Why are evolutionists convinced we are not created?, page 12

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reply posted on 5-11-2011 @ 09:59 AM by Nosred

Originally posted by DaveNorris
NEITHER EVOLUTION NOR CREATIONISM HAS BEEN PROVEN. we use the knowledge we have to select the most possible theory, at the moment evolution is the most likely theory.

Nice one DN. Evolution has more proof than gravity.

reply posted on 5-11-2011 @ 05:36 PM by Barcs

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
reply to post by Barcs

Cats do not understand the facial cues of humans. Cats cannot understand when you point at something.

You are generalizing. My cat understands when I point, she listens to my commands, understands a good amount of words, and comes when I call her. It depends on how you teach the cat and interact with them. I don't know if she reads my facial expressions, but she can sense my emotions.

Cats may fetch (I had a cat that did) but not for the same reasons as dogs. Cats do not have the same social intelligence as dogs - they are not social creatures like dogs.

Cats are not pack animals. They do not generally socialize in groups, but as individuals they are much more likely to survive in the wilderness than dogs. Dogs are more reliant on the pack. Are you seriously trying to tell me you can read a cat or dog's mind and understand WHY it fetches? Regardless of exactly why, It's a form of playing and bonding. Cats play with you, just like dogs do. They have fun, and both usually play in different ways, although some cats do fetch.

I'm not saying other mammals aren't intelligent, I'm saying no other animal can communicate with humans like dogs can. Again, there is research and science backing this fact up.

Ok, so now it's "no other animal can communicate like dogs can". Before it was "no type of animal has the same type of intelligence". Apples and Oranges, man. No other animal can communicate like cats can. If you think my cat has any trouble at all communicating with me, then you are mistaken.

The problem with a lot of those studies on cats and dogs, is that they are not always in normal environments, and are not taught and trained in the same manner. They aren't always reliable when determining those types of things.

edit on 5-11-2011 by Barcs because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 7-11-2011 @ 07:56 AM by blackreign2012

reply to post by jeramie

"For some reason most people nowadays would much rather believe they are related to monkeys instead of having been made in the image of a perfect Creator. They can believe they are nothing but descendants of monkeys if they want. For myself, I'll choose the other option"

That is called ego blocking logic. No one wants to be related to the poor monkeys

Yet you were created by Santa Clause.

edit on 7-11-2011 by blackreign2012 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 7-11-2011 @ 12:00 PM by TinkerHaus

Originally posted by Barcs

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
reply to post by Barcs

Cats do not understand the facial cues of humans. Cats cannot understand when you point at something.

You are generalizing. My cat understands when I point, she listens to my commands, understands a good amount of words, and comes when I call her. It depends on how you teach the cat and interact with them. I don't know if she reads my facial expressions, but she can sense my emotions.

Cats may fetch (I had a cat that did) but not for the same reasons as dogs. Cats do not have the same social intelligence as dogs - they are not social creatures like dogs.

Cats are not pack animals. They do not generally socialize in groups, but as individuals they are much more likely to survive in the wilderness than dogs. Dogs are more reliant on the pack. Are you seriously trying to tell me you can read a cat or dog's mind and understand WHY it fetches? Regardless of exactly why, It's a form of playing and bonding. Cats play with you, just like dogs do. They have fun, and both usually play in different ways, although some cats do fetch.

I'm not saying other mammals aren't intelligent, I'm saying no other animal can communicate with humans like dogs can. Again, there is research and science backing this fact up.

Ok, so now it's "no other animal can communicate like dogs can". Before it was "no type of animal has the same type of intelligence". Apples and Oranges, man. No other animal can communicate like cats can. If you think my cat has any trouble at all communicating with me, then you are mistaken.

The problem with a lot of those studies on cats and dogs, is that they are not always in normal environments, and are not taught and trained in the same manner. They aren't always reliable when determining those types of things.
edit on 5-11-2011 by Barcs because: (no reason given)

Ugh, dude.

I wasn't attacking the cat's intelligence. You're obviously a cat lover. I have a teddy bear I love. I like to pretend that he understands me too.

Take your cat for a walk in the forest, see how long he sticks around to "communicate" with you.

I'd love to see your cat identifying and retrieving items that you point at. You should record this so that scientists around the world can see it too. They would love this because it would be the ONLY case on record where a cat understands hand gestures.

I'm not going to say cats are less intelligent than dogs, just that they are not capable of the types of communication a dog and a human can share. Again, I know you want to say that your cat understands you, and I'm sure he/she wants to snuggle when you're sad and all of that stuff. That is not at all what I am talking about. Dogs have evolved to understand forms of human communication that we cannot see with any other animal. Some animals might be able to do 1 or 2 things a dog can, but no other animal shares the dog's skillset 100%.

Again, this is NOT my opinion but backed by science and years of research. I gave links earlier in the thread, I'm not going to do so again.

One more time:

This is not a "DOGS ARE BETTER THAN CATS" statement. This is an attempt to show how dogs have evolved over time to truly be "man's best friend." and how no other animal has evolved in the same way. This is because dogs and humans have formed a partnership that's lasted for the better part of the last 100k years, or more.

And just FYI, most of these tests are conducted on PUPPIES that have had no training. Dogs automatically react to human direction. Cats are not capable of doing the same.

This is why dogs are trained to work for humans and cats are not. Cats couldn't do 90% of what the working dog can because cats are not capable of the same type of animal/human interactions. Once again, FACT not opinion.

I'm sure you love your cat. I bet it's cuddly and cute and makes you feel wanted when you're lonely, but it's operating on a very different level than a dog would be. For the record know that I am not biased, I respect all different types of animals and have had both cats and dogs my entire life. So not only is science backing up what I tell you here, but my own personal (30+ years with cats/dogs/aquariums/various farm animals) of experience is doing the same.

Teach your cat to fetch items on command. Teach your cat a vocabulary of 10 words or more. Post your results. When you can demonstrate that your cat understands your words, or can tell when you are pointing to a remote object I will believe you that cats are capable of these things. I'd be amazed to see a cat recognize ONE single word...

edit on 7-11-2011 by TinkerHaus because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 7-11-2011 @ 03:01 PM by Barcs

Take your cat for a walk in the forest, see how long he sticks around to "communicate" with you.

Funny thing, I do take my cat for walks through the forest, unleashed of course. She hangs out and follows me, and plays on fallen trees and such. I do it for exercise, but she follows me quite often. I give her complete freedom. Sometimes I have to slow down for her to keep up, but she does pretty well. I see intelligent animals as individuals. One cat may be a complete polar opposite of another, and same with a dog. Some dogs and cats are very similar as well. My cat does seem to have a few "dog like" traits. She also grew up with a chocolate lab, which I feel is part of the reason.

I'd love to see your cat identifying and retrieving items that you point at. You should record this so that scientists around the world can see it too. They would love this because it would be the ONLY case on record where a cat understands hand gestures.

I didn't say she retrieves items I point at. I said she understands the gesture. Sometimes I'll point at a tree and say "go on up there" or something similar in a motivating excited voice, and if she's in a playful mood she'll run right up the tree. Sometimes I'll point at a bug or bird and as soon as she looks and notices it, she'll go after it.

I'm not going to say cats are less intelligent than dogs, just that they are not capable of the types of communication a dog and a human can share. Again, I know you want to say that your cat understands you, and I'm sure he/she wants to snuggle when you're sad and all of that stuff. That is not at all what I am talking about. Dogs have evolved to understand forms of human communication that we cannot see with any other animal. Some animals might be able to do 1 or 2 things a dog can, but no other animal shares the dog's skillset 100%.

I'll agree with that. But no animal can utilize a cats skillset 100% either. A cats skillset is much more valuable than a dogs, IMO, because if something happens to the owner, the dog will most likely die, while the cat could survive in the wilderness unless they'd been stuck inside their entire lives and had no contact with the outside world. I'm just saying, my cat understands communication just fine, and communicates with me every day. She doesn't whine and whimper, but occasionally begs, and is the first to greet me the second I walk in the door from work each day. Cats aren't the easiest animals to train, yes, but I feel its because they smarter and like freedom, rather than blindly obeying vocal commands. I don't feel like that because she's cute and cuddly. It's because she has a personality.

This is an attempt to show how dogs have evolved over time to truly be "man's best friend." and how no other animal has evolved in the same way. This is because dogs and humans have formed a partnership that's lasted for the better part of the last 100k years, or more.

I understand, but a dog will not be mans best friend unless trained and shown love as a puppy. It isn't natural. Yes, dogs have evolved to become more dependent on humans, but cats have as well. Cats as pets dates back before Sumeria, they have evolved with humans as well.

And just FYI, most of these tests are conducted on PUPPIES that have had no training. Dogs automatically react to human direction. Cats are not capable of doing the same.

I'd wonder what kind of environment they are testing in. Usually they are not normal environments that are conducive to building a relationship with a cat. Kittens play with humans without training as well.

Cats couldn't do 90% of what the working dog can because cats are not capable of the same type of animal/human interactions. Once again, FACT not opinion.

It's not that a cat COULDN'T do it (besides heavy labor obviously), it's that they don't WANT to do it. They see no purpose, they see themselves as equals, not as submissive slaves like a dog. If you encounter a dog that's been wild its entire life, it would not follow your command

Teach your cat to fetch items on command. Teach your cat a vocabulary of 10 words or more. Post your results. When you can demonstrate that your cat understands your words, or can tell when you are pointing to a remote object I will believe you that cats are capable of these things. I'd be amazed to see a cat recognize ONE single word...

Teach your dog to use the toilet. My cat knows more than 10 words/commands. She can even distinguish the difference between "food" and "good food." I personally feel that a lot of those studies are in controlled environments where you won't find the same result as being in a home with a loving owner. I'm not trying to say cats are better than dogs, either. Just that you can't generalize an entire species based on a few select results in controlled settings. Maybe my cat is unique to most others.

reply posted on 7-11-2011 @ 05:17 PM by TinkerHaus

reply to post by Barcs

You absolutely can generalize an entire species based on that species' behavior.

No offense, but I believe you are giving your cat much more credit than it deserves.

If your cat really displays the behaviors you are claiming you should contact someone who studies animal behavior, because your cat would be the first cat in the world to understand human words.

Again, I know you obviously think your cat is really special but it does not have the same type of social intelligence as a dog. No animal is known to act the way dogs do other than humans.

I've linked some documentaries that display the types of behavior and understanding I'm talking about. Dogs will do things that cats have not been able to replicate.

To highlight a few:

-Dogs can understand and relate to human language. For example you can say "newspaper" and your dog will fetch the paper. Say "Ball" and your dog can find the ball. Not all dogs have this training, but all dogs are capable of doing this. Cats are not.

-Dogs understand human body language. You can point to an object and the dog knows IMMEDIATELY what you are doing.. They don't have to look around for a bit to find the bug you are aiming at. Put a treat under a cup while your cat isn't looking, then point to the treat. See how long it takes for your cat to figure that out. (sniffing and exploration is CHEATING - the cat must respond to your cue)

-Dogs can work. Have you ever seen a service cat? Have you ever seen a bomb-kitty? No? That's because cats do not have the same type of intelligence as dogs and would not be capable of performing these roles.

I don't understand why you keep arguing with me on this.. This is PROVEN by science.

Henry the schnoodle just did a remarkable thing. Understanding a pointed finger may seem easy, but consider this: while humans and canines can do it naturally, no other known species in the animal kingdom can. Consider too all the mental work that goes into figuring out what a pointed finger means: paying close attention to a person, recognizing that a gesture reflects a thought, that another animal can even have a thought. Henry, as Kivell affectionately admits, may not be "the sharpest knife in the drawer," but compared to other animals, he's a true scholar.

Please READ this article for a better understanding of WHY dogs have a higher social intelligence than all other animals (except humans).

reply posted on 7-11-2011 @ 06:39 PM by Barcs

reply to post by TinkerHaus

I apologize for that and in advanced for my ramblings below. I figured since this thread was going no where we could make it bit more interesting

If your cat really displays the behaviors you are claiming you should contact someone who studies animal behavior, because your cat would be the first cat in the world to understand human words.

My mom's cat could understand human words as well, but only a select few. It can't really be that rare, can it? Perhaps I should contact somebody. She understands the following words: Outside, Inside, hey, bye, play, bed, treat, come here, walk, food, good food (aka wet food. Yeah, she enjoys it more and knows the difference when I say it), Nappy (her name), and a few others that I can't remember at the moment. I suspect she knows what the word "cat" means, since she hates em and I always point them out to her. She also knew the name of the dog that she grew up with, I doubt she does anymore. Now I'm not saying she contemplates the meaning of the words, and actually understands on that level, but like a dog, she links the words to the actions that follow and draws the association. I don't think most cats can do that, but I've seen more than a couple that have.

I know I'm playing semantics a bit when I say that yes no animal can communicate like a dog, and that no animal can communicate like a cat. You are right about the form of communication itself, but cats communicate in ways that go beyond verbal commands. They definitely are not as emotionally driven as dogs, and can't express it with their face. That is a fact. But my cat does know exactly how to tell me what she wants. I see what you're saying though about HOW they communicate.

About body language. When I point, my cat knows to look for something, therefor she understands the hand gesture. Cats don't usually fetch or follow every command on demand, so why would you expect a cat to react instantly when you point at something? She associates my pointing with me trying to show her something. I'd try that cup experiment, but I can't honestly expect her not to use her sense of smell to find it. I'd think something like that would have to be trained, no?

Cats can't be commanded around like dogs and are not as mobile. That's why they don't work and perform tasks with humans. They have their territory and they aren't comfortable leaving it in most situations. They are also uncomfortable in groups, but as individuals not only do they learn, but they teach themselves how to do things. If you want to communicate and have a relationship with your cat you need to first give them freedom.

It's also interesting to note that some dogs are bred specifically to follow human commands. You are correct about the actual form of communication. It's much more direct and to the point. Dogs can be more "personable" I suppose and are better at relaying the message back. I guess I'm not really disputing that.

edit on 7-11-2011 by Barcs because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 8-11-2011 @ 01:32 PM by MrXYZ

Answer: Because we care about facts and objective evidence!!

And creationism has non, while evolution is fully backed up by objective evidence. Hell, we are using the theory in modern medicine to predict FUTURE OUTCOMES. If the theory were wrong, we wouldn't be able to do so

reply posted on 9-12-2011 @ 09:44 PM by tetriswoooo

Originally posted by piles
reply to post by piles

also i would just like to point out that mathematically it is far more likely that we are a digital being, than a being which got here from a blast... if we calculate the odds of an explosion getting our planet here, the odds of an explosion getting the sun where the sun is and the odds of the sun burning endlessly alone..

its already about 1 million times more likely that we were created, why does science not even understand the basic fact that if we were created then we are digital?

while i see how u might think that think about how many planets there are there is trillions apon trillions in an ever expanding universe so when you compare the outlandish odds with the ammount of planets it seems very likley we are evolved and not digital

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 04:27 PM by Firepac

Originally posted by piles
I know there is another thread, but I felt my first thread deserved a whole new thread, as its slightly different on content.

I just want to point out that science has over looked a very simple fact and may have got everything very wrong about evolution, when saying we evolved..

If we were created, then that means we are a digital being. That also means that the universe is digital!

yet when i asked a fairly well known scienctist if its at all possible that we were created he said no! I managed to back him into a corner with this argument and he at least agreed that he could be wrong and yes given what I had said it is possible that we were created.

It is perfectly possible that we are a digital being and in order for science to prove we are here as a result of evolution it would need to prove we were not digital. Which science hasn't managed to prove, therefore not one person on this planet can prove that we evolved.

It seems science has turned to things like fossils and DNA in order to prove evolution exists, instead of turning to the very important fact that if we are not digital then we evolved. Which bassicly means that not one scientist can prove we evolved until a scientist can prove we are non-digital

While you may feel real, in the short amount of time we have had computers we are already able to create a digital being that looked like us, acted like us and thinks its real. The only thing we would struggle with is creating a digital being as intelligence as us. however would could probably create for now a digital being as intelligent as a 10yr old child. we could create dna which matched both a monkey and a parrot. we could also create digital beings that adapted to their environments.

The fact is that of todays date, 31/10/2011 after god knows how many years of being on this planet not a single person on this planet can prove we are non-digital. therefore we as a species don't yet know wheather or not we were created or evolved..

It is quite apparent that you have no idea what digital means.

reply posted on 13-12-2011 @ 07:07 PM by Thain Esh Kelch

digital |ˈdijitl|
adjective
1 relating to or using signals or information represented by discrete values (digits) of a physical quantity, such as voltage or magnetic polarization, to represent arithmetic numbers or approximations to numbers from a continuum or logical expressions and variables : digital TV. Often contrasted with analog .
• (of a clock or watch) showing the time by means of displayed digits rather than hands or a pointer.
2 of or relating to a finger or fingers.
DERIVATIVES
digitally adverb
ORIGIN late 15th cent.: from Latin digitalis, from digitus ‘finger, toe.’

reply posted on 14-12-2011 @ 09:52 AM by HappyBunny

reply to post by Barcs

Totally off topic, but you're right. Dogs have masters. Cats have staff.

They know exactly what you're saying. They just don't want to listen to you. You're beneath their notice.

Cats are also predators, not scavengers. There was a feral cat in the neighborhood awhile back, and it was a little scary to watch it hunt. Even after all the thousands of years since they were domesticated, they still have that instinct and they know how to use it. Even a housecat that gets loose will remember.