Question for those who say they are losing rights in the US

reply to post by Xcathdra


What planet are you from ?

VI Right of search and seizure regulated

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Where are the words you choose to interpet and /or add, ie : government , law enforcment, TSA, voluntary searches ?
The first 11 word of the VI amendment are "The right of the people to be secure in their persons," is quite clear, and does not specify where that person is at or where they go, would nullify this right.
"against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated," pretty clear I would say, that means no exemptions !
"no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Funny I do not see and /or in this section. TSA searches lack all of the above unless you use a very broad brush and thats the purpose of the VI ammendment to prevent abuse of power of ANY entity not just the government.

So far, people have a list of issues, but none are falling into the category of having rights taken away.

Xcathdra, why did you choose to start a topic and then choose to ignore solid answers in response to the question you've posed, in order to belittle the intelligence of those people who have correctly given you answers?

You have recieved several answers that you have chosen to ignore or cite written law for that supposedly fails to make freedom an individual right. i.e.: I have the right to not be physically molested by any government agency.

Freedom IS an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT... not one that is guaranteed, right? As has been previously mentioned, it is only obvious that you truly believe that it is the Government that 'grants' us our rights, and if the Government doesn't cover things like purchasing vitamins, then we don't have a right to them until the Government drafts a written law addressing vitamins, which would include descriptions, interperretations, and penalties for described actions that go against the color of what said vitamin law would suggest.

Can anybody find the 'OFF' switch attached to this web bot???

It's not that we are totally losing our freedoms, it's that they are being severely altered. For example: Our right to assemble or protest. We must tell the date, place, and the duration of it.
We arent allowed to "disrupt" the public anymore by and you will get your bull horn confiscated if you use vulgar non threatening words or get to personal. Many people are also fighting against our right to bear arms and so on. But hey, people like you don't notice the little changes and laws passed by congress.

Originally posted by RSF77

Originally posted by popsmayhem

 

Obviously you have NOT stated any rights lost.

Just a bunch of whining babies
whining because someone is better off then them is easy
Getting out and making something of yourself is hard..

Anyone can hold a sign and scream RIGHTS VIOLATION

I am not a wall st protester, whining baby or unemployed.

I wish you had said this to my face.

\

Any place any time!!! What rights have you lost?

Can you not answer the question or can you only harass?

This is a good question. We have the write to life, liberty, and the pursue happiness. Forget all the rest of the amendments for the moment. example one- homeless family living in a tent kill a deer. during the preparation for their feast a federal (or state, depending) arrest the husband, takes the meat, and takes the children to a government home. Because it is "out of season" to kill deer, they cannot afford the cost of a hunting license. Oh and the warden confiscates the family vehicle, gun, tent, everything. How many rights violated? example two- a armed police officer accompanies an IRS (is really the collections company for a private banking entity) agent to come to your house to collect your property if you do not pay your income tax. List the rights taken? or that could be if the person stood against this action. I could do this all day!

People generally notice rights being directly taken away or granted.

It's one of those things they follow once there's a document from the government they've subscribed to.

Touch anything on that document, and there'll be buzz on it, but go ahead and water it down because we'll always take a soft line on what it stands for so long as we perceive that it doesn't change us.

We haven't "lost" any rights - they are all still on that document we've long forgotten about.

But that doesn't mean that the rights we have today are what they were when that paper was written.

Each succeeding generation has played it's hand in the "let's reinterpret exactly /who/ and /what type of people/ should have these rights in purest form" and we're not any different nowadays.

As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to offer that the greatest dilution of rights was not in the past 40 years, but between 1860 and 1950.

It's still bull#, but whatever.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
No, I can't. Not without proper permitting and within artificial parameters.

Yes you can

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Sure, I can. Maybe you can with your LEO status but I can't. The moment I hit a particular state line I'll be tackled, tossed in prison and labeled a felon for life. Not to mention the numerous "gun free" zones within the state.

Where does your status as a citizen of say the commonwealth of kentucky grant you thoise same rights when you cross into Tennessee?

Stop looking at this through blinders where the government is just one entity. Its not.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
There you go. Our rights are defined by government. If it isnt explicity written then we have no right, right? Tyranny.

See answrer above. Secondly the Federal Constitution states anything not specifically spelled out for the federal government, is reserved to the states. The law you ar referring to is a state law. How exactly then was your right violated since the consitution was followed?

Tyranny? not quite

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
It's my property isnt it? See above.

You cant fix your own roof because of a state law, not federal. Since its not in the federal constitution, it falls to the state, who in turn passed a law saying only XYZX can do roof repair. Again, where did you lose a right?

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Prisons are full of people who have tried this and gotten caught.

Blanket comments dont help. Give an example please.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Same as above. Without the king's due I'm going to prison.

If you are freely exxchaning your time, then you arent being paid. See above.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
How about you admit you believe our rights are granted to us by government so we can stop playing "lawyer ball"?

Nope... Only 1 person asked me so far what my opinion is and I answered him. I made this thread because people dont understand their government, at all. How it works, whats required etc etc etc. The government dirves me nuts, at all levels. I am a very strong proponent of telling the government where they can go, and I do by voting and seinding my reps letters and calling them, email etc.

People can complain till theyt are blue in the face that the government is evil, and that is the problem, because thats where they stop.

Vote - participate in government, and above all else, people MUST learn how the government works, at all levels, in order to effect that change.

If people donthave a basic conept / understanding of how our government works / suppose to work, do you really think they can fix the problem?

Its like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. On the outside thats all fine, but it doesnt really solve the problem does it?

Originally posted by RSF77

Originally posted by Xcathdra

 

Its an easy question - people in these forums constantly state the government is taking rights away.

My question is what rights are being taken away.

Well your #ing question is being answered, pay attention.

edit on 15-10-2011 by RSF77 because: (no reason given)

Its really not.

Each and every point brought up the OP has logically and patiently explained and provided links or proof of how they have in fact NOT been stripped from you.

Im a Canadian and certainly not fond of a lot of things your American government has done, but i do not see the loss of freedoms people are complaining about. You have a lot of problems, fiscal mismanagement being the biggest in my opinion, but loss of freedom? I doubt it.

reply to post by popsmayhem


Every single amendment you listed is present and has not been removed at the federal level.
Every single amendment you listed is present and has not been removed at the state level.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Whats right were defiled?
What rights are taken from you?

Your still missing my point. If people dont know how the government works, at all levels, how can a person make the claim they systems broke and rights are being taken away?

Example - show me where it states any right not granted by the constitution is reserved to you?

I have to agree that we have lost right's our rights were ordain by our maker to the point now our rights are granted by government and that is constantly being changed daily.

The simple fact people can't do anything at all anymore with out the government's approval that's the country we live in and far too many people are telling and making government to "give" more rights.

Current events is all the proof of anyone who has been paying attention:

You have the right to be spied on
You have the right to be groped when flying
You have the right to take whatever government says and you don't know jack
You have the right to pay government any taxation they deem.

The assault of personal liberty or what passes for it is a travesty of injustice and those who trade liberty for security be it financial or other derserves what they get.

Originally posted by RSF77

Originally posted by Xcathdra

 

Its an easy question - people in these forums constantly state the government is taking rights away.

My question is what rights are being taken away.

Well your #ing question is being answered, pay attention.

edit on 15-10-2011 by RSF77 because: (no reason given)

Its not though.. People make their argument that the government overstpped the consitutiotn and has taken rights away from the people. I am asking the people who make that claim what rights have been taken from them.

People have made lists of iussues, but they dont answer the question. If people make the claim the government is removing their rights, and they dont understand how the government works and what rights are, then how can they make the claim?

Example - someone mentioned freedom of speech and assembly, and went into why the police pepper sprayed people. Its an ineresting observation simply because the person thinks rights were infringed upon. Last time I checked people were still there protesting.

People have the right to free speech, except when they go into a crowded theatre and yell fire. Why is that?

We can assume a number of things here.

1. The Declaration of Independence lists human rights as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we go by THOSE individual rights - the death penalty goes against life, the restrictions on freedoms and regulations go against my liberty, and the government doing things against the will of the people goes against the happiness. Therefore, I have lost ALL my rights.

2. If we go by the Bill of Rights our rights are as follows:

Freedom of religion - Though no explicitly done against me, freedom of religion has been lost to many groups in the past. Waco comes to mind as well as the whole Mosque ordeals around the country.

Freedom of speech - Depending on what I say. I can be thrown in jail for my statements or declared an enemy of the state or "terrorist". While I have the ability to practice my freedom of speech, I am not free from unruly punishments for using it.

Freedom of assembly - My right to assemble has been regulated by a permit process. Though permits do give the right of assembly, the fact that thousands of permits are denied for a number of reasons deprives those people of their freedom of assembly.

Right to Bear Arms - Though not affecting everyone, in some locales in the United States is is illegal to bear firearms. In nearly all of the states regulations against certain firearms prevent people from owning firearms without paying a fee.

Right of no Unreasonable Search and Seizure - Since the Patriot Act this right has been thrown out the window. Many, including myself, have been subject to unwarranted search of vehicles and homes, many times without probably cause.

Right of Due Process - Once again, post-9/11 the right of due process has been denied to political prisoners, not to mention that government has taken to assassinating people without bringing them to trial.

Right of a Speedy Trial - All about the country the right of a speedy trial has been subdued, with trials sometimes taking years to reach the courts, with innocent and guilty people alike being held captive for that time.

Right of No Excessive Bail - This is pretty self explanatory. Bail in America tends to reach into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and many times the millions. With the average American income standing at 39,000 per year, this can be seen as QUITE excessive.

I could refer to the 10th amendment as well, considering it has been violated countless times and thrown into a corner, but it refers to states' rights, not individuals.

If referring to the Bill of Rights, that should be sufficient.

But lastly,

3. You are referring to birth rights, in which case, no, we have not lost any of those rights. We still so have the right to do whatever we so please with ourselves from our birth, however, those rights are not protected from punishment or even death in the society we live in. Therefore, we haven't "lost" them, but we certainly aren't legally allowed to exercise them without living in fear.





There, I answered your question on three different scenarios. I daresay if you haven't found what you are looking for here, then you aren't willing to accept any opinion outside of your own.

Originally posted by cryptographrix
A lawyer walks into a thread...

No, seriously - this whole thread is flamebait.

Going by legal definitions alone, nobody has lost ANY rights, but that's the point - diluting them down doesn't count as "loss" and that's what this # is using as justification for their "what rights have you lost" thread.

And yes, they are a # for it.

Because even they have to get their anus probed at the airport, and that's something they're sure didn't change about them - it was a decision at the policy-making level of government.

Not flame bait and as I said, not looking for a fight. What I want people to do is explain what rights the government has taken. If people are going to make that claims, then they should understand how it works right?

How can a person argue something is broke, or something was taken away unjustly, when they dont know the basics?

Originally posted by neo96
I have to agree that we have lost right's our right were ordain by our maker to the point now our rights are granted by government and that is constantly being changed daily.

The simple fact people can't do anything at all anymore with out the government's approval that's the country we live in and far too many people are telling and making government to "give" more rights.

Current events is all the proof of anyone who has been paying attention:

You have the right to be spied on
You have the right to be groped when flying
You have the right to take whatever government says and you don't know jack
You have the right to pay government any taxation they deem.

You have the right to be spied on Not without a warrant or probable cause.
You have the right to be groped when flying. Your On a private plane buddy.
You have the right to take whatever government says and you don't know jack. huh?
You have the right to pay government any taxation they deem. Of course everyone has to pay taxes that
is voted on by who you voted in office.

Originally posted by RSF77

Originally posted by popsmayhem

 

Obviously you have NOT stated any rights lost.

Just a bunch of whining babies
whining because someone is better off then them is easy
Getting out and making something of yourself is hard..

Anyone can hold a sign and scream RIGHTS VIOLATION

I am not a wall st protester, whining baby or unemployed.

I wish you had said this to my face.

Guys lets tone it down some please. Its politics and will be heated but lets not derail.

Thanks

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Swills
Patriot Act comes to mind. That bill is definitely not in favor of American rights.

Fair enough...

What rights did it strip though?

Hmmm, you make this sound as if it's as easy as black and white. Obviously, we have not lost any one right completely. It would be too obvious if we did. As Rand Paul says, we're giving up our liberties and we are doing this via the Patriot Act (just one example). And what's going on with Fed Gov't scandals? Operation Fast & Furious is a big deal. What was the Fed Gov't thinking? So little by little, hidden behind smoke and mirrors we are slowly giving up and losing our liberties, and if we continue down this road it may very well take away a Right one day in the name of Security, would be my guess. If that day happens you can bump this thread

The bottom line, we are giving up liberties while granting the Federal Gov't way more rights.



His father, Ron Paul, gave us

He also introduced "Sunlight Rule" legislation, which requires lawmakers to take enough time to read bills before voting on them,[94] after the Patriot Act was passed within 24 hours of its introduction.

Washington DC types can never be accused of being thinkers, or hard working it would seem

reply to post by Xcathdra


"...strict interpretation of the Constitution..."

Are we really sure we want that? We could probably do a lot better just coming up with something new. There are a lot of things in that document "leaders," in general, have ignored and haven't even used (think fiscal responsibility), as well as a lot of things that got completely blown out of proportion (think 2nd amendment), and a ton of things that people have either misinterpreted or used to benefit individual groups instead of the whole (think Congressional pay/retirement after 1 term).

Not to mention that the language isn't common anymore.

Wow, OP, you're quite the little government cheerleader, aren't you?

How about a real-life lesson in having your basic rights taken away from you? Give me your full name and address, and I will call the police and lie to them that you are a danger to yourselves and possibly others. I'll tell them that you frequent conspiracy theory websites and that you were overheard saying that you wanted to drop a big fat dirty bomb on DC. I'll throw in that you are an illegal drug abuser and you were seen on your front porch with a shotgun in your mouth, threatening to blow your own head off as you were reading the Quran and mumbling "Allah Akbar". I'll tell 'em I've seen you taking pictures and videos of landmarks and government buildings.

Then you will learn first-hand, when you're hog-tied and thrown in the paddy wagon, then delivered to your nearest looney bin for a 72 hour observation, just what rights you have lost.

Am I a liar? Most assuredly so. But the cops will assume that you are guilty before you can prove yourself innocent (loss of the right to be innocent until proven guilty). In the crazy house, you will get a visit from the feds, who will decide that they would rather err on the side of "safety", so they will not only grill the tar out of you, they will also break into your house, rifle through everything, and take your computers and request your phone records. Is it probable cause? Not really, there is no proof other than my own lies to the authorities. You will lose your right to be secure in your person, papers, etc, and lose the right against unreasonable search and seizure. Try leaving the hospital and see that you have lost your right to go where you please, all because some busy body called the cops and told a bunch of lies.

Let us not even visit the scenario where you crack wise towards a nasty cop, and he knocks you around a bit as he's arresting you, maybe even give you a tasing for being a smart-alek, which is cruel and unusual punishment for a crime you haven't even committed.

The feds will question you incessantly about your constant visitation on the ATS website, and what other anti-government sites you frequent. You will learn that having certain thoughts is considered a "crime" these days, so you have lost your right to your mental liberty and the pursuit of happiness as you see it.

Maybe when you're pulled out of the nut house, and then dragged along with the feds to some undisclosed location for further questioning and harassment, with no viable proof, and held without representation from a lawyer and no limit on how long they can keep you, some of these rights you claim we still have will be nonexistent.

Then, maybe, if I'm feeling really mean, I'll call the building official in your city and say that you have done an addition on your house without a permit.