Well, I am sorry you feel that way, but I do not, and I support President Bush 110%, and don't really give a rats behind what the world thinks about how the US conducts itself.

the world demands we help, then they demand we stay out, then they demand we send in troops, then they waffle and waver... Kyoto is just another example. The US is expected to shoulder the load while everyone else gets to keep on keeping on... so no one ratifies the treaty, and snivels because we don't.

You know, I really don't care what somebody in Germany thinks the US ought to do, not at all. We are doing the right thing, and sometimes doing the right thing means ignoring those who would waffle and waver around the issue. The time is now, and we must act, and we did act, and rightly, I think.

it is NOT about oil, at least not primarily. And i am sorry that you think that is the only reason we act.

If it were true, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia, deposed the rulers there, and installed our own government and not messed around with Sadaam. After all, the House Saud IS funding terrorists, training, sheltering, and teaching... AND, Saudi Arabia is where the oil is, so your argument just does not hold water.

An easier case could be made for invading that country...

Nope OIL is not the only reason - that would be too Simplistic. Everybody knows that "Neo-Conservative Republicans" are in charge of the Governmental/Corporate Power Structure. War = Profits for the Military Industrial Complex (Pss... Which they
Co-incidentally OWN) - as a Matter of fact Senator McCain made a statement that this was "War Profiteering". In addition the Neo-Cons Like Rumsfeld & Cheney are 100% Zionists - so Israel was also a factor.

I took a jog around my neighborhood recently - Some guy had a Mural painted on the Spare Tire Compartment on the Back of his Vehicle -> Big American Flag "To all the Boys that lost their Lives on 9/11 we will never forget you". Something touching like that - the only Ironic thing is that his "Vehicle" was a HUGE HUMVEE TANK (I would be surprised if it made more than 10 M.P.G.)!!! Do you not see the Hypocrisy in this? We can NOT have it both ways!!! Do you ever hear our "Leaders" ever say anything like "we need to CONSERVE OIL - lets be more efficient" –
Of-Course not - this is what it means to be a "Conservative"?

P.S. Guess who owns the Oil Companies too.



[edit on 13-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Nope OIL is not the only reason - that would be too Simplistic.

Huzzaaahhh! The truth outs.

Everybody knows

You know, I shudder whenever some starts a statement with that tired phrase, because the plain truth is that everyone does NOT, nor believes any statement that begins thus...

...that "Neo-Conservative Republicans" are in charge of the Governmental/Corporate Power Structure. War = Profits for the Military Industrial Complex (Pss... Which they Co-incidentally OWN) - as a Matter of fact Senator McCain made a statement that this was "War Profiteering". In addition the Neo-Cons Like Rumsfeld & Cheney are 100% Zionists - so Israel was also a factor.

Yadda yadda yadda... would you mind providing any proof you might have for that contention? Plain unvarnished opinions just don't fly.

I took a jog around my neighborhood recently - Some guy had a Mural painted on the Spare Tire Compartment on the Back of his Vehicle -> Big American Flag "To all the Boys that lost their Lives on 9/11 we will never forget you". Something touching like that - the only Ironic thing is that his "Vehicle" was a HUGE HUMVEE TANK (I would be surprised if it made more than 10 M.P.G.)!!! Do you not see the Hypocrisy in this?

Nope. A <> B. The two are NOT related, as I have already discussed at length above. Would you like to discuss the REASONS the Islamic Fundamentalists dislike us, our would you like to continue to try to say that it is oil... because the plain facts, and THEIR OWN STATEMENTS, contradict this statement.

We can NOT have it both ways!!! Do you ever hear our "Leaders" ever say anything like "we need to CONSERVE OIL - lets be more efficient" –
Of-Course not - this is what it means to be a "Conservative"?

P.S. Guess who owns the Oil Companies too.

Well, both parties own the oil companies, unless you can prove to me that the owners of all the oil companies are conservatives. As for oil use, well, Americans WANT big cars, and are willing to pay the price to use them. If small, efficient cars were wanted, the industry would make them, but since you can't sell those little tin boxes, you are complaining about/to the wrong folks.

Quote: "The two are NOT related, as I have already discussed at length above. Would you like to discuss the REASONS the Islamic Fundamentalists dislike us, or would you like to continue to try to say that it is oil".

The Islamic Fundamentalists hate us for a lot of reasons - I am not too fond of them either. Primarily it is a continuing CULTURE CLASH between the West & Islam.

Getting back to the main point of contention. Would you say that we have Lots & Lots of Oil that is Produced here in the U.S.A. or would you say that we Import the majority of our oil from other countries. Venezuela is a big Producer - but the Region of the World that is the Biggest Producer - were the U.S. Imports the Majority of its Oil is the Middle East. Would you call this a Crisis or are you OK with it - Part of the Global Economy - with the occasional Imperialistic Crusade & all.

Quote: "As for oil use, well, Americans WANT big cars, and are willing to pay the price to use them."

Ah Americans seem to want a lot of things don't they. Some would say that Americans seem to want it ALL! So Capitalism really does Rule the Herd & the end of the day! The only Problem is that the PRICE is quite high - sometimes its not just Money - Sometimes its Blood.

So ok lets stop crying over 9/11 in that Case. Ever hear of Karma? We can't just continue to use/view the rest of the World as our TOILET & expect them to Love us.

Oh Yeah:

Quote: "If it were true, we would have invaded Saudi Arabia, deposed the rulers there, and installed our own government and not messed around with Sadaam. After all, the House Saud IS funding terrorists, training, sheltering, and teaching... AND, Saudi Arabia is where the oil".

After all, the House Saud IS funding terrorists, training, sheltering, and teaching -> TRUE!!!

AND, Saudi Arabia is where the oil -> I hate to inform you but we have had U.S. Troops stationed in Saudi Arabia guarding the Oil Wells for a Long Time Now.

We would have invaded Saudi Arabia, deposed the rulers there -> This is NOT going to Happen!
President Bush & Prince Bandar are best Buddies after all - even though the Saudis Routinely Insult us - I wonder why that is? Maybe we should ask Daddy Bush!

That’s OK - the MONSTER that Saudi Arabia helped create -
"Al-Queada" - has officially turned on them too! "Al-Queada" has already launched attacks in Saudi Arabia a number of times & wishes to Overthrow the "Kingdoms" Corrupt Saudi Royal House Monarchy/Government.


[edit on 13-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 13-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Getting back to the main point of contention. Would you say that we have Lots & Lots of Oil that is Produced here in the U.S.A. or would you say that we Import the majority of our oil from other countries.

We, like MOST industrialized nations, import most of our oil. Ironically, most of the oil we pump is sold overseas... that should be illegal.

Venezuela is a big Producer - but the Region of the World that is the Biggest Producer - were the U.S. Imports the Majority of its Oil is the Middle East. Would you call this a Crisis or are you OK with it - Part of the Global Economy - with the occasional Imperialistic Crusade & all.

Personally, if it were up to me, I would halt all oil imports in ten years, make it illegal, period on decreasing volume every year, 10% less the first year and so on until we were importing ZERO barrels.,I would then start in on a crash program, akin to the effort that went into the Manhattan project to deveolp the first nuclear weapon to develop a hydrogen/solar based economy for generating electricity and driving our vehicles, as well as to develop entirely synthetic non petroleum based replacements for all petrochemical products.

But that is just me. Let the folks that have oil drink it and eat sand.

Originally posted by Theron Dunn
As for oil use, well, Americans WANT big cars, and are willing to pay the price to use them.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Ah Americans seem to want a lot of things don't they. Some would say that Americans seem to want it ALL! So Capitalism really does Rule the Herd & the end of the day! The only Problem is that the PRICE is quite high - sometimes its not just Money - Sometimes its Blood.

So ok lets stop crying over 9/11 in that Case. Ever hear of Karma? We can't just continue to use/view the rest of the World as our TOILET & expect them to Love us.

I think that is a incorrect view of world politics. Though I do find commonality in your position... and irony, that "environmentalists" are okay with pumping oil "over there" where they do not have to see oil derricks and such, and fight like the very devils they are to prevent drilling off shore and in ANWR.

No, we want what we want, as does the rest of the world, and make no mistake, they all want all the things we have, right or wrong, and THAT is one of the biggest objections the terrorists have... everyone WANTS to be American... except our Canadian brothers, and they just want most of all NOT to be French...

If we were serious about conserving and recycling, we could really jump on it, but most Americans only want to conserve and recycle when it is not inconvenient, and as for gas... well, as long as it keeps flowing out of the pumps, they are ok, damn the prices full speed ahead, and you KNOW that is true. Railing against it is a foolish waste of time and energy, so to speak.

Raise the prices, add taxes and excises, raise vehicle fees, penalize SUV drives, and we will simply pay the taxes and move forward. No, we need to stop trying to penalize and start into a program, a SERIOUS program, to replace petrochemicals with renewal resources, and not corn alcohol.

Make the technology FREE to anyone that wants to manufacture a device, tax incentivize the change, and people will vote with their wallets, as they ALWAYS do in this country. But neither side will do this, each for their own "reasons"... we won't do anything until the pumps start running dry and we start sitting in lines again to get a gallon of gas. THEN the American people, bless their black flabby hearts, will get off the dime, raise a scream, and force "the guvmint" to "do something".

Market forces at work. ya gotta love it.

OK Brother Dunn - now you are making a good point! You also provide a Plan & Solution to the Problem. Americans Vote with their Dollars indeed. No I am not a Socialist -> I think that the Free Market is the Best thing about this Country as a Matter of fact!

I just wish people would be more Socially Conscious - understand that their actions have an effect on not only their own lives - but the
ENTIRE PLANET & ALL the Beings in it!!! Of-Course you also state why the solution won't be put into place -> People just don't care. They don't worry or do anything about it until it is TOO LATE!

[edit on 13-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I too wish we were more socially conscious, though I am sure we might differ on what that means...

Right now, no one sees the reason for conservation and recycling. Even our politicians only give it lip service, and fools like Greenpeace, ELF, and the Sierra Club actually do more damage than they prevent, both to the environment and to society.

Eventually we will get Hydrogen Power. We are already taking baby steps, what with the hybrid cars and California's Hydrogen experiment and fuel cell development. When the price comes down to a point where it is useful and cheap and convenient, more so than dealing with the power grid and gas prices, then people will change... until then, we will just muddle on through.

Change is coming, you can smell it in the air (literally in LA)...

Well as you prob realize - I am a Big Computer guy. I am a Big Fan of the Hybrid Technology. My dad has One. I have my Eye on the Honda Accord Hybrid. Hydrogen is still pretty Radical. It is such an Evolutionary step to go - Why don't we just Beef up the Computer & Battery in the car & have the Computer Calculate when to Use 100% Gas Power - 100% Electric Power - or a Combination of Both - in order to make it as Efficient as possible. Hybrids make an Average 50 MPG!!!

Switching it up - the one thing that Green Peace really brought to my attention is that some Corporations are Genetically Altering our
Food Supply (Vegies, Fruits & Animals hence also Dairy) - I think that we are getting into dangerous territory here. What about the Risk of Mutation?



[edit on 14-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Well as you prob realize - I am a Big Computer guy. I am a Big Fan of the Hybrid Technology. My dad has One. I have my Eye on the Honda Accord Hybrid. Hydrogen is still pretty Radical. It is such an Evolutionary step to go - Why don't we just Beef up the Computer & Battery in the car & have the Computer Calculate when to Use 100% Gas Power - 100% Electric Power - or a Combination of Both - in order to make it as Efficient as possible. Hybrids make an Average 50 MPG!!![/QUOTE]

Ok, first of all, battery powered USEFUL cars are still science fiction. Second, battery powered cars, or hybrid cars are undercover environmental hazards. Those batteries have to be replaced every three to five years, and are hazardous waste when they are replaced, and are "expensive" in terms of resources and money.

Second, the energy storage density in today's batteries are not high enough for them to be useful in other than commuting, and then only over short distances... less than 100 miles per day for the most part, and hybrid cars are STILL burning gasoline...

Hydrogen has its own challenges, not the least of which is storage, both for distribution and for use... it is MUCH more volatile than gasoline. Second, hydrogen has infrastructure challenges... cracking it, storing it, moving it, dispensing it. If it can be created by trickling elelctricity from solar panels, then anyone can create it, so there is no financial incentive to create the infrastructure to dispense it... so while it is better for the environment, unless someone develops a station that cracks it at home, compresses and stores it and dispenses it at home, and also provides hydrogen to home fuel cells, it is not going to take off in the business sense.

Switching it up - the one thing that Green Peace really brought to my attention is that some Corporations are Genetically Altering our
Food Supply (Vegies, Fruits & Animals hence also Dairy) - I think that we are getting into dangerous territory here. What about the Risk of Mutation?

You have less chance of mutation from genetic engineering than you do from normal environmental factors... in fact, probably less, since you are engineering for a specific gene sequence. The problem I see is that genetic engineering creates less biodiversity, which can create a problem is something like a potato blight strikes a particular crop... like corn, and wipes it out.

I like genetically engineered foods for a whole host of reasons, but see the biodiversity problem as a serious one. Twenty years ago, there were 40 varieties of corn. today there are TWO. Same for many other crops, and that has nothing to do with genetic engineering, but solely on hybridization.