Should openly gay men shower with straight men in the army?

Originally posted by IamJustanAmerican
Are you like 15 or so?

There has always been gays in the military since there were armies.

Having served for over 20 years in the Navy I believe I am a fairly good authority on that fact.

For one,if you are required to shower with a group at one time, there is just a unspoken protocol that you keep your eyes up toward the wall.

Yes, there may be an "accidental" glance but one sure wouldn't want his buddy's catching him doing so!

Anybody believing that gays serving in the military will create problems or even just asking such an ignorant question are in no doubt in my mind, HOMOPHOBIC!

I know many military both officers and enlisted ,men and women who after serving quietly and honorably retired and then came out of the closet and lived openly as a gay person.

I am friends with them and have known them all for over 20 years.

The military is not like prison.

You're not going to be somebody's b*****.

And using your juvenile logic.. what about those individuals who declare they are bi-sexual in their orientation?

In most of Europe the public bathrooms are uni-sex.

The toilet areas are actually closets that both men and women use and can lock themselves in for privacy.

The urinals for men are in the common area though.

I know this from personal experience!

The Dutch Navy is completely integrated and men and women sleep in the same areas and shower together!

And do notice I never told you my sexual orientation.

It is none of your business.

edit on 19-9-2011 by IamJustanAmerican because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-9-2011 by IamJustanAmerican because: (no reason given)

Dude you didnt answer the question!!!

reply to post by mikeybiznaz

Well, strictly speaking according to the laws of attraction (just to make sure nobody gets turned on after being yelled at and running up and down a hill with rocks on your back all day) the gay men should shower with the straight women, and the straight men should shower with the lesbian women.

The stereotypes that people still have are hilarious.

Strangely, even in SA when there was conscription, a lot of racism and homophobia actually died in those barracks (OK, certainly not everywhere, but what is today called the "apartheid army" actually saw itself as fighting communism, and many young white South Africans fought alongside black soldiers, for whom they developed a mutual respect that didn't exist in civilian life).

I've read the same about the US army.
Some argue that segregation was not destroyed by civil rights; it was destroyed in the army barracks.
Isn't that where one really gets to know people that might otherwise never have mixed in a civilian segregation?

So even in this thread it is clear that many actual soldiers do not regard it as problematic, and the nationalistic ideals of "morality" and what an army represents seem more threatened in an abstract way, which is quite interesting.

Originally posted by Gazrok
The whole nudity issue really is rather childish.

I've got zero attraction to other guys, but I'm not going to be weirded out if a gay guy is showering next to me, or a naked woman. It's a shower.

People should try a nude beach sometime....then they'd see how nudity doesn't have to automatically equate with sexuality.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for us wearing clothes...but in cases where being nude makes more sense, (like bathing or swimming, or sunbathing), I just don't get why we've all made such a big deal about it.

better make that a nude beach where everybody grew up not wearing cloths there Moderator or you have a social problem...Just like you have now. Only the PINK ELEPHANT in the room knows its in the room cause everybody else has their heads in the politically correct sand. Time to make a stand again. What is right and what is wrong. Oh and lets not base our Laws on who's pocket gets the fullest from which Voting Platform

Well a straight man isn't going to be looking at another mans junk. A gay man will.

Oh goodness, what next?

Should the sado-masochists (of whatever orientation) in the army be excluded from physically punishing drills?

They may just enjoy the abuse.
Instead of push-ups it's more moral to give them "time out" in the "naughty chair".

After all, nobody should ever be expected to be mature enough to master their attractions or revulsions.
Only people exactly like "our group" should exist, and have the right to say they exist.

The rest must live a lie, when even in SA we were told that the USA was built on ideals like honesty (George Washington and the tree) and democracy, and "we the people", meaning all the people who live in that country!

And why single out the army?
Gay men have been showering with straight men in all kinds of masculine spaces, from schools to sport.

Originally posted by 200457
Well a straight man isn't going to be looking at another mans junk. A gay man will.

Actually the first thing I notice is a man's face.
I guess that means all straight men should start wearing a veil or the burka!

Originally posted by gamesmaster63
reply to post by GmoS719

 

I have to disagree with you on one thing, friend, homosexuals serving in the military should have the same right to express their sexuality as any straight member, whether they be sailor, soldier, marine or airman. Other service members should be adult enough to accept their differences.

IDIC...Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

But...the military isn't there for people to "express their sexuality." Your sexuality does not matter to the military, nor should it. Does this mean don't ask don't tell is right or wrong is a totally separate argument. The ARGUMENT is...should gays be allowed in the military, and most military members answer to that question, is that we don't care as long as it isn't an issue. If you joined the military as a homosexual, and were chaptered out due to your homosexuality, prior to the repeal of don't ask don't tell, then that isn't my fault, your fault, or anyone's fault, but said homosexuals. The military shouldn't be changing the rules for anyone. If my boss at work says I can't wear flip flops, I can't wear flip flops. If I'm discouraged from saying Merry Christmas, I don't say Merry Christmas. The military isn't their to give a # about anyone's sexuality. It isn't there to cater or to be equal to anybody's sexuality. It is there (agree or disagree) to defend our country and our flag. The military ALWAYS has been equal in inequality. The same rules apply to EVERYONE. Regardless of your beliefs, your sexuality, your political affiliations, your personal agendas...when you sign a contract...none of those matter until you fulfill the end of your agreement. Gays aren't the only ones who can't "publicly display their sexuality." Public displays of affection in uniform are actually a violation of the UCMJ and Military Regulations...this is ACROSS THE BOARD. Straight, Bi-sexual, Gay...it doesn't matter. The reason it isn't an issue for me to "practice my sexuality" is because as a straight man, I don't make my sexuality the hot topic everywhere I go. I don't tell everyone I encounter I am straight. I don't scream from rooftops about being straight. I don't go to "straight pride parades" and scream for "straight rights". I'm straight and I don't need to TELL people I am straight. Gays or bisexuals can be gay or bisexual, most of them I've ever known didn't NEED to tell me they were gay or bisexual. I KNEW they were gay or bisexual. The entire premise of don't ask don't tell is don't run around holding hands proclaiming your gayness and kissing on people of the same sex...not because you are GAY or BISEXUAL....straight people in the military are not afforded that behavior either. In a small pond, perhaps a Lieutenant or Captain or first line leader or whatever might not give two #s. Gay or straight....(I've seen examples of both being accepted as far as public displays of affection go), but in the grand scheme of things...it's never been something the army condones or appreciates. Gay or straight.

reply to post by FoxfilesMulder

Should openly gay men shower with straight men in the army?

Tough subject. My first thought is that regardless of your opinion, someone is going to tag you with some negativity so... it's a no-win situation.

The question is whether the current gender separation policies of the US military are based on gender alone.

My first guess is that the boys would quickly sign up for the unisex shower facilities but the women might tend to feel a bit intimidated. Guys at this age are already testosterone-driven machines. Mix in the male hubris that comes with military life and what is often long days of isolation from the objects of their natural tendencies... and you have a lot of potential for problems.

Females may be driven by some of the same urges but not nearly at the same levels. Walking into a multi-head shower facility with a bunch of guys could be a bit more than uncomfortable. Besides that, the female has regular needs for privacy that extend beyond a simple wish for safety.

The issue with homosexuals in the same environment creates a whole new dynamic. If you have that same bathing facility populated by a bunch of hetero guys who suddenly notice that one of their own gender is sporting a one-eye-willie standing at full attention, that could become problematic as well.

These things are not a matter of choice. The male, human machine is plumbed and wired for involuntary reaction when it comes to sex. In a nutshell, we don't have a button we can push that sends the sentry back to his post. Once he's out and on alert, it can be quite obvious and sometimes, even downright physically uncomfortable until he's relieved.

Even if service men (and women) have no objection to serving alongside homosexuals, there are bound to be instances of friction that would otherwise not arise. I suspect that the transition will be a difficult one... not because of any prejudice (though that may occur as well), but simply because of the nature of the age group, hormones and the preloaded firmware involved.

reply to post by redoubt

The issue with homosexuals in the same environment creates a whole new dynamic. If you have that same bathing facility populated by a bunch of hetero guys who suddenly notice that one of their own gender is sporting a one-eye-willie standing at full attention, that could become problematic as well.

In the old SADF they put some chemical called Bluestone (Blue Vitriol) into the coffee, which was supposed to temporarily prevent erections and desire. I'm sure other militaries use similar substances. At a large dose Bluestone is actually toxic.
I guess that was a bit of an admission that in a homosocial environment some straight men might not be so straight.

A post above says that straight men never look at each others' "junk" (another interesting Americanism).
So I wonder how they would notice if another guy has an erection.
I mean, they shouldn't really know.
Besides, some men may daydream about their girlfriend or Pamela Anderson or Sarah Palin, or whoever.
I don't think that's a good indicator of being gay, or of necessarily responding to something directly visual.

reply to post by FoxfilesMulder


There is no reason for Men and Women to shower separately in the military or police or fire departments. So there definitely isn't any reason for Homo and Hetero male soldiers to shower separately.

The reason for this is pathetic puritan nonsense that has been, is and will continue to be the bane of western civilization until the GD rapture happens and takes all the religious idiots away.

And since that isn't going to happen. We're pretty much stuck like this.

Originally posted by Butterbone
reply to post by FoxfilesMulder

 

There is no reason for Men and Women to shower separately in the military or police or fire departments. So there definitely isn't any reason for Homo and Hetero male soldiers to shower separately.

The reason for this is pathetic puritan nonsense that has been, is and will continue to be the bane of western civilization until the GD rapture happens and takes all the religious idiots away.

And since that isn't going to happen. We're pretty much stuck like this.

Actually there is a very good reason for it...maybe you should read up on the increase of not only reported cases of sexual harassment (male and female) but also on the increase in sexual assault (males and females reporting, alike.) So you are telling me you want your daughters showering with boys after gym class because there is no reason for them to shower separately? You are on the fringe my friend.

Great reply mademyself1984!

I also don't think genders should be showering together IMO.

Maybe if we all had great bodies and ripped from head to toe, but I think people who aren't like this will feel the heat.

Genders should be separated, and sexual desires should be separated also.

Now I know if this was implemented, it would only work if people were open about their sexual orientation etc, so the only system that would work is "private showering".

Its not too much to ask for the army or similar to knock up a privacy barrier to block the lower regions of a person into access denied.

Anyone else agree, disagree?

reply to post by FoxfilesMulder

I would agree on some parts and disagree on others.

I think that anyone who cannot control their sexuality, or cannot separate fantasy form reality shouldn't be in an army.
As for just covering the "nether regions": I'm not sure how practical that is. In the army you also learn to wash yourself without showers in a field situation, and that basically involves a bowl of water per person washing their "junk" and their armpits. However in a situation like that one is being watched and trained very closely, and while the cat might be out of the bag, there is simply no time or interest to gawk at it.
In reality "nether regions" are not special in themselves (just a big bush usually anyway).

Like a lot of gay men I was very locker-room shy in school, and it took a while to be socialized into that aspect of masculinity.
I think communal showers are quite an important aspect of bonding and comparison in a non sexual way.
You want to be casual and discuss the events of the day, or if there's something odd with a painful muscle or such, you'd like some comment and advice.
Also the greatest bonus of being in an environment of physical activity is to notice how your body is changing, and it is a great thing to have that validated by either gender.

I know different cultures and countries have different attitudes to nudism.
However, I wouldn't be comfortable with gender-mixed showers.
One does fear some kind of gender vindictiveness.
With men (gay or straight) I wouldn't have a problem, because we are all imperfect within the masculine variety of physicality.
Nobody will laugh at me or me at them, because the finger can point right back.
However, with the other gender I'm not so sure.
In our Western culture it is too sexualized.
I don't fear sexuality as much as bullying and vindictiveness - like a whole bunch of women telling some poor guy his "junk" is too small.
We see that behavior in film all the time nowadays.
I couldn't even think of a retort to that as a man.

I've been to Trance festivals where both genders were washing naked in the sea, and it wasn't a problem.
However, in an environment where tempers may unravel I just don't think it's a good idea.
Men may silently compare whatever it is they wish to compare (and usually it's the arms and chest muscles) to place themselves into a social order amongst men, but they will never, ever comment on it.
That would be a total breach of the masculine code.
You do get some inexperienced gay men who act like stereotypes and "size queens", but they wouldn't even make it through the gates.

Therefore, since gay men have been in armies since they existed, I don't think any special privacy is necessary simply because now they may utter that they are gay.
I'm sure everybody knew it already before the time.
Most cultures are comfortable with a basic gender division.
Gay men too may have felt awkward in certain situations (but everybody wants to see us as the bad predators, when we also have fears and complexes that we must overcome). We are actually far more vulnerable to people's judgements about our bodies. So gay men actually have far more to deal with than the straight men around them.
Being gay is ultimately what you do with your private life off base, and the professional and stressed atmosphere is not conductive to perving over your mates.

However, with all those festering feet I do wonder about the foot fetishists - oh dear, how will they control themselves ...?

Originally posted by mademyself1984

Originally posted by Butterbone
reply to post by FoxfilesMulder

 

There is no reason for Men and Women to shower separately in the military or police or fire departments. So there definitely isn't any reason for Homo and Hetero male soldiers to shower separately.

The reason for this is pathetic puritan nonsense that has been, is and will continue to be the bane of western civilization until the GD rapture happens and takes all the religious idiots away.

And since that isn't going to happen. We're pretty much stuck like this.

Actually there is a very good reason for it...maybe you should read up on the increase of not only reported cases of sexual harassment (male and female) but also on the increase in sexual assault (males and females reporting, alike.) So you are telling me you want your daughters showering with boys after gym class because there is no reason for them to shower separately? You are on the fringe my friend.

edit on 9/23/2011 by mademyself1984 because: (no reason given)

Again all of these issues are because kids are taught that sex and nudity are naughty and bad and shamefull, and then all they see or hear all day long in music and tv and movies is SEX SEX SEX NAKED NAKED NAKED.

The ideas we use in daily life create the problems we have to deal with. Sexual harassment is a problem because boys are that they are supposed to be macho and "take" what they want and they aren't really a man unless they are having sex with 3 different girls in a week and girls are taught to dress like a whore to get the right guys attention and then not have sex because it is bad and the devil will possess them if they do.


It's idiotic. It's a way of making people so co-dependent and ignorant that they feel like they are required to do these bad things. Doing the wrong thing is the fastest way to be normal.

And I would LOVE to be able to find some of you "Catchem lookin at me and I'll break their face" guys in real life.
I gurantee that the reality is much different than the fantasies you are expressing on the inviso-net.
And I'm not even gay.

I'd say hygiene is a crucial factor in communal living.
Showering or washing in that context is not a joke.
One unclean person could spread a fungus, parasite or disease across a whole group of people, and make them essentially useless.

Is male hygiene different to female hygiene?
Maybe not with a casual shower, but ultimately it probably is different.

We're raised the way that people discuss specific problems with their own gender.
It's probably a good idea to see your buddies' backs and butts, just in case some weird boils or green moss is growing there.
In that sense it's very important.

But totally mixed?
I recall a few years ago some clubs tried that with toilets.
But they all went bankrupt.
In the culture here it is still a long way from reality.

And to all the guys who feel that people are staring at them in the locker room - don't just assume it's cheeky glances from gay men.
You might have some growth on your ass!

No jokes - many a serious medical condition has been diagnosed and treated because of the locker room. So it's best to get to know everyone and build up a friendship.
Your friends have literally got your back!

Well here's a 1950s Army clip on Personal Hygiene.
I'm not sure however, I think like a lot material from that time it has a racist subtext?



However, I think the ultimate message is that hygiene is good and desirable.
It's an inclusive aspect of masculinity.
Men in those days were expected to be thick-skinned, and ethnic (or other) teasing was considered funny.
In fact, if you weren't teased about something you'd probably be an outcast.

Female hygiene on the other hand was far more delicate and individualistic:


However, it is in this last clip that we get an idea of the USA in the 1950s, and the vast array of foods that signal a high living standard that the world had barely seen in history.
Well I suppose, even in the first clip the men couldn't break wind if they didn't eat well.
So there's a degree of material comfort implied in all of this, that wants to take people out of the "filth" of the depression.
Hygiene is now available and everyone should learn to celebrate and use it.

reply to post by halfoldman


Hahah thanks for the jokes and clips!!!

Always wear sandals in a community shower, always.

That's my good hygiene rule.

reply to post by TruthSeekerMike


Does that apply to gay women too? Or would you sell tickets?

reply to post by redoubt


Again this false idea that gay men are like bonobo monkeys, unable to control their perverted desires, ready to prey on poor GI Joe as he washes his wanger. So many straight, prejudiced men think this - but they shouldn't flatter themselves. Just because someone's gay or bi doesn't mean they can't have standards.

Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
reply to post by redoubt

 

Again this false idea that gay men are like bonobo monkeys, unable to control their perverted desires, ready to prey on poor GI Joe as he washes his wanger. So many straight, prejudiced men think this - but they shouldn't flatter themselves. Just because someone's gay or bi doesn't mean they can't have standards.

That's not the idea at all actually. The idea is no different than men and women sharing separate latrines, showers, and living quarters. Most frustrating thing about the entire issue of homosexuality is that if anyone disagrees with it it is because they "don't understand" or are "intolerant" or "prejudiced"...when in reality it is simply that I'm not a homosexual, and because of this, I don't HAVE to like, or agree with, or subject myself to their lifestyle.