mason challenge for terrorism and things

I am not talking about you Slandering a person - I am talking about you Slandering FreeMasonry - There are obviously Masons on this site - so you are Slandering all of them Collectively.

You want examples - well lets just look at the things that you posted in this very Thread: (QUOTE)

"a mason letting a known butcher (mass murderer) go free if the murderer was a mason?

a mason lying in court to protect a brother mason accused of
*Child Molestation*?

a mason helping terrorists if the terrorists are also masons and their cause needs help?

*Satanic Cult* ceremony of *Human Sacrifice* in California.

The *Egyptian-Masonic-Satanic Connection*

*STOP MASONIC CHILD ABUSE*

"allegations" that Freemasonry engages in *Satanic Ritual Abuse. ... Mind Control*

Masonic "Cult" Ritual Abuse

I am under the �mind control of masonry� " End Quote.

And so on & so forth - you have spewed stuff just like this on other Threads all over this Web Site.

What part of FREE in FREE-Masonry don't you understand BTW? No one forces you to do anything. People engage in Membership &
"Initiation Rituals" of their OWN FREE WILL!!!

No Children are Abused - Only Adult Males are Allowed.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

The pro-masons (not all) have called those that disagree with them everything from liars, to fools to idiots and more, yet you have the view that what you and those that post similar views to yours are always right and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong.

Well, that's true, on all levels. We are right, and you are wrong, but even beyond that, when you make an accusation, it is incumbent upon YOU, the accuser, to provide proof. What you have provided us is ignorance. What you post is as of little value as if I wrote: Well, based on PublicGadfly's postings, I think his sister is a whore, his father a pedophile, and his mother a mass murderer...

No facts, but a slew of beliefs... now, I do not think any of those things are true about you, I have no way of knowing, but that is all you have been doing.

Throwing 'DENY IGNORANCE' around like a potatoes or something while instead of admitting to a few miscreants within your own society (masonry) when proof upon proof has been posted seems ridiculous to me.

Uh, no one has done any such thing. I have written that on the RARE occassion when a mason breaks the law, Masonry acts and removes him from fraternity via a masonic trial. You have claimed we shield law breakers, and I have asked for proof, you have provided NONE. That, my friend, is YOU displyaing ignorance. Hence my asking you to adhere to the raison d etre of this forum, to DENY IGNORANCE, not to promulgate it.

Denial upon denial when a simple admission that �well, yeah but we're working on the problem - - - we're a big organization� would have served your stated goals far more than the blindness exhibited.

Well, if you offer ANY PROOF of your contention I might be willing to do so, but you have not. You talk about a shooting. We admit it happened. We ALSO noted that NOTHING is masonic ritual or practices or teachings involves a gun or gunplay... you see, even when you talk about a situation that occured, you blindly leap to the wrong conclusion, and when corrected, get your panties in a bunch...

You've read much of the threads- you really know why some people get so 'chaffed' about masonry yet from your posts I have seen nothing that remotely leads me to believe anything will change for you and a small group.

Well, you have provided nothing upon which I should think that Masonry SHOULD change. I mean, be specific... generalizations just don't hang, especially in a forum like this where your posts are being read by men who KNOW BETTER and are not shy about answering you with the truth.

Perhaps you are used to dealing with forums where you can spew any kind of venomous accusations (anonymously, I might add) without any kind of proof and have folks write... oh, yeah, that must be true... but here, DENYING IGNORANCE is the rule of the day, and your half baked groundless factless accusations just will not stand the light of rational examination.

Other masons have come into these threads � said their piece, generally been well received even if not agreed with and NOT gotten into the �circle the wagons� stance some of the posters herein seem to have developed.

Well, if what you mean by circle the wagons is that we all leap on your groundless accusations and point them out to you, then yes. If you mean to imply by your statement that we are all hidiing, well, then you best go back and read the posts again, because we have been answering you, and asking for proof... which you seem unwilling or unable to provide, which makes you look even more the fool... all you have to do is provide evidence to support your positions... oh, by the way, posting links that refute your own position make you look ridiculous. You ought to read your citations if you are going to offer them up...

Have masons committed murder- �yeah they have, it's a small problem that causes us more grief than we like but some masons lose sight - - - - -�

Wow, that would have been great.

You guys - - - - -

Well, if it were true, we might certainly have written that, but since it isn't, and you provided no proof that it is... why would we admit something like that?

Would you admit that your sister only turns tricks occassionaly, but otherwise is a paragon of virtue?

I mean, get real. Provide proof. If you show me where it has happened, I will be the first to admit you are right, but until then, you are doing NOTHING but spewing venom and trying to be the bully.

Here, however, and at any OTHER forum we find where masons are attacked, we will come and shine the light of truth, and demand proof. If you can't provide proof, well, you will just look foolish.

Now, here, the rule is DENY IGNORANCE. Please wipe you feet, turn on your brain, and do that. If you want to display ignorance, please go to FW, where that is the rule of the day.

Gadfly:

Half the game is not about ideas or theories, but how you deliver them.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Public Gad-Fly -> You are Obviously a Chronic "Anti-Mason". Let me guess - all Masons are the Boogie Men right? This is Childish!!! Listen a lot of the People on this Website ARE MASONS themselves - the rest are
ANTI-MASONS like yourself. So who are you preaching to? You think that you would want a Larger/Wider Audience. I have an Idea -> Why don't you take your PROPAGANDA somewhere ELSE!!!

Quote: "could happen again if the chosen people (Elite) need a excuse this time around to deflect anger somewhere." -> This has ALREADY Happened!

9/11 = Excuse for Endless War in the Middle East (and a Fascist Police State at Home). An excuse for "Civilized" Countries like U.S.A. & our "Democratic Allies" like Israel to totally wipe the Islamic Terrorist Heathens off the face of the Earth.

Well I am No Zionist - but at this point I think the Islamic Extremists Deserve what they have coming to them!!!

serpentine, what has iraq got to do with that???

www.robert-fisk.com...
www.informationclearinghouse.info...


[edit on 11-9-2004 by ThePunisher]

Punisher - I am sorry for Addressing both you & Gad-Fly in the same post. Lets look at your statement Separately:

Quote: "check first all the sides in ww2 being controlled by the same chosen people elite, check the low level and none chosen people Jews and freemasons (the majority) are used as whipping boys when the time need be, could happen again if the chosen people need a excuse this time around, to deflect anger somewhere."

OK - would you Mind Naming the "Elite" that were controlling both sides in WW2? You talk about the "Chosen People Elite" & then state that "Jews" & "FreeMasons" were not a part of this "Chosen Elite" - but just
"Whipping Boys".

And then you said -> "could happen again if the chosen people need a excuse this time around, to deflect anger somewhere."

Which I thought was Ironic - because I felt that it DID Happen Again. 9/11 FEELS like a HUGE EXCUSE to me for the Power Structure to do what ever it wants to in the World. A lot of people call the "War on Terror" WW3 or WW4. At the Same time there are a TON of Un-Answered Questions
about 9/11. It feels the same way to me - like there is a Group going around Incognito (does NOT want to be Recognized or Discovered) - Pulling everyone�s STRINGS - in order to forward their own Agendas. Personally it makes me SICK!!!



[edit on 11-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I personally don't see how the "war on terror" can be won, short of killing every muslim in the world that gets "out of line"... and I do not even like the concept of getting out of line...

What are we to do? This is not a state vs state battle, as all wars prior to this have been for the last two thousand or so years, it is now a group of zealots attacking people that do not agree with their warped view of reality, and zealots that are willing to strap on a bomb and KILL innocents at that.

How do you deal with these folks without becoming them?

Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out may have been almost good enough for Vietnam and Korea, when the enemy was amorphous but targetable, but today, what shall we do? Destroy every mosque? Kill every cleric that calls for Jihad? kill every young man with a legitimate beef, or a perceived legitimate beef?

This is not going to be easy, the less so if they strike the US again in a major way, as I suspect they will before the elections... I keep hearing that they actually have nuclear weapons in the United States... if just one goes off in a major population center, I despair for the Muslims of the world. For there are those already calling for all Muslim "holy" places to be leveled by airstrikes, level to sand or glowing green glass... overreaction, to be sure, but when your enemy names himself as a muslim, hides in muslim holy places, and calls for war in the name of Islam, and the REST of Islam does NOTHING to stop them... how can you make a case NOT to react in this manner to the Islamic states that do nothing to stop it?

Its not a matter of Freemason vs Islam or Islam vs Freemasons, Jews and Christians anymore, its a war with a FEW, less than a 10th of a percent of the Muslim population of the world, but if the Muslim population does not rise up to stop these fanatics, and in fact, tacitly supports them, they make themselves the targets of the short tempered, loud mouthed, POLITICALLY CONNECTED angry person... and its easy to go from tolerance to attack... look how fast we went from tolerant to naked prisoners at the hands of a few soldiers in Iraq!

The anger and rage are just barely below the surface, held in check by laws and command authority and rational thought, but just barely, and a few more attacks will see the efforts ISRAEL has taken to protect itself called lenient...

Just MY opinion, mind you. I am afraid, not for what the terrorists can/will do to us, but of what WE, with our might unleashed in anger, would DO to them, adn what those actions will do to OUR conscience.

Terrorism can never be destroyed. This is a very basic truth.

It is shocking to assume that, as some say, one can "smoke 'em out." When the terrorists, half a world away, in the safety of their caves or the anonymity of say, a small village in the mountanis somewhere, hear this, small wonder why they smile and continue to plot.

How do you stop this? You don't. You can't. If a fly is buzzing about your head, you can waste time and energy trying to swat it. Best thing to do is to ignore it. But then, who will pay for the all the deaths? People demand justice.

Maybe the real answer, for the public and government alike, is to look to our own actions, our own hatreds, our own prejudices. How did I, my neighbour, my government, contribute to this?

We contribute to their hatred by our love of freedom of choice, of freedom of religion, of the right to vote and choose. To be acceptable to them, we must needs give up all the things that make us what we are, and become THEM...

That is NOT acceptable.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Punisher - I am sorry for Addressing both you & Gad-Fly in the same post. Lets look at your statement Separately:

Quote: "check first all the sides in ww2 being controlled by the same chosen people elite, check the low level and none chosen people Jews and freemasons (the majority) are used as whipping boys when the time need be, could happen again if the chosen people need a excuse this time around, to deflect anger somewhere."

OK - would you Mind Naming the "Elite" that were controlling both sides in WW2? You talk about the "Chosen People Elite" & then state that "Jews" & "FreeMasons" were not a part of this "Chosen Elite" - but just
"Whipping Boys".

And then you said -> "could happen again if the chosen people need a excuse this time around, to deflect anger somewhere."

Which I thought was Ironic - because I felt that it DID Happen Again. 9/11 FEELS like a HUGE EXCUSE to me for the Power Structure to do what ever it wants to in the World. A lot of people call the "War on Terror" WW3 or WW4. At the Same time there are a TON of Un-Answered Questions
about 9/11. It feels the same way to me - like there is a Group going around Incognito (does NOT want to be Recognized or Discovered) - Pulling everyone�s STRINGS - in order to forward their own Agendas. Personally it makes me SICK!!!

[edit on 11-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

"could happen again if the chosen people need a excuse this time around, to deflect anger somewhere."

yep i agree about 911, i was however reffering to the regular masons and what happened to them in ww2 germany.

Originally posted by ThePunisher

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Public Gad-Fly -> You are Obviously a Chronic "Anti-Mason". Let me guess - all Masons are the Boogie Men right? This is Childish!!! Listen a lot of the People on this Website ARE MASONS themselves - the rest are
ANTI-MASONS like yourself. So who are you preaching to? You think that you would want a Larger/Wider Audience. I have an Idea -> Why don't you take your PROPAGANDA somewhere ELSE!!!

Quote: "could happen again if the chosen people (Elite) need a excuse this time around to deflect anger somewhere." -> This has ALREADY Happened!

9/11 = Excuse for Endless War in the Middle East (and a Fascist Police State at Home). An excuse for "Civilized" Countries like U.S.A. & our "Democratic Allies" like Israel to totally wipe the Islamic Terrorist Heathens off the face of the Earth.

Well I am No Zionist - but at this point I think the Islamic Extremists Deserve what they have coming to them!!!

serpentine, what has iraq got to do with that???

www.robert-fisk.com...
www.informationclearinghouse.info...


[edit on 11-9-2004 by ThePunisher]

and what i mean here is what has iraq got to do with the designed 'war on terror'?
you said in your post "wipe em out"?.

[edit on 10/2/2004 by esther]

Theron, I respectfully disagree.

My opinion: It's not American freedoms, honour, etc., that they hate, it is how it has been expressed in their countries. They are not against democratic values as such - they could care less about waht goes on in America; they are against foreigners entering their land and exploiting them economically and politically. America's role in the Iran-Iraq war didn't help matters, for instance.

That's about all I'll say. I'm with Chomsky on these matters, actually, so read him if you want to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Either way, I'll be interested to see how American forieng policy will change if Kerry gets the big chair.

Originally posted by LTD602
Theron, I respectfully disagree.

My opinion: It's not American freedoms, honour, etc., that they hate, it is how it has been expressed in their countries. They are not against democratic values as such - they could care less about waht goes on in America; they are against foreigners entering their land and exploiting them economically and politically. America's role in the Iran-Iraq war didn't help matters, for instance.

That's about all I'll say. I'm with Chomsky on these matters, actually, so read him if you want to get a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Either way, I'll be interested to see how American forieng policy will change if Kerry gets the big chair.

Well, I understand what you are writing, but that is not what THEY are saying their objections to America are.. they say they object to our sexual freedom, our political freedom, our religious freedom, our movies and television which to a degree, embody those values (or lack thereof). They object to our riches, they object to our business,they object to women having the right to vote and appear in public without a leash.

they object to the fact that most of the world is EMBRACING those values, mores, customs and activities. They want the outside world to go away, so they can go on living in the stone age with their women as chattel and their imams as political/social/religious leaders... and they don't even agree with each other on which imam.

No, the problem is that the world is becoming America. You can see it in the French trying to restrict Americanisms in their language, in their theatre, in their art, in their politics, in everything. And failing.

America is the big dog, and everyone is trying to become us. Look at Japan, Inc. Go there, and see... they used to be anti anything foreign, now they talk, act, dress, think (to a degree) like Americans. Not that America is the greatest thing since sliced bread... oh, ok, so it IS the best thing since sliced bread, but my point is that we are successful, and the WORLD wants to be successful... except for certain brain dead religious zealots in the middle east, who are STILL fighting wars and battles lost two thousand years ago...

I do not claim to have the answer, but I know it is going to get real ugly before it gets better. These folks hate us, and everything we stand for, and are not looking for wealth, a better car, a better house, freedom, or any of the things we stand for... so we can offer them nothing they want, and total isolation from the world is just not something we can give them.

The plain fact is that much of Islam is beginning to accept western values, such as they are, our music, our television, our movies, our books, our magazines, our political thought... the youth see that there is a better life, and reach for it avidly, and these zealots can't handle that... they see us as a corrupter of their youth, all for simply being ourselves.

To satisfy them, we would have to give up everything that makes us the United States of America, and I for one, am not willing to do that, not for them, not for ANYONE. I am a veteran, and come to it, I would fight again today to keep this country safe.

Now THERE is a debate... what measures can we take/should we take to keep this country free, for every action we take to restrict the terrorists only restricts our freedom. Twenty years ago, I flew under false names, paid cash for my tickets, and carried on my luggage. Today, I have to provide two forms of ID to board, go through a personal examination, xray my luggage and go through a metal detector, and depend on some $7 per hour airport flunky to ensure my security while flying...

This is going to get REAL ugly before its done, and I fear for my muslim american brothers, and muslims all over the world. I am not a Muslim (why should I even need to write that???), but I fear for them. Terrible things happened after 9/11 to Muslims in this country. Beatings, shootings, harrassment, abuse... some lost their businesses because no one would patronize them, and they had nothing to do with the attacks.

Abu Grahib should scare us, for it was our children, our soldiers, defending us, that abused those prisoners, and felt GOOD about doing it, because those men were "the enemy". If we do not adhere closely to that which makes us honorable, we will quickly become them... for all the "right" reasons.

Very bad.

A phrase of yours really hit home, and in my view, represents the crux of the problem:

"The world is becoming America."

In your view, is this necesasrily healthy? Do you thnk even those who do not want this should accept it? There has, obviously, been some resistance to it . . . .



[edit on 11-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by theron dunn

Well, I understand what you are writing, but that is not what THEY are saying their objections to America are.. they say they object to our sexual freedom, our political freedom, our religious freedom, our movies and television which to a degree, embody those values (or lack thereof). They object to our riches, they object to our business,they object to women having the right to vote and appear in public without a leash.

I have to agree with LTD on this one. As someone mentioned on Bill Moyer's show the other day, Osama Bin Laden didn't just happen to stumble over the Bill of Rights somewhere in a cave in Afghanistan, and declare war on it. Those people don't care about the American way of life; they hate us because they see us as a great imperialist madman that is oppressing them.

I'm very aware of the Bush administration's line about "they hate freedom", but this is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. They don't care enough about freedom to hate it. Muhammed Atta, the 9/11 ringleader, spent the evening of Sept. 10 guzzling vodka at a strip joint, then leaving with a prostitute: hardly the actions of a devout Muslim angry at freedom. What they do hate is Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and the United States' inconsistency and hypocrisy in dealing with very real problems in the Middle East.

Note that I am not here defending terrorists in any way, but if we are really going to defeat them instead of just using them as political campaign slogans, then we are going to have to understand them. And to understand them, we must first be aware of a fact of nature: when people feel bullied into a corner by someone stronger than them, they are liable to strike out violently and erratically, and this is what brings about terrorism. It's why the Serbians used terror against the Austrians that led to WWI, why the Communists and Nazis used revolutionary terror against their ideological enemies, why the IRA uses terror in Northern Ireland, and why some Arabs use terror against the US and Israel.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by LTD602


A phrase of yours really hit home, and in my view, represents the crux of the problem:

"The world is becoming America."

In your view, is this necesasrily healthy?

I know this was directed to Theron and not me, but your statement reminded me of a quote from Nietzsche: "Wherever Germany penetrates, she ruins culture".

Personally, I think we've got a lot of work to do on our society before it's even close to be ready for exportation. If that is accomplished, the world would happily receive our system, without us trying to force-feed it, and they would not be legislating against it (as Theron says the French do) if they thought it was healthy.

Fiat Lvx.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by LTD602


A phrase of yours really hit home, and in my view, represents the crux of the problem:

"The world is becoming America."

In your view, is this necesasrily healthy? Do you thnk even those who do not want this should accept it? There has, obviously, been some resistance to it . . . ...

Well if we were forcing them, yes, it would be bad. But since we are not, and it is the world emulating us because we are successful, i would have to say that no, it is not bad, for we are also, in some small ways, (the US) becoming the world, as well.

Is it healthy? Hmmm, I would say that the question is like asking how yellow smells. It is what it is... like anything offered and accepted, there are no victims only willing participants. There has ALWAYS been resistance to new ideas, from Grog in his cave resisting the idea of fire to terrorists in their caves refusing to accept the idea that women ARE our equals... not necessarily in strength, but in character, in brains, in emotional strength and fortitude, in all the things that matter.

Change... is. Accept it or die, that is the choice, not from me at the hands of any other person or group, but from NATURE. Time does not stand still, and neither does progress. If those folks want to live in the middle ages or in the stone age for that matter, I really don't care, they are welcome to whatever it is that they want. What I object to is their trying to shove it down my throat at the muzzle point of an AK-47 assault rifle or through the use of explosives in crowded areas.

The fact is that they are really no different from the Amish... in a different way. The amish cling to the past, to a simpler time, and they are losing their youth to the present every year. their communities get smaller, and no one intrudes on them, and people allow them to live their simple life... but none the less, change is coming, and they slowly fade away, as the Neandertal did in the face of the Cro Magnon... change simply is...

Anyone that stands in the way of change is like a stone in the river... slowly eroded away until there is nothing left.

I have no problem with religious fundies, really. I just want them to stay out of MY way, and out of the way of the rest of the world. they can erode away in peace off in some far distanct land, hallelujah, just don't come packing bombs into my country and expect me to maintain my tolerance... As in Tibet, you can stick with the old ways, until the modern comes in and sweeps you away.

The taliban/al quaeda etc are the past, and while I welcome them to keep to the past, I also demand from them the same rights I grant them... to be left alone to my own devices, else the tolerance turns to self preservation... and while I grant that they may feel they are acting in self preservation, they are the minority, and have no right to dictate to the rest of the world, a world, by the way, that is willing to let them alone.

But their actions are denying US our freedoms, and that is simply not acceptable.

You seem to suggest that "changed" is defined by those who benefit from it, and/or those who view it as profitable. How about the rights of those who DO NOT share that view? Who view change as a threat? What about their voice? Are they ever justified in taking up arms against 'change", or rather, the purveyors of this change. I do not believe in accepting chagne simply because amajority decides it should happen - i.e., democracy.

Then again, democracy demonstrably WORKS, right? Will it work for everyone, do you think?

This has turned int o an interesting conversation.

Originally posted by LTD602
You seem to suggest that "changed" is defined by those who benefit from it, and/or those who view it as profitable. How about the rights of those who DO NOT share that view?

Hmmm, I have no problem with discussion, what I guess I have a problem with is violence, random violence, to stop the changes. But here is thought... life IS change, for good or bad, every breath brings about change, right, wrong or indifferent. Fighting against change is shoveling water against the tide... What about the rights of those that do not accept chage?

they are free to ignore change, they are free to withdraw from the change...but their freedom ENDS where mine begins. AND, the people they should be fighting are their own children, who are adopting OUR culture faster than they are accepting their own native culture. that will NOT stop, and they are shoveling water with a teaspoon as they try to stop the inevitable.

Its not a matter of right and wrong, or rights of the majority over the minority, it just ... is.

Who view change as a threat? What about their voice? Are they ever justified in taking up arms against 'change", or rather, the purveyors of this change. I do not believe in accepting chagne simply because a majority decides it should happen - i.e., democracy.

Then again, democracy demonstrably WORKS, right? Will it work for everyone, do you think?

This has turned int o an interesting conversation.

But its not a matter of majority rules or minority loss, its a matter of change. The smaller and weaker always emmulates the bigger and stronger... its human nature.

Quote: "What Does Iraq got to do with the designed 'war on terror'?"

Yes I agree - the Bush Administration is Playing a game with us!!! First of all you can't have a War on Terror - Terror is an Emotion - you have to have a War with the TERRORISTS. The Terrorists are International - hence it is a Global World War. Secondly will someone in the Government PLEASE Define Terrorism (Ashcroft still has not done this & it creeps me out). Obviously killing innocent civilians in Cowardly Sneak Attacks is Terrorism.

Getting back to your question - I have been thinking about it - I POSTED the SAME EXACT Question on another Thread here on ATS. The Bush Admin is Playing a Game with us - they are being Vague on Purpose. Who attacked us on 9/11 - "Al-Queada" - but it has been stated on ATS that "Al-Queada" is really just a WRAP UP term used for ALL Islamic Extremist/Terrorist Groups. They Hate us for very specific reasons - even if we take Israel out of the Equation - the U.S. has a History of viewing the World as simply another resource to SUCK DRY - great lets take Consumerism Global - Hence France forget Gourmet Food, Try McDonalds - you'll Love it - guess what they don't.

Also who are the head Terrorists - Figure Head & Former CIA Agent Osama Bin Laden? Get Real. Former CIA Agent Saddam Hussein - not likely. Yes there are other Leading Terrorists - which have been officially Identified - But the U.S. is hesitant to Name other Countries. I have got News for you folks - Iran Hates US, Pakistan & Egypt are certainly NOT Allies & Nether are the SAUDI Arabians. Did you know that after 9/11 when we called the Saudis out they then proceeded to Pull BILLIONS of Dollars out of the U.S. Stock Market - we have got to STOP BUYING OIL from them!!!

And so we get to another OIL rich Country -> Iraq. We never liked Saddam - he WAS quite a Monster indeed. But After 9/11 just Afghanistan would not do. So here is a country that was in a position to Attack Israel - was RICH in OIL & to top it all off - had a weak Military - THAT was the Key - The U.S. analyzed it & thought "We can Win". Indeed we did Win - The Initial Battle - but they made a Huge "Miscalculation" when they realized that Terrorist Tactics are just like the Guerilla Tactics that were used in Vietnam. So that is what we have in Iraq now - Vietnam Part 2.


[edit on 12-9-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]