Who's up for the challenge ?

theron

Your allusion is simply another useless commentary, without any intellectually redeeming qualities, and a violation of the TOS as being completely outside the topic... you think you might try to stay focused?

I would call you (theron) Mr. TOS but you would report me for violating the TOS by calling you a TOS.

I just bet that a google search of TOS in the last two weeks on this board would have Bro. Theron's name attached more than everyone else put together.

I can 'perceive' it now: he and 'the wife' walking down the aisle at the mall-
him doodling along, sniffing a lot, she wearing a T-shirt that says �I'm with Stupid�

I laugh a lot at this stuff.

If I �allude� can I become a mason by �delude?�

Questions like that bother me sometimes, then I realize I just have gas.

Mirthful Me

We will answer any question you pose without compromising our obligation to the Craft, but it is incumbent upon you to make fair use of the information provided.

Let me see if I understand this-

Oh, what obligation is that? Don't tell me the obligation, just tell me what it is, O.K.?

Clear this up and �meet the challenge�????

Exactly what is 'fair use?' I don't want to make mistakes with this and all.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

theron

Your allusion is simply another useless commentary, without any intellectually redeeming qualities, and a violation of the TOS as being completely outside the topic... you think you might try to stay focused?

I would call you (theron) Mr. TOS but you would report me for violating the TOS by calling you a TOS.

I just bet that a google search of TOS in the last two weeks on this board would have Bro. Theron's name attached more than everyone else put together.

I can 'perceive' it now: he and 'the wife' walking down the aisle at the mall-
him doodling along, sniffing a lot, she wearing a T-shirt that says �I'm with Stupid�

Gadfly, would you please lay off the insults a little bit? No need to include the implication that Theron sniffs crack (again). Calling him stupid is also unnecessary.



[edit on 8-9-2004 by LTD602]

[edit on 8-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
I can 'perceive' it now: he and 'the wife' walking down the aisle at the mall-
him doodling along, sniffing a lot, she wearing a T-shirt that says �I'm with Stupid�

Comments like that are certainly not needed.

I think someone (MM?) said:

We will answer any question you pose without compromising our obligation to the Craft, but it is incumbent upon you to make fair use of the information provided.

That was an honest statement. Just because someone does have the same views or because they won't tell you things they have worked hard to learn , doesn't make them a candidate for insults.

Try and save the personal attacks, ok?

[edit on 8-9-2004 by ZeddicusZulZorander]

Originally posted by theron dunn
No sweat. Scottish Rite is another body of masonry that any master mason can join. Its rituals further expand upon the moral and social lessons taught in the first three degrees, but are in no way "higher" than or superior to the primary three degrees. For more information about the Scottish Rite, go Here.

Now, as to books to read for more information on Masonry:

Born in Blood by John Robinson
Pilrim's Path by John Robinson
Temple and the Lodge by Baigent and Leigh
Bridge to Light by Dr. Rex R. Hutchens, 33�
Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike
Everything I need to Know about Masonry I learned as an Entered Apprentice by Stepehen Dafoe

Also, see www.masonicinfo.com, which has a great search feature, and is well laid out and informative.

In Freemasonry, there is no higher degree than that of Master Mason (the Third Degree).-from the Shrine website.

There is another fine nugget of info. Maybe I missed something somewhere.



Oh, Mirthful Me you have a nice monkey. And nothing personal, but just because you say a thing doesn't make it necessarily true, false or neutral. One does not go into court unprepared. Think of it like this; I am from the great state of Missouri, "Show me!"

Are you chaps affilliated with the the KoC(Knights of Columbus)?

Are atheists muslums blacks women jews or liberals banned from joining?

And folks don't get defensive, we are here to learn!
Well some of us at least!

troylawson

[edit on 9-9-2004 by troylawson]

Atheists cannot join. A prerequisite is belief in a "Supreme Being."

Muslims can join. All faiths are welcomed.

Blacks can join.

Women cannot join. It is a fraternity.

The initiation ritual for first degree recruits symbolically strips the novice of his money to indicate his poverty of power and spirit without the Brotherhood. His trouser-leg is rolled up, his shirt opened" one shoe is removed to make him feel alienated, lonely and absurd. He is blindfolded and given a noose to wear to add to his vulnerability and sense of mortal despair. He is totally dependent on his fellow Masons and takes an oath of secrecy that is clearly against Humanist ethics. The convert accepts that "having his throat cut across, tongue torn out by the roots and buried in the sand" is the price to pay for speaking of the Masonic practices he witnesses.

HMmmmm I see why freemasons are not quick to talk about what goes on.

So do 33 degree masons drink wine from an upside down human skull when Initiation takes place? Its a simple yes or no question.

If you cannot answer that is it because you would get your tougne torn out? or simply you cannot disclose/varify the secrets?

why would you keep something like that secret?

You don't get your tongue torn out. lol.

I'm not sure if Masons drink wine out of a human skull during the 33rd degree ceremony.

If they did, why does it bother you? I think it would be interesting. The skull is obviously clean and dry, probably shellacked inside. I'm sure there's some symbolic significance to it.

I've seen people handle human skulls before. No big deal, really.

But in any case, I'm not Mason (yet), so I can't comment on what goes on during appendant degree ceremonies.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
The initiation ritual for first degree recruits symbolically strips the novice of his money to indicate his poverty of power and spirit without the Brotherhood. His trouser-leg is rolled up, his shirt opened" one shoe is removed to make him feel alienated, lonely and absurd. He is blindfolded and given a noose to wear to add to his vulnerability and sense of mortal despair. He is totally dependent on his fellow Masons and takes an oath of secrecy that is clearly against Humanist ethics. The convert accepts that "having his throat cut across, tongue torn out by the roots and buried in the sand" is the price to pay for speaking of the Masonic practices he witnesses.

HMmmmm I see why freemasons are not quick to talk about what goes on.

I think anyone who has even casually looked at this forum and others will find the opposite is true: for the most part, Masons love talking about Masonry.
The above description of the First Degree is deceptive. The Candidate leaves his wallet in the prep room not because of "poverty of power" (whatever that means), but to enforce the truth that money is tangible, and cannot buy wisdom. Every Brother enters the Lodge for the firt time in a penniless state, and receives the teachings of the Fraternity for free.

Secondly, the manner in which is a Candidate is prepared concerns a dramatic method of bringing one in touch with the teachings of the Enlightenment. According to the Enlightenment thinkers, men in their natural state are blinded by superstition, bound by religious and political tyranny, and are covered with false philosophies. The Candidate's appearance represents this....and his being brought forth into Masonic light finally removes these chains.
As for being a violation of "humanist ethic", this charge is ironic indeed, seeing that for the past 350 years our critics in the church have opposed Freemasonry because it teaches "nothing but humanism".

So do 33 degree masons drink wine from an upside down human skull when Initiation takes place? Its a simple yes or no question.

No.
In several of the Pike revisions of the 30�, however, the Candidate does this. In the Legenda of the 30�, Pike explains this as being symbolic of the equality of all men in mortality, and was supposedly a part of the initiation rites of the Knights Templar. Needless to say, the "skulls" are plastic ones, lol.

If you cannot answer that is it because you would get your tougne torn out? or simply you cannot disclose/varify the secrets?
why would you keep something like that secret?

To begin with, Candidates are informed that the penalties for breaking Masonic obligations are censure, suspension, or expulsion, depending upon the gravity of the offense. The physical penalties are symbolic only; their military nature has suggested to some a connection with the Knights Templar.

It should also be noted that not all Grand Lodges even use the ancient penalties in their rituals anymore. Those who do, do so out of tradition, but it is stressed they are symbolic. The United Grand Lodge of England has removed them, as have the Grand Lodges of Scotland and Ireland, as have the Canadian Lodges who work in the Emulation Rite. They were removed from the Scottish Rite by Pike when he revised them in the late 19th century.

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by LTD602
You don't get your tongue torn out. lol.

I'm not sure if Masons drink wine out of a human skull during the 33rd degree ceremony.

If they did, why does it bother you? I think it would be interesting. The skull is obviously clean and dry, probably shellacked inside. I'm sure there's some symbolic significance to it.

I've seen people handle human skulls before. No big deal, really.

But in any case, I'm not Mason (yet), so I can't comment on what goes on during appendant degree ceremonies.

And you won't really be able to afterwards!

There is a difference between handling human skulls and drinking wine from them! Why does drinking wine from a dead persons head bother me, HMMmmmmmm let me think about that!! Even if the skull was decorated its still a dead persons head!!!!! Human Bone goblet, beautiful.

Drinking wine in the church is symbolic of Drinking the blood of Christ. I know it may not be the same in this instance but the language of masonry is symbolic, so it must mean something, else it wouldn't happen.

Masonic light, thank you for answering.. However, I do not believe the part when you say the Human skulls were made of plastic. I don't think someone would reach the top whilst drinking from fine glasses to get there. Then finally reaching the top only to drink from a plastic human skull, especially in the past.

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Masonic light, thank you for answering.

. However, I do not believe the part when you say the Human skulls were made of plastic. I don't think someone would reach the top whilst drinking from fine glasses to get there. Then finally reaching the top only to drink from a plastic human skull, especially in the past.

Errrr.... do you think we Freemasons have a monopoly on skeletons? And do you really think that in these modern times we find such things palatable? Things move on dude.
You're probably aware of the bones used in the 3rd degree? Let me tell you, in my Lodge we use the bones of a lamb!!!! They're symbolic - nothing more. In some Lodges I've visited, they use pictures of bones to represent the same thing. Don't naturally assume that the Freemasonry of today is identical to the Freemasonry of yesteryear. We are just like anyone else in the way that we move forward from the past. Heh, some antis will even use the fact that things have changed as an argument against us. It's daft to state that everything has stayed the same just to prove a point whilst using the opposite argument to prove another.

Thanks.

Answers are coming now. I was concerned about the lack of them before.

So why would freemason use human skulls in the past? When was the last use of a human skull for a cup? what date? Albert pike era?

You use bones of lambs? Jesus is considered the lamb in the Bible is it symbolic of that? what is it symbolic of?

do Freemasons consider Jesus a divine being? I know you can believe what you want but as a whole does masonry consider jesus a divine being?

You say you must believe in a higher power, a supreme being to join? does Satan count? (that is an honest question). Can someone who believes Satan is the ruling supreme being join masonry?

keep the answers coming! if you are allowed.

Oh leveller,

I was under the impression 33 degrees go up to washington to the grand lodge thing for the main degree??? in that case I guess they would keep ONE special human skull cup. I didn't think you had a skull per lodge!!

OH AND Leveller, I wasn't aware you use bones in the 3rd degree. Honestly. What do you use them for? I only read about the skull, what else do you use lamb bones for?

LTD602, it doesn't help the masons when you say you don't have a problem with drinking from a human skull!! you have much to learn I guess!

[edit on 9-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Thanks.

Answers are coming now. I was concerned about the lack of them before.

So why would freemason use human skulls in the past? When was the last use of a human skull for a cup? what date? Albert pike era?

You use bones of lambs? Jesus is considered the lamb in the Bible is it symbolic of that? what is it symbolic of?

do Freemasons consider Jesus a divine being? I know you can believe what you want but as a whole does masonry consider jesus a divine being?

You say you must believe in a higher power, a supreme being to join? does Satan count? (that is an honest question). Can someone who believes Satan is the ruling supreme being join masonry?

keep the answers coming! if you are allowed.

Oh leveller,

I was under the impression 33 degrees go up to washington to the grand lodge thing for the main degree??? in that case I guess they would keep ONE special human skull cup. I didn't think you had a skull per lodge!!

OH AND Leveller, I wasn't aware you use bones in the 3rd degree. Honestly. What do you use them for? I only read about the skull, what else do you use lamb bones for?

LTD602, it doesn't help the masons when you say you don't have a problem with drinking from a human skull!! you have much to learn I guess!

[edit on 9-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

7th Chakra.

We use the bones of a lamb for no other reason than that is what our local butcher gave us. They symbolise the fact that there is only one certainty - we all leave this life in the end. They also serve to remind us that we are only on this Earth for a short time, and therefore each individual should leave a mark of goodness that he is remembered for. There is nothing sinister or nasty in this. I guess a lot of people on the outside looking in, might find this morbid, but personally I find it a good moral lesson and one can't deny that it's the truth - after all, we do all die.
I'm suprised that you were unaware of this, you can find reference to the symbolism with regards to this elsewhere on the net.

As for Jesus? Freemasonry doesn't tend to single him out in particular. But then don't forget that we aren't a Christian organisation. Proclaiming Jesus as god in a Lodge where there may be people of other religions isn't the right thing to do. But I have heard references to "Our Lord Jesus" made by high ranking masons in the Temple when referring to definitions of symbolism. And there are certainly many Freemasons who believe in Jesus and are Christians. Jesus as god comes down to personal belief and as Freemasonry itself does not dictate the personal belief of the individual it neither openly promotes him or actively refutes him. As one who personally believes in the word of Christ, I can tell you for a fact that I find nothing in Freemasonry that is anti-Jesus. But just because I believe in Christ does not mean that I would expect him to be proclaimed as a saviour to a Muslim brother or a Buddhist.

As for Satanists? Satan isn't a Supreme Being in the eyes of Freemasonry. His followers are not also believed to be of moral worth - true Satanists only look after number one don't they? We therefore don't accept them.

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
So why would freemason use human skulls in the past? When was the last use of a human skull for a cup? what date? Albert pike era?

Again, let me state that human skulls were never used in this regard in Freemasonry. The skulls used were theatrical props, and made of plastic.
The 30� in the Scottish Rite is called Knight Kadosh, and is a degree of Templary. Supposedly, the medieval Knights Templar used the skull cap of a fallen comrade to serve wine to the Novitiate, after which each Knight present would also drink. This was to teach the equality of all men in death, and to remind the Novitiate he may be called to lay down his life on the battlefield.

When Pike revised the degrees, he included this ceremony in the revision (see Pike's "The Magnum Opus" and Legenda on the 30�). But, of course, Masonic Knights Kadosh do not have the actual human skulls of fallen Knights Templar, and plastic props are used. It has the same symbolic meaning.

You use bones of lambs? Jesus is considered the lamb in the Bible is it symbolic of that? what is it symbolic of?

I would assume they are symbolic emblems of mourning, as revealed in the Third Degree. However, in most of the US, no bones are used in the ceremonies. Here, the Emblems of Mourning in the Third Degree consist only of the Coffin, Spade, Setting Maul, and Sprig of Acacia.

do Freemasons consider Jesus a divine being? I know you can believe what you want but as a whole does masonry consider jesus a divine being?

No. However, certain Masonic organizations do. In the York Rite, one must be a Christian to become a Knight Templar or be admitted into the Order of the Red Cross of Constantine. A Brother must also be a Christian to join the Masonic Rosicrucian Society and Royal Order of Scotland. In the UK and Canada, one must be a Christian in order to receive the 18� and higher degrees in the Scottish Rite.
In every country except Scandinavian nations, the Blue Lodge is non-sectarian. In the US, the Scottish Rite is non-sectarian.

You say you must believe in a higher power, a supreme being to join? does Satan count? (that is an honest question). Can someone who believes Satan is the ruling supreme being join masonry?

This is sort of a slippery slope because it makes a fallacious assumption. The existence of Satan is a belief held by Christians, Muslims, and some Jews. Therefore, to believe in Satan, one must of necessity be a follower of one of those religions, who do not believe that Satan is a supreme being.

There is indeed a "Church of Satan" in the US, whose members call themselves "Satanists". But they do not believe in the existence of Satan, and only use this as a symbol to mock Christians, whom they view as hypocrites.

The only notable exceptions to the above "rules" are the scattered "devil worshipers", who are generally emotionally-disturbed teens, and use this kind of "satanism" as a form of rebellion. Obviously, this type would not qualify for Masonry.

I was under the impression 33 degrees go up to washington to the grand lodge thing for the main degree???

Every so often (usually once every 2 years), the 33� is conferred in the main Temple Room at the headquarters of the Supreme Council in Washington, but the degree is also usually conferred locally in each state. When one is elected to the 33�, he has the choice of going to Washington for it, or waiting until it's done locally. Most do it locally, unless they want to incur travel expenses, lodging expenses, etc.

Fiat Lvx.

ML:

So if I wanted to be a Scottish Rite Mason in Canada, and I wanetd to move beyond the 18th degree, I MUST be a Christian? If I am not, then I'm . . . . out of luck ??? End of the road?

[edit on 9-9-2004 by LTD602]

Attention Inner Court 33degree Masons:

Take the Prometheus approach and reveal all the "secrets" Worse thing that could happen is being chained to a rock where possibly the double headed eagle would eat your liver.

Fret not, Prometheus was eventually rescued by Hercules and spared.

We can go on for infinity saying "from what I have heard" "from what I have read" Step up to be the 33 degree knight you are and reveal all of the secrets for if you do not, the so called fantasies and misunderstandings will continue. Manufacturing "front" secrets to hide the"true" secrets are not permitted.

Besides, what is there to hide? Charity/Goodworks is the perfect cover. How can someone bash people that help children.

The will of the Father? Doesn't that mean doing all kinds of good charitable works and helping people? Isn't that the will of the Father? Being a good person and living a good clean life? Aren't those the things that will get you into heaven? But look at what the Word of God tells us.
Romans 4:2 "If Abraham was justified by works, then he has something to boast about, but not before God."

In fact there are many verses in the Bible that tell us that our good works by themselves will do absolutely nothing to gain for us eternal life.
Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousness are like filthy rags."
members.tripod.com...

The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers, which are cited to justify it.

President John F. Kennedy
Address to newspaper publishers, April 27, 1961.

A man does what he must-in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures-and that is the basis of all human morality.
John F. Kennedy





[edit on 9-9-2004 by project_pisces]

Originally posted by LTD602
ML:

So if I wanted to be a Scottish Rite Mason in Canada, and I wanetd to move beyond the 18th degree, I MUST be a Christian? If I am not, then I'm . . . . out of luck ??? End of the road?

It is my understanding that the Supreme Council of Canada follows the British model, which requires Scottish Rite Masons to be Christians. If I'm in error, would a Brother in Canada mind commenting?

Fiat Lvx.

To project pisces:

Let me pre-empt my Mason friends on these baords and answer with:

No.

(Fourth Amendment.)

[edit on 9-9-2004 by LTD602]

Apparently, the Supreme Council 33� of Canada no longer requires that Master Masons be Christians in order to join the Scottish Rite. See:

scottishritemasons-can.org...

Is there ever power struggle between masons? knights? rosciuans (can't spell it) york rites, scottish rites etc?

Do roscuisans (I know!!) interact with masons? also do Skull and bone members interact with Masons?

Is there a part of masonry that you yourselfs do no understand because you have not reached the top?

As you might have guessed I feel like asking questions today!

DELETE!!! sorry

[edit on 9-9-2004 by 7th_Chakra]