OWS DOA or Simply Misdirected?

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Calm down?? Did you read the OP or not?? It was full of ridiculous assumptions and false connections... which is nothing new here, but you should also expect heated retaliations against unsubstantiated claims.

If you would refute the allegations, it is fine. But when you simply castigate those making the allegations, it looks like you have little to offer by way of intellectual material.

I am not saying you have to keep refuting each allegation, it is a no-win game and simply not worth it. There are enough people out there who would keep churning out false allegations to keep a million people busy refuting.

Don't fall in the trap of trying to refute or losing your cool and sounding all anger and little thought. Just make your disagreement known and leave it at that.

The movement is growing exponentially right now... most will join it soon enough, and judgments upon a relatively newborn movement are hot air lost on the wind.

Exactly my point. All the allegations and insinuations these guys can think of to delude themselves won't stop the movement. Soon enough many of the cartoons that have been ridiculing the movement will join it and attempt to steer it towards their goals.

Remember this: Every great idea passes through 3 phases, ridicule, opposition and finally the original opponents claiming credit for it. You are already in the second phase. Pretty soon you will see it enter phase 3. Good luck.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

That's the whole point... I don't need to articulate a point-by-point refutation because the OP is ridiculous and irrelevant. Period. For those of you stupid enough to side with the OP and against me... you're not my friend, you're mentally stunted. I'm serious... I'm not gonna play nice with this propaganda, if you lend yourself, batting your eyelashes, to this kind of mislead BS, then you get no respect from me. I just want you to know that you're dead wrong whether you believe it or not.

YAWN

Sure, bub... sure.

I believe you that you could formulate a refutation of you really wanted to - you just don't want to, and the best you can do in that apathy is the say it's "ridiculous", "irrelevant", and we're "stupid", "mentally stunted", "propagandists", "disinfo agents", etc, etc. Sure, I BELIEVE that.... can't you see the spirals in my eyes?

If you SERIOUSLY wanted us to know we're "dead wrong", you would point out just why you think that, instead of sitting back and squealing like a little girl about it. The fact that you can't speaks volumes for why you believe as you do.

Out of curiosity, what is it that makes you think that we give a rats ass whether we are your friends or not? Perhaps you can articulate why you think that, since you can't seem to muster a rational response to the OP.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Mamabeth reporting for duty sir!
What are your orders?

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

I am an enlightened mind relative to the rest of you right-wing xenophobes. Listen... I'm not claiming I'm enlightened in respect to ego and humility at this point... because crap like this enrages me, and the fact that a fair amount of people follow it makes it even worse. I'm only human... and as a human who has tried, even against his own comfort/happiness, to seek the ultimate truth... I can only say you're a bunch of intellectual cowards who are siding with ANYTHING that will reinforce your bullsh*t worldview, even if it means railing against a truly anti-establishment movement.

Why should us knuckle-draggin' Neanderthals (no disrespect intended towards any actual Neanderthals reading) care how "enlightened" you are if you can't seem to articulate a coherent reason why you think you are "enlightened" and we are not? What is there about that sort of "enlightenment" that would make us want it? From here, it sounds like you're grunting, scratching and spitting with the same accent as the rest of the Neanderthals.

Cro Magnon had a new idea - and could articulate it.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

Originally posted by SeventhSeal

WTF you on?

I have no idea what your post is even about.

Learn the english language... then re-read my post. It's not that difficult. I don't even care if you're on my side... you're being a smarta** for stars... which is just pathetic.

Hard to tell if he's on "your side" or not - you've not yet mentioned what that is, through the spittle flecks.

Still, if he said that for stars, it worked. I gave SeventhSeal the first star I've ever given him for that singular observation. How bad is it when One who is normally opposed to every word I utter has to stand back and look at you, and say "WTF?" right along with me?

There may be hope for reconciliation and cooperation yet!

Originally posted by woodwardjnr

Footballers are also quite a good example at how capitalism has gone out of control. A premiership player makes more in one week than a nurse could make in 4 years . Now tell me who provides the more valued service.

Just my two pence from across the pond, but I'd have to say the footballer obviously provides the more "valued" service, while the nurse provides the more "valuable" service, which remains undervalued despite it's intrinsic value.

That in itself makes me wonder where people's priorities lie in general, and how much blame the folks incur who are selling the more valued service, as opposed to those who are selling something that is truly valuable...

In other words, how is Wall Street to maintain a toehold if the populace doesn't value what they do, and stops enriching those services? One possible answer is to generate a fake attack on themselves, a harmless but visible one, where they appear to be the underdogs, under the gun. Brings public sympathy. If that's the plan, these bozos protesting swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

With that said, I still don't think that's the real plan here, but it IS a possibility to keep in mind.

Originally posted by Observor

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
When someone has to take you by the hand and show you what to be mad at, there isn't much hope in you being anything except a sheeple, and that is exactly what this entire movement exhibited for the whole world to see.

They know exactly who to be mad at and are already showing it. But what they don't know is exactly what to do about it or how to go about doing what they need to. That requires leadership, which is yet to emerge.

If people are waiting on the sidelines for a winner, he already showed his face when he endorsed this protest, maybe you missed it along with the rest, and no it wasn't Charlie Sheen.

Quite a few "endorsed" the protest. That doesn't mean they control it or are orchestrating it.

How many of those people put millions of dollars into the Tides Foundation which funded this shindig and Billions of dollars in similar globalist efforts over the last few decades? Rosanne Barr does not qualify.

This is paid for by Globalists, organized by Communists with the Globalists money and advertised by Anonymous, the anarchist shady group who back globalist movements, like these protests and the Arab Spring prefabricated uprisings.

Globalism on the march, the people you see on those streets are just clueless sheeple.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by sensibleSenseless

 

I'm not going to quote you but simply say Fair enough you made your voice be heard on abundant virtues of Communism. Now let me ask you this. What personal experiences with REAL communism can you share with us?

As I've already stated in the Opening piece that if you're not in your late 50s or older and have lived behind the Iron curtain or in Red China under Mao how would one know what it's really like.

As I've also stated previously. The Academic version in a political theoretical study doesn't count. Why? Because in the REAL real world we have humans involved, complete with all their frailties. Such as greed and corruption etc. All the the things we saw happen in the East bloc and the old Soviet Union. There too they had a political elite Meanwhile the people stood in line for the essentials like Toilet paper not to mention trying to get MEAT.

edit on 6-10-2011 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

Hi Slayer, guys,

I will be the first to admit - I don't have first hand knowledge of communism - never lived in a communist country. Don't really need to either. I have also heard about the line-ups for bread and meat. But the flip side is when they changed to capitalism - not all of them could get bread or meat when they needed it - neither were all of them able to support themselves any more.

I'm not actually sure how many people are open-minded, or the degree of open-mindedness. I guess it varies from person to person.

You see, I've run a number of volunteer organizations myself - as a leader. So, I look at organizations from a different perspective altogether. I look at organizations from a structural point of view. A communist country is run by a structure that is not dis-similar to a corporation in the US. It has a chair person and several people who report to him who work below. It doesn't necessarily have to be a "bad" thing.

I am not saying that it is ideal to have one such organization running the entire system - there are pros and cons to this. But neither is it necessarily ideal to have many such organizations running the entire system - as you are currently discovering in the US. Even with many organizations running the show, you are subject to greed, frailties etc. In your OP, you mentioned taking power from the banks (and notice banks is the plural form - as opposed to one organization, one leader) and restoring it to "the people" - does this mean you wish to have it under government control?

There are a lot of skills and qualities required by leaders in leading systems and ensuring their continued success such as:

a) competence
b) motivation
c) integrity
d) honesty
etc...

In addition to this, leaders have to ensure the same qualities are held and maintained by those who work for them. This is the case regardless of whether you run a capitalist system, or a communist system.

In a communist system, granted, you cannot elect those who control the system. But in a capitalist system, where people don't understand leadership, and until recently didn't understand the concept of money or why the FED has a limited lifetime, you are subject to the same principles of greed.

Additionally, there is no way to personally *know* the president/prime minister and their motives (or the other members of congress or ministers) for much of the ordinary masses. So, it becomes a problem when electing them, to be ensured that they will keep your best interests at heart. This *is* a large scale system, and election campaigns are advertising, parties, speeches etc... The vast majority of the populace has no real contact with the individual who leads and has to have faith that he/she has the right motives etc. Building that trust through alternative means is all that candidates can do. I can tell you, there is nothing like working alongside someone to tell if he/she is honest and has integrity. Once elected, if a representative then uses the law to hide their incompetence/laziness/stealing etc... it is very difficult to catch them at it. Holding government accountable is near impossible in large scale systems.

This doesn't even begin to address the "Networks" problem that governments have to deal with - that remain with or without election.

So, often in these systems, these issues come around as a "Crash", and that is when the practices of the leaders and the concepts which have been used to establish things begin to get questioned, and what is really needed gets debated hotly.

So, for these reasons, I am neither in favour of capitalism, socialism, communism or any of the other large scale isms. Not that I don't believe in organization and their abilities to do things right in the world - I do. However, if you have a choice, my advice would be to choose as many people as possible who are good to work and live with.

reply to post by sensibleSenseless


I would love to have a beer and BBQ with you!

I have been a leader of Soldiers and have been on the other side of the Iron Curtin in the 80's. I was followed everywhere and we had to dress in our Class A's so they could easily ID us. Lotsa fun...not. East Germany was a dreary place. Didn't much like being watched everywhere we went either. Also had to stay in a group at all times. Quite the learning experiance at the time for a young Soldier.

But I would like to discuss the various techniques that you used to get people to do what you needed them to do.

As a NCO, I always reminded my guys that they were not mindless drones and I required them to think on their feet. On the other side, they were always expected to follow legal orders.

If they broke either rule, the consequenses were dire for that individual. It was a tightrope that made them better in my opinion. It made them think.

I think the OWS is still in the misguided phase and if they totally accept funding from the various groups, from Unions, MoveOn, SEIU and so forth, and reports say they have, they will lose more people and eventually be forgotten as the message, whatever it is, keeps getting more and more diluted as splinter groups form.

Just look at the Tea Party, the people who remained true, not the funded ones. You only hear about them on the local level.

OWS will be compromised in my opinion, and it will not be for the better. Just more division.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
Globalism on the march, the people you see on those streets are just clueless sheeple.

It is quite evident that is what you want it/them to be.

Originally posted by Observor

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
Globalism on the march, the people you see on those streets are just clueless sheeple.

It is quite evident that is what you want it/them to be.

Nope

It is what the money spent says it is, not a thing me or you or anyone on this earth can do to change what it really is, globalism on the march.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
It is what the money spent says it is, not a thing me or you or anyone on this earth can do to change what it really is, globalism on the march.

ATS and the one who started this thread may some agenda. By posting on this forum/thread I don't automatically become part of their agenda.

The OWS protests are no different.

reply to post by sensibleSenseless

So, for these reasons, I am neither in favour of capitalism, socialism, communism or any of the other large scale isms. Not that I don't believe in organization and their abilities to do things right in the world - I do. However, if you have a choice, my advice would be to choose as many people as possible who are good to work and live with.


I choose me and independence and freedom and the Constitution of America and you know what? That works real well for me. Don't need your advice to "choose as many people as possible who are good to work and live with" cuz well, I don't need 'em. I like my independent life living it without all those many people. I can say with certainty that I am in favor of Capitalism over Socialism, Communism and not afraid to state that. What's better? To me, it's the best here right now out of the rest of the world.

The protestors have their right to voice their opinion and I do respect that. What the ultimate goal of that is at the moment I'm not sure they even know. At least that is their right and they can put themselves out there to let it all play out.

This is the whole problem, I have posted a thread conserning this issue- what issue is that...
Everyone has problems... but no one has solutions...

I mean seriously... Slayer please give some solutions, it's alot harder to find a solution than to pick apart what the problems are when they ahve been so readily dissected here.

How would you fix everything..... I really want to know

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by NoHierarchy


Calm down?? Did you read the OP or not?? It was full of ridiculous assumptions and false connections... which is nothing new here, but you should also expect heated retaliations against unsubstantiated claims.

The movement is growing exponentially right now... most will join it soon enough, and judgments upon a relatively newborn movement are hot air lost on the wind.

Sorry,I wont be joining a bunch of misguided youth who are angry at the bankers. The Bankers dont make the Laws. The bankers who are politicians,make the laws.

Second,these youths are idiots,just like Obama. I watched these youths,while wearing their Che Guevara shirts,with their V for Vendetta masks on,chanting "down with the establishment". If they were smart,they would protest right across from the White House. They would get ALL the publicity they need.

You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it's an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.
Rahm Emanuel


They cant even protest right. Those "protesting" only for free Radiohead concert were disappointed. I was also......

You are an imbecile.

Originally posted by xuenchen

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

If you think there is a Communist conspiracy that's somehow locked in with unions, Anarchists, and Socialists, then you're either an uneducated moron or a disinformation/propaganda agent. Either way, you need to either educate yourself and come back to the adult discussion table or STFU immediately

If Occupy Wall Street threatens you... then you're probably not of a truly revolutionary/enlightened mind. And go ahead and tell me I'm being unfairly critical, but the truth is the truth and I'm not going to bite my tongue, I will tell you to your face that you're DEAD WRONG.

well,

if it's not any of the above,

please explain WHAT it really is all about then.

the rant is fine,

but some will not get your point.

How about, instead of believing the right-wing propaganda... you actually GO TO THEIR WEBSITES/PROTESTS AND FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELF?

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by NoHierarchy

 

What's wrong with being open minded on the issue, it's not like there isn't evidence to suggest groups affiliated to both the democrats and George soros have some involvement in this movement. How much effect they will have on the group is debatable. From what I have seen, OWS seems to understand that their group is vulnerable to being co-opted and used by government or other interest groups. I hope that they remain external interest free, but you have to recognise the possibility that they wil be exploited to further other's less well meaning agendas. Look what happened to the tea party.

I really don't believe much will come from these demonstrations, so those on the right should not lose too much sleep over these protests and if they are losing sleep then maybe they should get involved rather than snipe from the sidelines.

Having said that your post is divisive, I'm looking for ways to find a consensus, a common ground. All this with us or against us doesn't wash with me, never has.

Listen, I'm not saying the movement can't be hijacked, ANYTHING can be hijacked. However, my point is that all this hot air about Soros is just that. There's no weight at all to the conspiracy theory that Soros is some kind of puppet master of ANYTHING really. Yet... he is put on the same shelf as the Koch brothers, as if Soros is ANYWHERE NEAR as sinister, powerful, or wrong as they are. The Democrats cannot control this movement. If you know anything about the ACTUAL left-wing, you'd know they're far more critical of the Democrats than the right-wing is of the Republicans. The left-wing is TRULY much more broad, diverse, intelligent, educated, and mistrusting of authority than the right-wing, PERIOD. I'm not TRYING to be divisive, but I will NOT play the Faux News "fair-and-balanced" game by saying that both sides are equal when they are NOT. Occupy Wall Street has truly underground roots and has (and likely will) maintain a mostly grassroots/underground/populist direction. I'm not saying 100%, but from everything I know, this movement has real potential to challenge the status quo and I will not let propaganda detract people from knowing this.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

That's the whole point... I don't need to articulate a point-by-point refutation because the OP is ridiculous and irrelevant. Period. For those of you stupid enough to side with the OP and against me... you're not my friend, you're mentally stunted. I'm serious... I'm not gonna play nice with this propaganda, if you lend yourself, batting your eyelashes, to this kind of mislead BS, then you get no respect from me. I just want you to know that you're dead wrong whether you believe it or not.

YAWN

Sure, bub... sure.

I believe you that you could formulate a refutation of you really wanted to - you just don't want to, and the best you can do in that apathy is the say it's "ridiculous", "irrelevant", and we're "stupid", "mentally stunted", "propagandists", "disinfo agents", etc, etc. Sure, I BELIEVE that.... can't you see the spirals in my eyes?

If you SERIOUSLY wanted us to know we're "dead wrong", you would point out just why you think that, instead of sitting back and squealing like a little girl about it. The fact that you can't speaks volumes for why you believe as you do.

Out of curiosity, what is it that makes you think that we give a rats ass whether we are your friends or not? Perhaps you can articulate why you think that, since you can't seem to muster a rational response to the OP.

edit on 2011/10/7 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)

Hey... maybe you'll come around someday. For now though, it seems you've foregone doing your homework and picked your side. I've picked mine, and it's the side that has challenged the establishment for FAR LONGER and in a FAR more substantial way than you realize.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by NoHierarchy

I am an enlightened mind relative to the rest of you right-wing xenophobes. Listen... I'm not claiming I'm enlightened in respect to ego and humility at this point... because crap like this enrages me, and the fact that a fair amount of people follow it makes it even worse. I'm only human... and as a human who has tried, even against his own comfort/happiness, to seek the ultimate truth... I can only say you're a bunch of intellectual cowards who are siding with ANYTHING that will reinforce your bullsh*t worldview, even if it means railing against a truly anti-establishment movement.

Why should us knuckle-draggin' Neanderthals (no disrespect intended towards any actual Neanderthals reading) care how "enlightened" you are if you can't seem to articulate a coherent reason why you think you are "enlightened" and we are not? What is there about that sort of "enlightenment" that would make us want it? From here, it sounds like you're grunting, scratching and spitting with the same accent as the rest of the Neanderthals.

Cro Magnon had a new idea - and could articulate it.

You've missed my point. My point is that, if you'd DO YOUR HOMEWORK and actually visit the websites, attend the protests, talk to people involved, you'd figure out fairly rapidly that all of the conspiracy theories generated, all of the right-wing propaganda, is wrong. And until you research this, I don't feel like walking you through it step by step. Once you familiarize yourself with the movement, then we can have a debate (or god forbid, maybe an agreement) on its merits, tactics, and direction.