Empathy

If "we" humans collectively have not been able to agree on the mechanism by which humans "pick up" the feelings of other humans, how exactly have we collectively agreed on the mechanism by which horses "pick up" feelings? At least we can talk with fellow humans. Horses we can only observe and manipulate their environments. And yet we think we know more about how the "lesser" beings work. That's just because we can do experiments with animals that would be considered unacceptable on humans. That's just because humans have a tendency to be offended when their deeply felt experiences are explained away as physical/chemical mechanics.

Consider this, how do you know that "pheromones" are the cause, rather than an effect, of behavior with which they are correlated?

reply to post by apushforenlightment


You come across as an immature person trying to up a very grounded logical empathetic person.

It's absolutely normal to want to feel like you're "special". It's the drive that makes us want to be different that the other 7 billion people on this planet.

Sadly though, you aren't that special. This isn't paranormal. It's purely normal...standard...average...typical.

Being highly empathetic is a gift if you're using it to benefit. Proclaiming to be an empath is where to draw the line.

Originally posted by Mcupobob

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by MentorsRiddle

 

Unfortunately the word "empathy" has sort of a communist social program connotation to it right now

What? Empathy has nothing to do with politics or economic perseverances. Its a Human emotion, and a damn good one that makes people decent. I'm sorry to tell you this but communist don't have a monopoly on empathy.

OT: Star and flag and that was good read. Thanks for sharing and pouring your soul.

edit on 10/18/2011 by Mcupobob because: (no reason given)

What? Where were you when Sotomayor was being vetted for the Supreme Court?
Out of the country?

Judge Sotomayor's 'reverse empathy'


Sonia Sotomayor - Empathetic Wise Latino Woman



GOP Fears Sotomayor's 'Empathy'

GOP Fears Sotomayor's 'Empathy'
Sen. Chuck Grassley says Sonia Sotomayor's "empathy" is "troubling."

abcnews.go.com...

On a similar note, I was once in Zambia working at a camp for orphans and the camp director told us that for the local culture, crossing your arms over your chest was considered a sign of confidence. So I did this, even though I was scared because we were going into the ghetto of a rather bad neighborhood. One of the local helpers saw me and asked why I was using this body language and why I looked "scared". I was like, wtf, I thought this was supposed to look confident. But the local was responding to my real emotions, not the mechanical body language that was supposed to represent a fake emotion. I have since realized that there is a subtle difference between confidence arm-crossing and fear arm-crossing. You could explain this as more of those "subtle cues". But the real question is, how are we all so good at interpreting these "subtle cues" so accurately? Are we born with an incredibly complex body-language-interpretation library installed in our brains? I can tell you that in my case, my empathy is certainly not "learned" emotional intelligence, because I was raised in nearly cult-like isolation for 16 years, and rarely saw normal social interactions until I was an adult, and yet I just instinctively know how people are feeling, whether through body language, "subtle cues", or something else, or a combination of all. Somehow I just know. To me, the only logical explanation for that is "magic.", by which I mean, a mechanical process that is happening outside the range of the 5 traditional senses.

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

You come across as an immature person trying to up a very grounded logical empathetic person.

It's absolutely normal to want to feel like you're "special". It's the drive that makes us want to be different that the other 7 billion people on this planet.

Sadly though, you aren't that special. This isn't paranormal. It's purely normal...standard...average...typical.

Being highly empathetic is a gift if you're using it to benefit. Proclaiming to be an empath is where to draw the line.

I don't belive im an empath. But I have experianced things that are out of the norm so I can in a way relate to the op about people who don't get it becuase the have no frame of referance. We are all uniqe and special in our own way because of our experiances. But the way you push the special makes me think you believe im choosing to belive im special to boost my ego. I can assure you that I don't need an ego boost. I know exactly what I am and what im worth. I need to be as humble as I can be in the situation I am in. Namaste.

Originally posted by MentorsRiddle
It is my theory that people with neurological disorders – such as A.D.D., or A.D.H.D, Tourette Syndrome, etc. May actually be empathic – and are short circuiting due to overstimulation of their emotions. Only doctors don’t realize this.

I (and probably many others) appreciate your story. However just for the record, of course i'll re-enforce the point of *may*. Sadly the actual suffers of ADHD and ADD are often misdiagnosed (Science Daily Report (2010). This is sadly fact.

The other point i wish to make aware of parents (who somehow stumble on this thread), should do their research and ALWAYS get a second opinion when it comes to ADHD & ADD to ensure you are just not zombifying children for the sakes of your sanity, these can do more harm than good. Sometimes occums razor should be applied, and it could be allergies (sugar allergies present with ADD style symptoms), along with Bi-Polar disorder.

(Just a reminder, i am NOT a psychologist, i have had a fair amount of experience with Psychological disorders and syndromes, both in my professional life and via reading books.)

We are all born with Empathy here is a perfect video to show this



Slowly it has been tuned out of us until we are numb to it....

-Kdial1

I have empathy to the point where i can put myself in someones shoes and imagine what they are going through but, that's it.. I've actually trained myself to be pretty cold and considers emotions to be kind of something for the weak. Not saying i lack emotion but, i will not show it.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by MentorsRiddle

 

I am giving you a star and a flag. Enjoy it and make it last.
Unfortunately the word "empathy" has sort of a communist social program connotation to it right now. I doubt you are going to have more than a few fans.

There will come a time in everyone's life however when they hope and pray for a little bit of empathy toward themselves. Empathy they were unable to muster up for another.

This is a sinister example of 1984 "double speak." you start out completely ascribing negative, untrue and completely unrealted values to the word empathy which distorts it's meaning. You then sympathize with the concept after you have gutted it of any value.

The real kicker is the pathetic qualifier "unfortunately"'before the gut job.

If the post were anywhere else besides ATS, let's say FaceBook for instance, I would chalk up the comparison of the word empathy to anything having to do with communinism as the ramblings of an 11th grader who neither taken his senior civics class nor studied for the SAT test, which if memory serves me correctly includes the above aforementioned word.

Ha, ha, ha. Just cracked myself up again re-reading the post. Perhaps I was a little harsh? Maybe I should be a little understanding and practice the love for my neighbor I often preach?

Em? Naaa...

Really, I responded to the thread because I totally identify with the OP. I was thrown off by the other post assuming it was a sleight. That's when I read again the line "...we should have empathy for ourselves..."

One cannot have empathy for oneself. It defies the very definition of the word. I'm sorry for the flames with the qualification of, so long as you are in fact of 11th grade or less education, drop out or otherwise.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


I joined this site to reply to this thread. I wanted to weigh in on the empathy thing. There is a huge difference between being empathic and being an empath. I believe most people can feel empathy, and use it in their lives.

Empaths are different. I'm married to one. If you think it is not paranormal, then you have not experienced it.

Best way to illustrate this is to give a couple of examples, I think.

1. He was happily chatting away in Facebook; saw a little profile picture of someone he didn't even know, and was instantly overwhelmed with emotion. He felt fear, anger, resentment, and deep grief. This is a happy guy, who seconds before it hit was laughing and making silly jokes. He has learned when this happens, that if he contacts the person as soon as he identifies who it is, that this helps him to ease both their suffering. It doesn't stop him from feeling the feelings, but it does make him able to confirm they are not his. In this case, he contacted a person from another country, it turned out. They guy was suicidal. He had the feelings my husband picked up. They talked over the next couple of hours, and it seemed to help. But there was no way at all that my husband knew him, or even had seen his posts before. And he was not posting anything negative at all.

2. We had chatted with a friend before we went to bed, and she was going out for dinner. It was her birthday. She was happy. We went to sleep. My husband woke me up about 3am and told me that he was sick and terrified, and that he felt panic. He said, "But it's not mine. I'm going to go downstairs and try to shake it off and figure out who this is." He came up a bit later and woke me up (again!) to tell me who it was. He had 'scanned' mentally, people he knew, and it came to him. Our friend, who was happy earlier, had been given terrible news that evening. She was in a panic. And felt sick. And was terrified. He phoned her. Confirmed it with her AFTER he had spoken to me and told me who it was.

These are only two examples. This stuff happens often. A week doesn't go by that he doesn't get some kind of psychic impression.

If you want to write these things off as 'just feeling a connection' to someone, you can. But I can vouch for the paranormal aspects of a true empath. This stuff comes to them from a distance, or from up close. It can blindside you. My husband, who loves people, tends to be in crowds as infrequently as possible. He cannot do funerals. But he has said that it is interesting how people feel grief differently. He has felt many peoples' grief with them, and it is vastly different from person to person. apparently.

I'd be the biggest skeptic if i hadn't seen this first hand and often enough. There is no rational explanation for it. And when he tells me BEFORE he gets confirmation, then it is verifiable, at least to me. It is way different than commiserating with someone who is feeling something. This comes rushing in out of the blue with no warning or reason.

An interesting thing is that he seldom feels this for people he knows very well. He thinks it is because he overrides it with his intellectual knowledge of them, so the psychic impressions don't have a chance. I don't know.

It still feels like he reads my mind sometimes. LOL

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


You are dead on. I tell my wife the same thing every time she gets upset. Being an empathic is indeed a gift and a curse at the same time. You have to put up with other peoples feelings all the time, thinking they are your own, come to find out that they are the ones that are upset or angry, etc....


S&F my friend

Originally posted by zarp3333

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by MentorsRiddle

 

I am giving you a star and a flag. Enjoy it and make it last.
Unfortunately the word "empathy" has sort of a communist social program connotation to it right now. I doubt you are going to have more than a few fans.

There will come a time in everyone's life however when they hope and pray for a little bit of empathy toward themselves. Empathy they were unable to muster up for another.

This is a sinister example of 1984 "double speak." you start out completely ascribing negative, untrue and completely unrealted values to the word empathy which distorts it's meaning. You then sympathize with the concept after you have gutted it of any value.

The real kicker is the pathetic qualifier "unfortunately"'before the gut job.

If the post were anywhere else besides ATS, let's say FaceBook for instance, I would chalk up the comparison of the word empathy to anything having to do with communinism as the ramblings of an 11th grader who neither taken his senior civics class nor studied for the SAT test, which if memory serves me correctly includes the above aforementioned word.

Whatever. I can find plenty of threads here on ATS where the concept of empathy is trashed as if it is some heinous redistribution of compassion.

If you will scroll to the post where I provide 3 links showing where EMPATHY is trashed as a commie propaganda mechanism Obama used to sell Sotomayor in the media. I know, it was like centuries ago. You were probably in what...? 11th grade? Understandable you might forget.

I happen to remember them, clearly if you don't. Being a fan of empathy, I was offended. It doesn't make a heck of a lot of difference either way to me what you think. You are not a problem I care to address or fix. I have read your posts. There are worse people than you. I wanted to side with and show camaraderie with the OP before others denigrated him or her.

After all, without empathy you may as well chuck the golden rule. It won't work.

reply to post by zarp3333

...we should have empathy for ourselves..."

I think what I said was they would pray for a time when there was a little bit of empathy shown toward themselves. Maybe I should have said "toward them." So sue me. Your powers of comprehension are as good as my grammar.

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


That is a very good story, and one I can strongly relate to.
Well written/ put together!
You have a good understanding of this.


I've come to pretty much the same conclusion after many years...
with a whole lot of time alone to sit and ponder these kind of things.

I don't have tourettes , but they did slap me with the whole ADHD thing pretty early. lol
There is a seratonin-like compound found in forests, called 'psilocybin' i believe, that amplifies this whole 'empathic'/empathy thing hugely..
and that has taught me / or helped me to 'figure out' a lot of this.


Good thread, well done. Thanks.

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


Wow, Mentors,

I am sorry for all the crap you went through - I also went through a lot.

As an Empath, I understand you completely.

And it is so hard to bear all of that suffering. I have it for animals, humans, trees, plants, the planet - and when you are like this you have no shield.

So you keep on suffering.

Stay strong!

Originally posted by elliotmtl
If "we" humans collectively have not been able to agree on the mechanism by which humans "pick up" the feelings of other humans, how exactly have we collectively agreed on the mechanism by which horses "pick up" feelings? At least we can talk with fellow humans. Horses we can only observe and manipulate their environments. And yet we think we know more about how the "lesser" beings work. That's just because we can do experiments with animals that would be considered unacceptable on humans. That's just because humans have a tendency to be offended when their deeply felt experiences are explained away as physical/chemical mechanics.

You answered your question. I personally do not feel offended at all as having my deeply felt experiences explained through physical/chemical mechanics, but I am aware some do. But yes, we do do similar experiences with humans (because you do need to kill or harm anyone to measure the physiological changes occuring within them and register the environmental elements present at the time they happen.

Consider this, how do you know that "pheromones" are the cause, rather than an effect, of behavior with which they are correlated?

Well, I would need to know some specifics on what study and how it was done to respond. I can think of a study in which men would sit in a certain seat in a waiting room, alone, then when he was gone, women were filmed as they went in the room to sit, and they repeatedly chose to sit in the same chair the man had sat in.
They did not have knowledge of a man having sat there.
The experiment was repeated many times, having the chair he sat in be a different one (to rule out it's position as being the correlating force, such as near a window, or by the door, etc.)

Similar experiments done with having women smell a teeshirt a man had worn, and ones no one had worn, and asking them to choose one they just "liked" more, they repeatedly chose the one that had been worn by a man.
I am not sure how, in those cases, you could attribute the behavior of choosing the chair or the teeshirt, as the cause of the mans earlier physiological state and secretions.

I am definately in support of the concept that we can provoke changes in our physiology through our thoughts though, so do not mean to say all that we feel is only a result of subconscious interplay between exterior stimuli and automatic responses..... only that some of what we experience might very likely be.

I watched another experiment in which people had their brain exposed (they were scheduled for brain surgery already, so the researchers took advantage of the exposure) and electrodes were placed in different parts of the brain. A small charge could set off specific behavior mechanisms. The patients were awake and being talked to and interacted with while these electrodes were being set off from time to time.

I was fascinated to see a girl talking to a man, when all of a suddenly she laughed loudly.
The electrode attached to that part of the brain had been set off and caused it deliberately.
The man asked her why she laughed, she took a second to look around, and then claimed she had laughed at a fork that was on the table.
He asked why?
She took about a half second of looking bewildered to say, "because forks are just funny! they look funny!" and looking at it again made her laugh (without the electrode being involved). She had never found forks funny before that incident, but after that incident, when checked on months later, she found herself laughing when she saw forks!

It was obvious that the conscious mind had doen a quick scan to determine what had been seen or experienced at the moment she laughed, made the correlation and claimed it as cause. Which was totally false because the behavior was due to a another stimuli altogether having nothing to do with what the conscious mind could recognize or know.
But we like to feel in charge of all we do, our conscious mind likes to tell itself it has it all under control, and claims it is when it isn't.

We can have behaviors and emotions which have subconscious sources, and our mind will very quickly come up with and excuse and story for it. If a person just picks up anger, for example, from another, they can very quickly search their mind for something or someone they could be mad at, and decide that is why they are mad.
When they weren't before.

That is why I prefer, faced with this complex problem, to NOT spend time tryign to decide who is at fault, who started it, why I feel this way...... and just start from I do feel this way, now how am I going to use this energy?

(because maybe I should specify, I make a difference between "emotions" and "feelings". I am saying, in other words, I prefer not to turn my "emotions" into "feelings")

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


I hear you...feels like the emotions are projected just in front of you, not actually yours and sometimes you can locate the source.

I was sitting about 2 floors up above a couple who were arguing, I could feel every emotion from them which was odd, I hadn't felt anything that extreme for ages.

In my case I have mild autism i.e. Aspergers Syndrome which had acute features like Bi-Polarism (emotional swings and circles), feeling much like you in the early part of my life.

One thing I will say, is try not to label yourself the same as other people, or pigeon hole yourself into a box because you want to "fit" in. We are all unique but equal, I don't perceive things vertically (lesser or greater), rather horizontally (different, similar, disparate etc).

Peace and good health to you my friend.

this makes my choice of lifestyle seem stupid, (emotion wise)
since i learned of the cruelty of this world 3 years ago when i was thriteen i thought it would better be desensitized to the pain and suffering of others. blocking out emotions so i could better controle my own.

eh
but from what i hear empathy is to be a very powerfull tool in the upcoming human evolution stage thats setting up. maby i got the wrong idea...


S&F for you. makes me think about some things. and brings up a few more.

That is very true, some people have very sensitive souls and they can absorb others energies or emotions without even knowing, almost just like getting into a place where there's a beautiful light and you can feel the atmosphere all around and it gets you into a state of almost being hipnotized.