Finally we have a date : December 9

Originally posted by DannyboyUK

Originally posted by Bicent76
Um I just do not think these countries that lose sovereignty, like Italy, and Greece, are going to accept that to well. Your talking about Greece, the founder of democracy, and Italy the founder of Rome. I do not see these countries as puppet governments to a central Government in Europe, or whatever it is they are dreaming up in Europe..


Traders are in lala land, along with whoever else thinks countries are just going to hand the keys over to the gates

Lets see how this chit storm settles, before we go off the depend with this..

It won't go as planned. never does.

France and Germany cant control this.

Its amazing to think that this is spread globally.

USA-Recession,

Europe - Euro break up, bank run imminent

China - Property bubble popping fast

Germany is just doing the math to see which will be cheaper, bail outs or loosing their easy EU ride and having their currency value skyrocket and loosing a huge chunk of exports.

Why is it always a PM of Poland that would eventually screws up and sold out his own nation, when crises happen? It happened once in the 30s when Poland's PM Józef Piłsudski praised Hitler and join in to grab its neighbouring lands, only to watch later Hitler swallowing and brutalizing the nation later.

It's a horror to hear the current PM praise Merkal as the only nation that can save Europe today.

By some fluke of time and space event, we are BACK in the 30s today.

Make no mistake, Merkal's iron will to keep EU intact is not out of any affinity to the cultural heritage shared by Europeans.

Currently, the biggest holder of EU debts is Germany and German banks. If EU is to dissolve, as it rightfully should so that all nations be free to rebuild their economic systems again, Germany will crumble and end up paying massive debts than other nations, its citizens reduced to penury, its entire economic struture crumble overnight.

Thus, the NEW treaty by Germany is once again, not built upon noble aims of integretation, but on selfish interest of Germany's survival, bordering upon DICTATORSHIP, as other EU nations will have to surrender not only their sovereignity, but fund's Germany's debts as well, as a priority over other states.

On Friday, Merkal claimed that the new treaty of 26 nations will share and contribute a $200 billion fund to help Italy and other soon to default states to stay alive. WHERE is the money comming from? None other than the pensions and tax revenues of the other 26 states.

And WHERE will those funds eventually return to? To Germany and France, as that's where the repayments will go to for the loans made. WORSE is that those funds are only be INTEREST payments, NOT even the capital sum, which means Italy, Greece, Spain and other poor nations WILL BE INDEBTED FOREVER to DICTATOR GERMANY and the FRANCE's Daladier PM, once they agree to the treaty.


I am not sure if the other 26 EU nations ( except UK) are either plain stupid to realize this, or just remain silent in the hope of passing the buck to the next leaders to answer the citizens sufferings.

Or more sinister, as NO ONE was punished for the squandering and swindle of Trillions in sovereign debts, perhaps those leaders may think that they will reap a share of it, get away with it further, to hell to the citizens and 'may the citizens eat cake' ( Marie Antonette's famous words)?

May the common masses of Europe, including the german people, be spared of the tragedy of war that will come as in the 40s, a mistake we mankind never really learnt, when austerity drives kick in, with blame and misunderstanding heap upon themselves but NOT at the culprits whom led to such stage - both political and economic leaders........

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Yeah, I agree with you. I percieve the french as not looking that far into it- their not at all thinking of any of that. They just percieve the people in countries as Greece suffering and can't help but giving almost as a reflex.

They had a story on the news last night reporting that in the last few months, since everyone is becoming aware of the current crisis, and feeling it more, charity has suddenly shot up in an exaggerrated way. People are giving money and food to all kinds of organizations, even as they themselves may be making less. I have seen a bit of it myself.
As an american, I admit with shame that I have moments I start to sort of scoff at their "bleeding heart mentalities".

But their willingness right now to sacrifice for the other countries that are suffering (without any further judgement upon how they go there) is probably also due to two things-
It is a Catholic based culture with the Catholic values..... self sacrifice for others and poverty is considered "good" and blessed. (as opposed to the Protestant values, where financial success is a sign of having been "good" and blessed). These sorts of values operate on a deep level of psyche.

But also, it hasn't been that long since they lived through devastating war on their own land. They have a bit more confidence in their ability to survive hardship than the americans do. They grew up with their grandparents still carrying on habits of survivalism and learned a lot. They are not as scared of letting go of what they've got.

Thanks you for your update on what's happening on the ground in France.

On a personal level, I am heartened by what our common human brothers and sisters in France is doing - donating their precious hard earned money, espacially during these lean times, to fellow european.

But sadly...it will never be enough, as long as the leaders of EU still selfishly wants to maintain the unconscionable euro dollar, which will only benefit initial creditors worldwide including Germany.

It is not the fault of the common masses, for they held trust in their elected leaders to do the right thing, but today, the result of such trust is so starkingly clear....

May the empathic of the kind french people, and fellow humans around the world, chip in to help the innocent masses in Europe whom are struggling today, just as we mankind had never stinge in our help to others around the world in their hour of need....

The Dec 9 Euro deal had failed. It addresses the future, which is good, but does not solve the present debt.

Dr Merkal's solution of totalistarianism is useless, for it cannot be implemented onto the sovereign masses whom wishes not to be enslaved by debt bondgage, will see the selfish angle of Dr Merkal's national interest to get back its returns on debts, and not the whole of EU aspirations

Totalitarianism no doubt is one solution to end the chaos of EU economic disarry and save the culprits - economic and corporation leaders. Hitler's way is more direct and appealing - nationalised all banks and their deposits, then leave it to the dictator to apportion it out as he sees fit, not necessarily fairly or equal, create slaves of hated ethnic groups, etc. That's Hitler did it.

But in today's awakened age, of trying to learn from the mistakes of previous authoritarianims in many states around the world that had never worked politically or economically, so too will Dr Merkal's totalitarianism fail.

The quickest solution is a general debt forgiveness, but it will hurt many savers and pensioners' deposits even if the culprit banks deservedly get punished in that process. Worse it leaves corrupted prolifigate leaders off the hook.

The only solution left is debt MORATORIUM of 30 years, with no interest, put capital sum paid off in cushioned bits for both debtor and savers over that period. A better solution than for a general cancellations of debts.

1. EU nations will focus on growing their GDP, attracting private and public investmetns, with existing tax revenues. Trim on national expenditure, NOT slaughter the needs for the most critical resource of the nation - its people - better and employable education to make them smarter, healthcare to help them maintain their health, better infrastructure to ensure economic activities are not hampered, etc.

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2. EU nations to set aside 25% of whatever REVENUES earned from GDP, to pay off its debts, instead of the current high interests based solely on soveriegn loans, which is now often more than GDP earned, if not paying the TOTAL revenue earned from GDP today.

Whatever that's extra, should the GDP growth be good each yearwill be consider as goodwill interest, and ALL debts considered fully paid after 30 yrs.

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3. Banks in the meantime will have to raise funds to meet its limit requirements - selling its assets, come out with better ethical methods to generate revenues, or be sold to a better management outfit capable of doing a better job.

With the 25% debt returns annually by EU states, they will have to responsibly manage this fund and attempt to return back 10% of any depositors of those debt instruments, ANNUALLY, and not upon maturity, for this solution is no longer an investment instrument, but a debt rescue vehicle.

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4. Investors and holders of the sovereign debt funds must accept their opportunity loss of interest and slower returns even on their capital sum invested. This is a crisis period. It could easily be nothing in return, as in the case of many other investment scams.

This may be the best solution, but at this point of time, it is either this solution or war fought on all levels between nations and precious human lives over the issue of money, which is only a peice of paper that can be earned over time than lives lost that can never return which is forever gone. Every human life is precious and means something special to another.

I am only an insignificant nobody, and could rationalise this solution. I am sure there are far more intelligent humans than me, whom can think of better, safe, with less inflationary ways to save Europe.