US Marine in critical condition after OccupyOakland

Interesting response in the comments section, from OP's article:

Unfortunately, you don't generally get your point across by simply obeying Big Brother. History has proven time and time again that the only way to get real changes in government is to stand up and insist that these changes are necessary and important, and that you will not stop until they have been made. The fights to remove outright slavery from this continent, for women's right to vote, for a forty hour week and for humane child labor laws were not won because congress happened to feel benevolent. They were won because people marched till they were run down by the police and sent to prison, and they continued to march and to fight until changes had been made. It never was easy. - Genevieve, Waltham MA United States, 26/10/2011 21:37

Can't say I disagree.
Can't say I want to see an all out battle between protesters and police either.
I can't really comment though, I live in the UK where people use violence against police in order to loot trainers..

Originally posted by Deplume
Interesting response in the comments section, from OP's article:

Unfortunately, you don't generally get your point across by simply obeying Big Brother. History has proven time and time again that the only way to get real changes in government is to stand up and insist that these changes are necessary and important, and that you will not stop until they have been made. The fights to remove outright slavery from this continent, for women's right to vote, for a forty hour week and for humane child labor laws were not won because congress happened to feel benevolent. They were won because people marched till they were run down by the police and sent to prison, and they continued to march and to fight until changes had been made. It never was easy. - Genevieve, Waltham MA United States, 26/10/2011 21:37

Can't say I disagree.
Can't say I want to see an all out battle between protesters and police either.
I can't really comment though, I live in the UK where people use violence against police in order to loot trainers..

edit on 26-10-2011 by Deplume because: fail spelling is fail

Just thugs, lots of thugs over there, or perhaps some sort of calculated riot, something called the Black Bloc or something?? They come out of nowhere and incite violence, then get peaceful protesters injured (pretty sure they're just cops too).

We just need to assert OUR power over the police. They are here to serve us.
hency why i say, paintball guns + hot pink paint balls = pink, the hottest new riot gear.

Alot of the protestors were throwing the canisters back at these thugs, but to no avail, because the police has on their gas masks. I bet the police in riot gear will disperse next time if a couple people ran up to their line and placed a couple of black brief cases in front of them. With nothing in them but love notes of course

I have a few practice gernades for this very reason (not to be used on officers though) If ever I was in a situation to where I was stuck hiding behind somthing or I couldnt get the other person/ group to move, i could just toss my dummy gernades by their area and yell" gernade out!!!" I dont know of any person that would be brave enough to stick around to see if it was fake or not. This is for a post SHTF situation by the way.

Originally posted by Talltexxxan
Alot of the protestors were throwing the canisters back at these thugs, but to no avail, because the police has on their gas masks. I bet the police in riot gear will disperse next time if a couple people ran up to their line and placed a couple of black brief cases in front of them. With nothing in them but love notes of course

I have a few practice gernades for this very reason (not to be used on officers though) If ever I was in a situation to where I was stuck hiding behind somthing or I couldnt get the other person/ group to move, i could just toss my dummy gernades by their area and yell" gernade out!!!" I dont know of any person that would be brave enough to stick around to see if it was fake or not. This is for a post SHTF situation by the way.

Haha. Hence why i'm saying paintballs! Blind their masks with paint , And take tonnes of pictures.
I can make some like, gas grenades, Good distraction

reply to post by Aggie Man

Serves them right for not remembering the part of the constitution that guarantees peacefully assembly...when the authorities say you can.

A municipality has every right to establish permit rules for demonstrations and to require dispersion of a disruptive event. Freedom of assembly does not mean you get to set up impromptu camps all over the sidewalks.

We can argue whether or not it is reasonable all day and night - the fact of the matter is that it is within the powers of local governments to set and enforce these rules - whether you find them reasonable or not (this is why your local officials and the elections that seat them are important - but people usually treat it like a Prom King/Queen vote).

reply to post by camaro68ss

OMG, my local news station, based out of Oakland, has fotage of everyone trying to drag the wounded vet out when a cop, plane as day, rolls a flash bang in the middle of them all right next to the vet laying on the ground and exploded!

A group of people suddenly converge on one location in a district where violence against the police has occurred and you're one of them. What do you do? Wait for them to torch your ass with an improvised weapon? Or roll a stun weapon into the midst to get them to disperse?

I'd choose the stun weapon. Every time. It's the only logical course of action. We're not dealing with a frag grenade (though I would also not hesitate to use one in the same scenario, lacking non-lethal weapons).

It's not about whether I agree or disagree with the protesters. It's not about who started what. The fact is that the situation has become tactical and decisions must be made accordingly. I am responsible for the officers/soldiers/enforcers around me and will be held accountable to my own actions. I'd rather not wait to find out why a bunch of people are converging on a single location when you have a lot of people who have demonstrated the intent to use deadly force (for the record - tossing a bottle at someone counts as lethal force in the legal world - or displaying the intent to use any weapon counts as demonstrating the intent to use lethal force... that goes both ways, too - police and military can easily get hemmed up by this and it be ruled they escalated the situation unnecessarily).

However - I don't get to choose who started it. I only have a limited range of options before me to put an end to it.

This is how I look at the world - as what is, in my mind, a true warrior. The government system exists to avoid unnecessary violence and conflicts. It only has the power and authority we put into it as a society. This is both our greatest asset and one of our most dangerous vulnerabilities. Negligence and/or petulance on behalf of society begets a negligent and/or petulant government.

I've always looked down on protesting because of its long-standing record of being less than effective. What is effective is discussing issues in the legislative bodies and ensuring our concerns and interests are represented in our respective tiers of government. The Bill of Rights didn't come about because of picketing and sign-waving; it came about because of the concerns of people being voiced through their representatives and people taking it upon themselves to -effectively, and intelligently- deliver their concerns to representatives (or otherwise got involved).

There is absolutely no reason to work outside of that system until it is critically failing.

The best analogy is this: We are trained to never draw or shoulder a weapon unless we fully intend on killing someone. Otherwise - it stays put. This is how I view these cries for violence against police or the existing government. Unless you are -really- intent on taking it down, and committed/resolved to seeing it through... don't do it. Just like I will never pull a weapon on you in an attempt to intimidate you (or anyone else). The way I see it - if you know I have pulled a weapon on you - I was far too slow.

Same with my views on the system and politics. I don't see much point in attempting to try and intimidate people/systems into doing what I want them to do. That is a very domineering way of thinking. I will state, clearly, what will happen under certain hypothetical scenarios - but it's not often for the sake of intimidation. There's a time for violence - and the people who seem to be most upset by police actions are precisely the ones who are going to end up creating an atmosphere where violence is necessary (whether they realize it or not).

It's like watching a teenager pick up a handgun and start flagging it around in some attention-whoring plot. Not really a threat to their 'target' - but to everyone else.

One of the turning points felt by many to have heralded the end of the "hippie dream" took place not far from Oakland in 1969. Violence broke out while the Rolling Stone wailed "Sympathy for the Devil" at the Altamont Free Concert. The event became emblematic of the souring of the 1960s ideals.

Interesting coincidence that the injection of violence into the OWS has also taken place in the same part of California, and may similarly represent a kind of turning point. I'm more or less confident it's just a coincidence, but its worth remembering all the ATS threads in which TPTB are accused of having a rather warped and deviant sense of humor when it comes to symbolic manipulation of dates and events...

Originally posted by AzureSky

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by camaro68ss
These Cops sure know how to dig there own graves.

But who's going to do anything?

This is the problem... there have been so many instances of police brutality and overreacting and so on in the last few weeks.... and what's happened?

Nothing.


Seriously, who is going to bring these assholes to account?

If there are any military in the audience, what is your view on it?
I believe that the military men/women have a bond, stronger than just any old bond. A war bond. They fought together in the war. It will incite anger among a lot of people i do believe. If this man dies, it will be the turning point i do believe. It just brings more military into the mix. And they are tougher than cops ever will be.

Veterans fought a war, and now they're fighting one at home against people sworn to protect the people.

Actually, that's WRONG! The military is NOT there to 'protect the people'! This is the oath:

The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

reply to post by nuttin4U


HEY!!!!! O-Gangers don't have to say they will obey the President? That is probably why I wouldn't have felt any remorse for capping a couple I knew if the President told me to do so.

Originally posted by nuttin4U

Originally posted by AzureSky

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by camaro68ss
These Cops sure know how to dig there own graves.

But who's going to do anything?

This is the problem... there have been so many instances of police brutality and overreacting and so on in the last few weeks.... and what's happened?

Nothing.


Seriously, who is going to bring these assholes to account?

If there are any military in the audience, what is your view on it?
I believe that the military men/women have a bond, stronger than just any old bond. A war bond. They fought together in the war. It will incite anger among a lot of people i do believe. If this man dies, it will be the turning point i do believe. It just brings more military into the mix. And they are tougher than cops ever will be.

Veterans fought a war, and now they're fighting one at home against people sworn to protect the people.

Actually, that's WRONG! The military is NOT there to 'protect the people'! This is the oath:

The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

While i get what you're saying.
Where it says "I will support and defent the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", that right there pretty much means 'the people'. The current government, and super wealthy elite. Are a domestic threat. The threaten your way of life, and they have already destroyed many other countries for profit. The US constitution is for the people, thus, protecting it would also mean to protect the people who live within the united states, as they live under the constitution that is slowly being shredded before your very eyes.

Police will be showing more and more of the stuff they are really made of in the days to come...

Look forward to more Abuse Of Power...

On the other hand it is good to see the masses truly waking up, it is time for all to stand up united to bring about the change the entire world is crying for...

We have lived the way they have chosen for too long, under the guise they ruled for us...

The time has come for Mankind to look out for one another in each and every way, Not live a meager existence so a few can grow fat while most long for just enough and die never having known it...

The time is Now...

Originally posted by AzureSky

Originally posted by nuttin4U

Originally posted by AzureSky

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by camaro68ss
These Cops sure know how to dig there own graves.

But who's going to do anything?

This is the problem... there have been so many instances of police brutality and overreacting and so on in the last few weeks.... and what's happened?

Nothing.


Seriously, who is going to bring these assholes to account?

If there are any military in the audience, what is your view on it?
I believe that the military men/women have a bond, stronger than just any old bond. A war bond. They fought together in the war. It will incite anger among a lot of people i do believe. If this man dies, it will be the turning point i do believe. It just brings more military into the mix. And they are tougher than cops ever will be.

Veterans fought a war, and now they're fighting one at home against people sworn to protect the people.

Actually, that's WRONG! The military is NOT there to 'protect the people'! This is the oath:

The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

While i get what you're saying.
Where it says "I will support and defent the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", that right there pretty much means 'the people'. The current government, and super wealthy elite. Are a domestic threat. The threaten your way of life, and they have already destroyed many other countries for profit. The US constitution is for the people, thus, protecting it would also mean to protect the people who live within the united states, as they live under the constitution that is slowly being shredded before your very eyes.

Again, i will stress...the CONSTITUTION IS NOT FOR 'the people'....it's for the government. The BILL OF RIGHTS is for 'the people'. And we wonder why the country is sooooooo messed up.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights were the result of a compromise between Federalists and Anti-Federalists—between those in favor of a strong national government (Federalists), and those who stressed the sovereignty of the individual states (Anti-Federalists).

Also, two of the main reasons for passing the Constitution in the first place, were so a national government would protect our borders, and take care of our national fiscal health. The federal government is currently spending us into oblivion, and treating the borders of the United States as if they were an inconvenient afterthought.

Both the US Constitution AND the Bill of Rights should have equal status. Perhaps we could add “...and the Bill of Rights” to the oath to defend the US Constitution that US military personnel, and members of Congress take.

US Constitution vs the Bill of Rights

Perhaps people need a HISTORY lesson....because what they 'think they know', they know nothing about.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Gandhi

Moments like these will come back to haunt those rulers who have tried to take away our rights.

the time for peace is over.its time for results.or else?

The raw footage is very interesting, and it's from an relatively unbiased source. I don't see the crowd doing any thing that the police accuse them of. They are basically just engaging in a stare down. I see no rocks or hazardous waste being thrown.

The concussion of the flash band going off that close to the guy lying there almost certainly caused more damage.

This looks really bad.

You can see the entire incident from a high vantage point here. He is wearing a white t-shirt so he stands out in the crowd. You can see exactly when he goes down.

www.ktvu.com...


edit sorry wrong link now corrected


If you watch at the point he goes down most of the crowd near the police line had dispersed. He stood his ground for a little longer than most, then began to run and goes down. Seeing as there was no one blocking a clear shot out in to the center of the square, that its WAS INTENTIONAL!

Originally posted by robomont
the time for peace is over.its time for results.or else?

Yes by all means lets seize on this to further more violence.

That would be the ultimate over reaction and undermine everything people are trying to work for. The goal is to not give the other side any reason they can use to justify harsher responses.

May I suggest those who are advocating that to research Ghandi and his tactics, which were successful.

Originally posted by OwenGP185

There are many all over the world who go against the government and police though they end up in prison labeled the criminal.

I'm not saying who will do anything like I don't think people are prepared to or that nobody will stand up.... but the point is, nobody is and nobody has.

We see police brutality all the time, we see protesters being abused and mistreated all the time.

Now unarmed civilians are being shot with baton rounds/rubber bullets and tear-gassed....


I know people would go to jail, that's where these cops belong... but It's not happening, so what next?

Again, like I said in another thread, I don't know why you guys are angry about violence. This is something YOU wanted.

55% of you:[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/ows_12.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by robomont
the time for peace is over.its time for results.or else?

And what is this supposed to mean? "Implement our ideas or die?"

reply to post by Xcathdra


That is true. Just by standing your ground and not being scared of them, will make them even more desperate. Then more people will start to wake up.

Cops in Oakland doing stuff like this are FELONS. ARREST THEM NOW.

Those pieces of filth must be brought to justice otherwise America is a lawless nation and it won't be long before people start acting like it's a lawless nation, and then it won't be pretty.

And will this injury be heard about on the news? I'm not so confident. They're really slamming these protesters. I actually just started listening to how they talk about these protesters on the MSM and noting the words used to describe them. So far, I keep hearing these descriptions over and over again:

-kids
-dirty
-clueless
-stupid (in nicer words of course, always insinuated)
-people with nothing better to do/lazy bums
-anti-American
-anti-capitalist
-anarchists
-hippies
-potheads/stoners
-violent
-rapists/pedophiles (or willingly harboring them)

Always extremely biased when stories about them are being covered. I also love how the MSM always search until they find the most insane/eccentric/attention-seeking people, then interview them and use them as an example of "the norm" among the demonstrators.