had failed.

I sort of rooting for the collapse.. just let it all crumble.Painful at first, then rebuild. Break a few eggs dammit! Its like picking a scab off over and over, yet complaining the damned thing never heals. Knock of the bail out and market manipulations.. kaboom. Then maybe some sane folks will fill the vacuum... or at least crazies with some fiscal sense versus what we have now : crazies with no fiscal sense.

/rant

Originally posted by mzungu
well that's fantastic, december the ninth is my birthday, and could also give birth to a system of control with the potential to grow into the kind of totalitarianism depicted in an orwell novel..

weird, i was born in 1984..

Happy Birthday!!

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101


Who will bailout the troubled contries in EU now? German citizens aren't gonna pick up the tab for sure. Even if dictator Sarkozy is willing to, the french people will roll out the guillotine for his head if he does so.

I don't particularly want to argue with anything else in your post, you make some good and pertinant commentary.

I just disagree with this statement. I mean, I know Germans are violently against the idea of helping any other countries, but the french aren't. Here, people are just taking it as normal. They believe peoples should be interdependant, it is part of their cultural values. Not helping a neighbor that falls on hard times is unthinkable to them. So nobody here complains about that possibility.

reply to post by Bluesma


I do agree with you about the French People. Heck! The Statue of Liberty and its help to US in the critical years of 1776 are testimonials of the french folks and values that you are talking about.

It is one thing to help others, BUT it is quite another thing to help the ineptitude and corrupted leaders of failed states. There is and will be no end to bailing them out, as they will only use it as before - to buy power by ramping up its civil service, throw money to anyone who ask - pork barrel politics, cronyism with govt contracts, etc.

A nation borrows only for the purpose of progressing with tangible returns such as higher economic growth and intangible returns such as advances in tech,science and societal improvements. Trillions of dollars borrowed over the years and what had they been able to show for today? Nothing!! but more loans wanted!

It's not their money, so they don't feel the pain. It's YOUR hard earned money, which could have been better used and manage for those europeans that truly need it and not for the irresponsible.

The new EU treaty today does attempt to resolve such issues by imposing dictatorial economic oversight upon other states, forcing them to give up their sovereignity, BUT that's after the hens had already fled the coop - in the future.

Existing soveriegn debts are yet unresolved and those combined funds are BEYOND even ALL humanity's current ability to help pay even if many volunteered to, for each have their own debts to settle now. Those banks holding EU sovereign debts are sitting on empty today. Fortunately, not many depositors are asking for money back, otherwise......

Well folks, it's doomsday again. More grays and drones and fiddlywiddles at my door again. Gotta go, I hear beeping and gunshots.

OUT.FG100

Originally posted by Bicent76
Um I just do not think these countries that lose sovereignty, like Italy, and Greece, are going to accept that to well. Your talking about Greece, the founder of democracy, and Italy the founder of Rome. I do not see these countries as puppet governments to a central Government in Europe, or whatever it is they are dreaming up in Europe..


Traders are in lala land, along with whoever else thinks countries are just going to hand the keys over to the gates

Lets see how this chit storm settles, before we go off the depend with this..

It won't go as planned. never does.

France and Germany cant control this.

Its amazing to think that this is spread globally.

USA-Recession,

Europe - Euro break up, bank run imminent

China - Property bubble popping fast

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

Despite what many would fear of apocalyptic proportions happening within EU, the reality is not as frightening as it seems to be.

What will actually happen would be the same old, same old paradigm of what happens when you default on your credit card. Owe the bank a thousand dollars and you have a problem. Owe the bank a million dollars and the bank have a problem.

you have no idea of how leveraged these banks are on their derivative exposures. Alot are off BT. Wait until a credit level event happens that triggers all the CDS in circulation...unless ECB cloud it like they did with Greece,

Eurozone banking system on the edge of collapse

The European Central Bank admitted it had held meetings about providing emergency funding to the region's struggling banks, however City figures said a "collateral crunch" was looming.

"If anyone thinks things are getting better then they simply don't understand how severe the problems are. I think a major bank could fail within weeks," said one London-based executive at a major global bank.

Many banks, including some French, Italian and Spanish lenders, have already run out of many of the acceptable forms of collateral such as US Treasuries and other liquid securities used to finance short-term loans and have been forced to resort to lending out their gold reserves to maintain access to dollar funding.

And let's mention that Cramer says that all will be alright. If you know anything about Cramer, you know that the exact opposite of what he says is the truth. So almost time to panic.