Who's up for the challenge ?

Thanks for doing the search, ML . . . much appreciated.

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Is there ever power struggle between masons? knights? rosciuans (can't spell it) york rites, scottish rites etc?

That depends on what you mean by "power struggle". Masonic government is very similar to US Constitutional government (the United States form of government is actually based on the Masonic model). Therefore, you will often have several different Brothers competing for the same office. This happens much like in political campaigns (without the mudslinging), and it ends on election day when the Lodge votes for its officers for the ensuing year.

Do roscuisans (I know!!) interact with masons? also do Skull and bone members interact with Masons?

Members of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society are, of course, Masons themselves. Skull and Bones are a college frat, but I assume their members probably know some Masons.
If you mean do we interact officially with non-Masonic fraternal groups, the answer is no.

Is there a part of masonry that you yourselfs do no understand because you have not reached the top?

I've heard a lot about "the top" from non-Masons on this forum; it's important to understand there is no "top". All Master Masons are equal. The Worshipful Master of a Lodge is merely the first among equals. After his term of office has expired, he returns to the sidelines, and someone else becomes Master.

Fiat Lvx.



[edit on 9-9-2004 by Masonic Light]

LTD602:

Pre-empt sounds awfully familiar

pre�empt or pre-empt ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-mpt)
v. pre�empt�ed, pre�empt�ing, pre�empts
v. tr.
To appropriate, seize, or take for oneself before others. See Synonyms at appropriate.

To take the place of; displace: A special news program preempted the scheduled shows.
To have precedence or predominance over: To gain possession of by prior right or opportunity, especially to settle on (public land) so as to obtain the right to buy before others.

I can see the significance of Skull and Bones Ch 322
Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Amendment 4? The Hush Law or the right..."do not speak of the secrets for they must never know."

And last but not least: Your signature betrays you.
signature
"'I must know the real truth, the truth beyond magic.'
'There is no truth beyond magic,' said the king. "
(The Magus, 1965)

"To gain possession of by prior right or opportunity."

I'm picking that one.

Before any Masons responded, I took the opportunity to respond, with the ovbious answer. The Masons, too, will have an opportunity to respond, but since I responded first, their opportunity, by default, will be after mine.

Oh yes, ans I also recommend "The Magus", by John Fowles, if I may. Great book.

To project pisces:

The Prince and the Magician

Once upon a time there was a young prince who believed in all things but three. He did not believe in princesses, he did not believe in islands, he did not believe in God. His father, the king, told him that such things did not exist. As there were no princesses or islands in his father's domains, and no sign of God, the prince believed his father.

But then, one day, the prince ran away from his palace and came to the next land. There, to his astonishment, from every coast he saw islands, and on these islands, strange and troubling creatures whom he dared not name. As he was searching for a boat, a man in full evening dress approached him along the shore.

"Are those real islands?" asked the young prince.
"Of course they are real islands," said the man in evening dress.
"And those strange and troubling creatures?"
"They are all genuine and authentic princesses."
"Then God must also exist!" cried the prince.
"I am God," replied the man in evening dress, with a bow.
The young prince returned home as quickly as he could.

"So, you are back," said his father, the king.
"I have seen islands, I have seen princesses, I have seen God," said the prince reproachfully.
The king was unmoved. "Neither real islands, nor real princesses, nor a real God exist."
"I saw them!"
"Tell me how God was dressed."
"God was in full evening dress."
"Were the sleeves of his coat rolled back?"
The prince remembered that they had been.
The king smiled. "That is the uniform of a magician. You have been deceived."

At this, the prince returned to the next land and went to the same shore, where once again he came upon the man in full evening dress.
"My father, the king, has told me who you are," said the prince indignantly.
"You deceived me last time, but not again. Now I know that those are not real islands and real princesses because you are a magician."
The man on the shore smiled. "It is you who are deceived, my boy. In your father's kingdom, there are many islands and many princesses. But you are under your father's spell, so you cannot see them."

The prince pensively returned home. When he saw his father he looked him in the eye.
"Father, is it true that you are not a real king, but only magician?"
The king smiled and rolled back his sleeves.
"Yes, my son, I'm only a magician."
"Then the man on the other shore was God."
"The man on the other shore was another magician."
"I must know the truth, the truth beyond magic."
"There is no truth beyond magic," said the king.
The prince was full of sadness. He said, "I will kill myself."
The king by magic caused death to appear. Death stood in the door and beckoned to the prince. The prince shuddered. He remembered the beautiful but unreal islands and the unreal but beautiful princess.
"Very well," he said, "I can bear it."
"You see my son," said the king, "you, too, now begin to be a magician."

- From The Magus, by John Fowles

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Is there ever power struggle between masons? knights? rosciuans (can't spell it) york rites, scottish rites etc?

Back in 1830 there was a power struggle between the two branches of Freemasonry, known as the "Antients" and the "Moderns". Both eventually merged. And that is why the administration body of Masonry in England is known as The "United" Grand Lodge.

www.grandlodge-england.org...

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Is there ever power struggle between masons? knights? rosciuans (can't spell it) york rites, scottish rites etc?

That depends on what you mean by "power struggle". Masonic government is very similar to US Constitutional government (the United States form of government is actually based on the Masonic model). Therefore, you will often have several different Brothers competing for the same office. This happens much like in political campaigns (without the mudslinging), and it ends on election day when the Lodge votes for its officers for the ensuing year.

Do roscuisans (I know!!) interact with masons? also do Skull and bone members interact with Masons?

Members of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society are, of course, Masons themselves

Double-double members of the masonic x-rated book club are also masons- that is not what was asked.

Quit slipping sideways on everything. Do you guys get some kind of Teflon award or something?

On masons 'running for office' within the lodge structure- yeah, no mud-slinging it is all by intimidation and innuendo now isn't it?

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Is there ever power struggle between masons? knights? rosciuans (can't spell it) york rites, scottish rites etc?

Back in 1830 there was a power struggle between the two branches of Freemasonry, known as the "Antients" and the "Moderns". Both eventually merged. And that is why the administration body of Masonry in England is known as The "United" Grand Lodge.

www.grandlodge-england.org...

They still take orders from the American lodge don't they?

The American lodge is supreme!

Everyone knows this~/

Originally posted by PublicGadfly

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
Is there ever power struggle between masons? knights? rosciuans (can't spell it) york rites, scottish rites etc?

That depends on what you mean by "power struggle". Masonic government is very similar to US Constitutional government (the United States form of government is actually based on the Masonic model). Therefore, you will often have several different Brothers competing for the same office. This happens much like in political campaigns (without the mudslinging), and it ends on election day when the Lodge votes for its officers for the ensuing year.

Do roscuisans (I know!!) interact with masons? also do Skull and bone members interact with Masons?

Members of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society are, of course, Masons themselves

Double-double members of the masonic x-rated book club are also masons- that is not what was asked.

Quit slipping sideways on everything. Do you guys get some kind of Teflon award or something?

On masons 'running for office' within the lodge structure- yeah, no mud-slinging it is all by intimidation and innuendo now isn't it?

Actually, it WAS what was asked.

Question: Is there ever power struggle between masons? knights? rosciuans
Answer: Yes.

Question: Do roscuisans (I know!!) interact with masons? also do Skull and bone members interact with Masons?
Answer: Yes, since Rosicrucians are Masons, there IS interaction as a matter of course.

Quite clear, Gadfly. Which part did you not understand ? 7th Chakra seems to understand just fine.

[edit on 9-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by PublicGadfly


They still take orders from the American lodge don't they?

The American lodge is supreme!

Errr. UGLE doesn't take orders from anyone. Each Grand Lodge is totally independent.
Yet again, you're way off the mark.

Originally posted by troylawson
Are you chaps affilliated with the the KoC(Knights of Columbus)?

Uh, no. They are Catholics, and are forbidden by the RCC to join masonry.

Are atheists muslums blacks women jews or liberals banned from joining?

Atheists and Women? NO, they can't be members.

Muslims, Blacks, Jews, liberals, conservative etc., yes, they can absolutely be members.

Originally posted by PublicGadfly


They still take orders from the American lodge don't they?

The American lodge is supreme!

Everyone knows this~/

Hate to be a bit picky here , as I am English , help Theron , but there is not an AMERICAN GRAND LODGE is there?

Yes, Bill... PublicGadfly is so full of falsehoods that there simply are not enough hours in the busy busy day to show the falsehoods of all his cut and paste nonsense.

Just for the record, there is NO American Grand Lodge. There are over 100 regular grand lodges in the United States. Usually there is one Prince Hall and one regular F&AM or AF&AM grand lodge in each state, and g-d alone knows how many pretenders, but, unlike the UK, which has the United Grand Lodge of England, the United States does not have any such organization.

George Washington was urged to CREATE on in the late 1700s, with him as the Supreme Grand Master or some such title, but he felt that American independence was such that there was no need for this type of organization. The Grand Masters from all Fifty states get together once per year to discuss common issues, but there is no central authority. Though we talk about a Supreme Grand Lodge or Grand Lodge of the United States, it is unlikely that this will ever occur.

thanks Bill.


By the way, for those of you who do not know, Bill McElligott is the founder of M.A.S.O.N., Masons Against Slanderous Offensive Nonsense, a global organization, of which I am a state representative, dedicated to responding to the slanders by folks like PublicGadfly, and to getting out the truth about Masonry. He is also the owner of Mason-Defender.com, the Ministry of Masons (MoM), and a man I am proud to call my friend.


[edit on 9/9/04 by theron dunn]

So basically a KoC member can't become a mason? Can a Catholic become a mason?

I noticed the "Christian" mason conspicuously failed to respond to some of 7th chakra's questions/concerns.

I thought Christians were charged to preach the Gospel to the world. That faith not works will get one to heaven(the Mormons believe the converse to my surprise). And that the thief, admited he was a thief and broke God's commandment, accepted his earthly punnishment and requested of Jesus to remember him when he enters His Kingdom.

Now going around not talking about and denying Jesus is not my idea of an association I want to be known for. I am also not down with being politically correct just to make others feel good.


If you truly believe these things, I now know that masonry is just not for me. But I will not bad mouth you for what you believe, as I also treat the Mormons the same way. Your beliefs just don't align with mine. But you may very well be good men. I do commend you all for the good works.

Thanks for the answers and the info!

troylawson

[edit on 10-9-2004 by troylawson]

Originally posted by troylawson
So basically a KoC member can't become a mason? Can a Catholic become a mason?

From the masonic point of view, any man with integrity and a faith in the supreme being can become a mason. WE have no problem with Catholics. The Pope, g-d bless him, still has a small challenge, though frankly, in the US that opposition is quickly fading away and I know many men who are RCC and KoC and are also masons.

I noticed the "Christian" mason conspicuously failed to respond to some of 7th chakra's questions/concerns.

I thought Christians were charged to preach the Gospel to the world. That faith not works will get one to heaven(the Mormons believe the converse to my surprise). And that the thief, admited he was a thief and broke God's commandment, accepted his earthly punnishment and requested of Jesus to remember him when he enters His Kingdom.

Now going around not talking about and denying Jesus is not my idea of an association I want to be known for. I am also not down with being politically correct just to make others feel good.

If you truly believe these things, I now know that masonry is just not for me. But I will not bad mouth you for what you believe, as I also treat the Mormons the same way. Your beliefs just don't align with mine. But you may very well be good men. I do commend you all for the good works.

I thank you for that, but I need to clear up what appears to be a misunderstanding. Masonry does not teach salvation or a path to salvation. Most importantly, this is because masonry is not a religion, it is a fellowship of men with faith in g-d. G-d commanded us to help those in need and to do good, not as a means of salvation, but because it is the RIGHT thing to do. Masons follow this command, Faith, Hope and Charity, but the most important of these is Charity.

We give because we SHOULD, not to achieve heaven, because it is right, fit, meet and proper, but giving money is not all we do. We also serve in various ways, from the Angel Fund, which purchases or provides things for community members that have a great need but cannot afford (like anonymously buying a flute for a child with a gift but no funds to purchase one) to providing shoes to underprivledged children all over the United States, to performing the Child ID services free...

So its not always money, and it definately is not about reaching heaven by works alone, but faith, without works, is without value. Even the devil has faith.

You mention Jesus, but in lodge, since it is not a church, we do not discuss a particular faith. We seek to work together, to serve together, so we seek between us that which unites us, not that which separates us. Religious Dogma or issues of faith are divisive, and the great work we are doing is not about religious doctrines or preaching.

A brother is free to preach or proseletyze for his faith anywhere he wants, in fact, he is encouraged and reminded that Masonry does not replace his place of worship, but not IN lodge.

I hope this helps, and I hope you are not under the impression that we are attempting to proseletyze you into joining. That is not the point in answering your questions and concerns. Frankly, I do not want anyone to have a poor understanding or a poor opinion of freemasonry for a lack of information. We do good in the world, and those that criticize us seem to fall into four classes:

• Ignorance or lack of information
  
• Religious zealotry
  
• Hate/Fear of unknown
  
• Profit motive (tapes, books, pamphlets etc)
  

The first and the second go hand in hand really. And the third is really related to the first as well. the last is crass, and in the same class as Tammy Faye and Jim Baker, frauds looking for a quick buck. Anytime someone tells you to fear something, then offers to sell you a book, tape, pamplete, program to erase your fear should make you run the other direction.

Information is the cure for the first three, usually, so we are here and in other forums where this issue comes up, offering the truth and information for FREE, to dispell the darkness and shed some light on the issue, but not to convert.

Masonry teaches us to respect all men's opinions, and I do... but that does not stop me from pointing out where they are wrong in those opinions, or from sharing the light of masonry with the world.

Thanks, Troy, for your honest curiousity and questions.

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra

The initiation ritual for first degree recruits symbolically strips the novice of his money to indicate his poverty of power and spirit without the Brotherhood. His trouser-leg is rolled up, his shirt opened" one shoe is removed to make him feel alienated, lonely and absurd. He is blindfolded and given a noose to wear to add to his vulnerability and sense of mortal despair. He is totally dependent on his fellow Masons and takes an oath of secrecy that is clearly against Humanist ethics. The convert accepts that "having his throat cut across, tongue torn out by the roots and buried in the sand" is the price to pay for speaking of the Masonic practices he witnesses.

HMmmmm I see why freemasons are not quick to talk about what goes on.

Well, first of all, that is not what is done nor why. NO MASON takes an obligation which is contrary to moral or ethical behavior. However, if you can show me where my obligation is against humanist ethics I would be real interested, since masons take the obligation and know what we are promising.

As for the rest, I have an obligation not to discuss ritual, other than to say what you have posted is factually incorrect.

So do 33 degree masons drink wine from an upside down human skull when Initiation takes place? Its a simple yes or no question.

NO.

If you cannot answer that is it because you would get your tougne torn out? or simply you cannot disclose/varify the secrets?

The penalties are symbolic, like a child that promises: Cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye No one seriously expected that to happen, and no mason carries out those penalities. The penalties spoken of in a masonic obligation are symbolic only, and meant to impress the seriousness of the obligations... the words are, to the effect: binding myself under no less a penalty than... which is not at all asking this to happen...

why would you keep something like that secret?

First because it is a lie... you see, that is part of the problem with having secret rituals that you promise to forever conceal and never reveal... folks with nasty minds fill in the blanks with whatever evil leaps to their minds. REAL masonry is not about death and blood rituals, no matter what our few detractors may write or say.

Besides, why would you care if I took an obligation never to reveal any of the secrets and promised my life on it... its not about YOU, its about me, and my honor. I gave my word. Period. The penalties are entirely symbolic, and no one has ever killed or maimed or etc any of the folks that have published the "secrets" of masonry... why would you, therefore, believe such twaddle?

Thanks.

Its not that I beleive it 100%, then again I can't say its doesn't happen because I don't know. Also it doesn't help you have to keep quite about matters to that fuels the fire. But most of my questions have been answered and I thank you for it.

Fact is though I beleive strange blood rituals, dark and morbid things go on in the shadows of the world, they go on inside a place which the public does not see. Its a secret group within a very 'quite' group, thats what my gut says to me.

So it might not be the highest ranks freemasonry, that is why I ask the questions to see what you guys have to say. Although if someone wanted to control the world and they know freemasons hold some of the worlds/local town/city's most powerful positions then gaining control of the freemasons would mean gaining control of those positions. Which in turn means gaining control of the peoples. Since freemasons are taught from the bottom to do good then the perfect deception would be for the infultrators to make the leaders think they are doing good and in a top down information system which freemasonry is (I think) then the whole organisation believes its good at the top and bottom.

But these are my ramblings now anyway.

Originally posted by theron dunn
REAL masonry is not about death and blood rituals, no matter what our few detractors may write or say.

I just read this again. So if REAL masonry isn't about death and blood ritual then WHAT masonry is? are you saying there is some part of masonry that is? or are you saying there is FAKE masonry that deals with blood and death rituals??

The REAL masonry statment pricked my ears up.

Originally posted by troylawson
I noticed the "Christian" mason conspicuously failed to respond to some of 7th chakra's questions/concerns.

Now going around not talking about and denying Jesus is not my idea of an association I want to be known for.

Oh? Which questions weren't answered?
And where do I say that Freemasonry denies Jesus?
In fact didn't I explicitly state the opposite.

Try actually reading the replies before responding with something that can be mistaken for drivel.

Originally posted by 7th_Chakra
So if REAL masonry isn't about death and blood ritual then WHAT masonry is?

Chakra. I believe that the false masonry that Theron is referring to is the interpretation that antis have given to the ritual. They change it's meaning into something that it is not.
As for the fake masonry? There are literally thousands of groups that call themselves masons. You could start up your own group and call it masonry - we don't have a monopoly on the name. The problem is that some of these groups get associated with us through the name and therefore people automatically assume that we are linked in some way and that we must be like them - take OTO for example. Regular Freemasonry has nothing to do with these fringe groups but in the minds of the antis we are entwined, simply because they also call themselves masonic organisations.