Should openly gay men shower with straight men in the army?

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posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by mademyself1984
 

So what is your solution?
What is your perfect lifestyle, and its description that it should be a standard template for everyone?




posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by mademyself1984
 

So what is your solution?
What is your perfect lifestyle, and its description that it should be a standard template for everyone?




That's kinda my point. Why should I have a solution? You want to live a homosexual lifestyle, fine, if not, fine. I don't really care. Why should me, or anyone else for that matter come up with a "solution". Is there one? My perfect lifestyle isn't your perfect lifestyle. Why in the hell do people take such offense with straight people telling gay people to keep the gay lifestyle out of their straight lives? I don't force straightness on anybody, why should I be subjected to homosexuality against my wishes? If I wanted to serve as an openly gay member of the military, I would have kept my mouth shut in hopes of the don't ask don't tell appeal passing, and then I would have served openly gay. If I wanted to be around other gays, I would go to a gay bar, or a gay social function, or simply meet another gay person (believe it or not, in a lot of instances it isn't difficult to spot someone who is homosexual, whether it is in their mannerisms, the way they talk, dress, or carry themselves, that was probably an intolerant comment wasn't it?) Again, WHY SHOULD I CARE, AND WHY SHOULD I HAVE THE SOLUTION? Why can't Gays be as open minded and tolerant as they expect everyone else to be?



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by mademyself1984
 

That's all fair and good what you argue.
But we are talking about the army.

I assume people do know that there probably about 200 000 gay and lesbian people in the US army.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by mademyself1984
 

That's all fair and good what you argue.
But we are talking about the army.

I assume people do know that there probably about 200 000 gay and lesbian people in the US army.



I'm not disputing whether or not they should be allowed to serve openly. My only complaint ever about the Don't Ask Don't Tell ordeal was that if they had signed a contract under the previous regulations (which were also laws) and they were not forthcoming with their homosexuality, then there is no reason for anybody to feel sorry for them. They lied in order to join. That's no different than someone concealing their drug use, previous felony convictions, etc., and THAT is why they were being discharged. Because they knowingly and willingly broke UCMJ law. Now that they can serve openly, that is all fair and good. I have no issue with gay men or lesbian women serving along side me. I do take issue with those that seem to think their sexuality is more important than their service to the United States Military. The UCMJ does not allow for male/female cohabitation. It does not allow for public displays of affection amongst straight soldiers, and there is in fact a code of conduct related to conducting yourself in a professional manner. Which MANY gays I have served with (who were serving under the guise of being straight upon enlistment) completely ignored and carried on about as unprofessionally as one possibly could, in some cases drawing so much attention to their behavior that it was "discovered" they were in fact homosexuals and they were in fact discharged from the Army. One of them was sent home from our last deployment because of the way he carried on with his behavior. A gay soldier and a straight soldier are both soldiers. It should make no difference, and it should never be a topic of discussion, what one soldier's sexuality is compared to another. And I would say your estimate of 200,000 gays/lesbians in the United States Army is way off...perhaps in the military as a whole, but there is absolutely no way a quarter of the US Army is homosexual. They are a very slim minority, however, with the appeal of the previous policy I am sure the number of them will rise. It isn't a who is gay, who is straight issue that I have an issue with. It's an I don't care if you are or not issue.



posted on Sep, 25 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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Hey my friend, the irony is that you have put so much thought into something you say doesn't really matter.
I hope you got it off your chest.
My numbers and statistics are not necessarily accurate (I never claimed they were, but I did read those numbers).
There will always be people who abuse power and positions.
The US military is far away from myself, but you certainly sound like somebody that I'd be proud to have around.
While it's fine for you to complain from your vantage point, have you ever tried thinking of what it must be like from the view of the "other"?
How do you think they experienced straight society?



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 01:12 AM
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reply to post by sonofliberty1776
 


That's the straight's problem, not the gays. You need to work out why someone else's nature provokes psychopathic rage out of any proportion to reality.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 01:20 AM
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reply to post by mademyself1984
 


No one is 'subjecting' anyone to anything, except straights are denying gay/bi people something they take for granted. You're right, the army is not about 'expressing sexuality': it's about killing people. And people of all persuasions have been fighting and killing happily for centuries - how does knowledge of sexuality change that? But on the subject of 'expressing', the straight end of things forget that they are doing just that, but because they unconsciously assume themselves to be the norm, they don't even realise they're doing it. That's how it should be with gay/bi people. Believe it or not, we don't actually get turned on by people telling us when and where we can be ourselves. It's clear that gay/bi soldiers can keep their mind on the job of killing - can you?



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
reply to post by mademyself1984
 


No one is 'subjecting' anyone to anything, except straights are denying gay/bi people something they take for granted. You're right, the army is not about 'expressing sexuality': it's about killing people. And people of all persuasions have been fighting and killing happily for centuries - how does knowledge of sexuality change that? But on the subject of 'expressing', the straight end of things forget that they are doing just that, but because they unconsciously assume themselves to be the norm, they don't even realise they're doing it. That's how it should be with gay/bi people. Believe it or not, we don't actually get turned on by people telling us when and where we can be ourselves. It's clear that gay/bi soldiers can keep their mind on the job of killing - can you?



What a ridiculous reply. You just proved my previous two posts. So now that they can serve openly, what is being denied? Your post is entirely dramatized. The military isn't about "killing people". It's much more complex than that. On both of my deployments to Iraq I've witnessed countless acts and examples of humanitarian missions and clear, cut and dry instances of good humanity by American Soldiers. You must have missed the part where I said I don't care whether or not you are straight or gay, just like you don't care whether or not I am straight or gay. The entire issue, is it shouldn't be an issue? Correct? So, when it isn't an issue, tell your homosexual counterparts to stop grasping for the straws needed to make it one. And, it's clear gay/bi soldiers can keep their mind on the job of killing? Did you read my post? The ones I have served with clearly couldn't keep their mind on anything other than their gay or bi pride, because their exuberant and unprofessional behavior got them sent home. So no, they didn't keep their minds on their jobs, because they couldn't finish the same tour of duty that 150 other soldiers did. It wouldn't have been an issue if they weren't bragging to other soldiers about their sexual escapades with other service members or posting pictures of them kissing other men on their "life as a gay soldier" blogs....Another example of an intolerant gay screaming for tolerance. Tolerance isn't the issue. The issue is you minding your business, me minding my business, and patiently waiting for the rest of the country to reach the same conclusion I did. Gays are gay. Straights are straight. And that should be about the end of that conversation? Should it not?



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


That's my point though...I'm not "complaining". I'm saying there certainly are situations in which Gays and Straights, like males and females, should and most likely will, be segregated. It's nothing personal. It doesn't make me or anybody else intolerant or rude or anything else. All I'm essentially saying, is it is only an "issue" because it is constantly forced to be an issue. Nothing is going to change over night and once people accept that, there will be less people screaming inequality at every corner. I'm straight. I don't know why people choose to be Gay. That being said, I don't have a problem with people living their lives they want to live them as long as they aren't hurting anyone but themselves (not saying gays are hurting themselves, I mean that in the context of marijuana users, prostitutes, etc.). The second someone else is hurt because of something someone does, then I think it is absolutely necessary that the right people step in and put a stop to it. Some of my good friends are gay, and the reason they are good friends is because I know they are gay and it isn't a topic of discussion. Just like me being straight isn't a topic of discussion. I don't need to hear about why someone is gay, or how someone is gay, or what makes a person attracted to members of the same sex. That stuff isn't important. My cousin is gay. His partner is a pretty cool dude. I love my cousin to death and I'm proud of him for coming out and being who he is. The thing is though, he came out, and that was that. It didn't become regular conversation at every family function or card game or trip to the bar. I just think the homosexuals in this country would be better treated if they acknowledged that change isn't going to just happen, people aren't going to wake up and say "ya know, I don't mind if gays can get married." And people aren't going to wake up and understand, or care to understand, probably ever. Things are definitely getting better for homosexuals in this country and if they deny that then I invite them to petition that we resort back to the way things were. Certain things DO in fact need to be addressed though, if being homosexual is going to be respected or treated the same way as being straight. That is to say boys and girls share different locker rooms in school. Men and women don't shower together in the service. And Gays and Straights shouldn't either. I don't care if gays aren't checking out other straight dudes...It is an issue of comfort and if it makes even 1 soldier uncomfortable, then they should be afforded the same "equal rights" as homosexuals. Other wise it's all contradictory, all over again. Everybody deserves to be comfortable. And just because somebody "thinks" I should be comfortable with it, isn't indicative of anything other than that person being intolerant of other people's lifestyles and personal beliefs.
edit on 9/26/2011 by mademyself1984 because: (no reason given)
edit on 9/26/2011 by mademyself1984 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 03:42 AM
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reply to post by mademyself1984
 

You raise a lot of important and valid points.
To even think of just a few as a reply is quite challenging.
I do like your tone however, because I can see you are sincere, and speaking your mind without being deliberately hurtful.

Let me just say that you talk about people "choosing" to be gay.
Religion tries to use all sexuality to prove its point, and they are quick to point out any lack in scientific knowledge.
However, most of what they say on gender and gay people is rubbish.
The overwhelming scientific evidence suggests that being gay is not chosen.

I would also challenge stereotypical thinking about gay people.
Some are recognizable, but others are not.
So if a gay man acts just like a straight man, then how does it make you uncomfortable?

Is it not worth something that gay men were willing to fight and die for their country?
And look at all the crap they had to go through to do it!
That's a huge thumbs up to any country or ideal.
I don't understand Americans sometimes.
Your gay brothers went through so much, and were willing to die beside you!
But oh no, I don't want to shower next to them ... please segregate them ...
I do find it hard to understand.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by mademyself1984
 

You raise a lot of important and valid points.
To even think of just a few as a reply is quite challenging.
I do like your tone however, because I can see you are sincere, and speaking your mind without being deliberately hurtful.

Let me just say that you talk about people "choosing" to be gay.
Religion tries to use all sexuality to prove its point, and they are quick to point out any lack in scientific knowledge.
However, most of what they say on gender and gay people is rubbish.
The overwhelming scientific evidence suggests that being gay is not chosen.

I would also challenge stereotypical thinking about gay people.
Some are recognizable, but others are not.
So if a gay man acts just like a straight man, then how does it make you uncomfortable?

Is it not worth something that gay men were willing to fight and die for their country?
And look at all the crap they had to go through to do it!
That's a huge thumbs up to any country or ideal.
I don't understand Americans sometimes.
Your gay brothers went through so much, and were willing to die beside you!
But oh no, I don't want to shower next to them ... please segregate them ...
I do find it hard to understand.


Thank you for not taking any of my posts out of context! First and foremost! But to elaborate on a specific question you raise, a gay man who acts just like a straight man (whether or not I know he is homosexual) doesn't make me uncomfortable. And a gay man who is obviously (or has informed me) a gay man also doesn't make me uncomfortable. It is an issue because not everyone views it that way and to be fair, nobody can expect everyone to. I also don't believe it should matter if someone is a homosexual and they want to serve in their armed forces, however their service certainly needs to be handled in the same manner as that of men serving with women. Again, I don't mean that for any disparaging reasons, simply that those of us who are not bothered by it are the minority. You can't just force immediate change on everyone and not expect something bad to happen. Over time people will certainly become more comfortable simply because people will be raising their kids to accept people for who they are. I never so much supported Don't Ask Don't Tell, I simply did not support those who joined under the guise of being heterosexual and then blatantly broke and violated military codes of conduct and regulations that were written and in place upon their signing of the contract. With the policy gone there definitely needs to be new regulations dealing directly with the cohabitation and hygiene questions that are certainly going to come up. I personally don't have an issue, but I'm also an NCO and understand that a good number of my soldiers most likely will, and they deserve to be comfortable just as any gays serving in the military deserve to be comfortable. The military absolutely cannot cater to one group or another, that's what got this country, and the military into a number of messes. You can't please everyone, so draw a line, and please as many people as best as you can. I served next to a lot of women as well, who would have died for any one of use, but that didn't mean we should be showering together or sharing a cot at night.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 02:22 PM
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I personally think we need to get over the childish nudity issue and be done with it.

If you go to a nude beach with both men and women, even if you've never done it before, and went nude, you'd find (within about 10 min), that we really make it a MUCH bigger deal than it needs to be.

While I do recognize the inconvenience of amorous relationships in combat, I also recognize that unless you are going to make a different shower for EVERYONE, you're going to be showering with those that may be attracted to you. That said, I'm not sure why we even have different showers for the different sexes, other than the remnants of our own puritanical beliefs.

Kind of ridiculous really.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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I have a cheap solution.

Openly gay men must shower with their eyes closed.

Bisexuals (or some of those men who aren't too picky) get to keep one eye open.

And no peeking, or you get the blindfold!



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by 200457
Well a straight man isn't going to be looking at another mans junk. A gay man will.


Gotta disagree, everyone checks out the competition.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by mademyself1984
But...the military isn't there for people to "express their sexuality." Your sexuality does not matter to the military, nor should it. Does this mean don't ask don't tell is right or wrong is a totally separate argument. The ARGUMENT is...should gays be allowed in the military, and most military members answer to that question, is that we don't care as long as it isn't an issue. If you joined the military as a homosexual, and were chaptered out due to your homosexuality, prior to the repeal of don't ask don't tell, then that isn't my fault, your fault, or anyone's fault, but said homosexuals. The military shouldn't be changing the rules for anyone. If my boss at work says I can't wear flip flops, I can't wear flip flops. If I'm discouraged from saying Merry Christmas, I don't say Merry Christmas. The military isn't their to give a # about anyone's sexuality. It isn't there to cater or to be equal to anybody's sexuality. It is there (agree or disagree) to defend our country and our flag. The military ALWAYS has been equal in inequality. The same rules apply to EVERYONE. Regardless of your beliefs, your sexuality, your political affiliations, your personal agendas...when you sign a contract...none of those matter until you fulfill the end of your agreement. Gays aren't the only ones who can't "publicly display their sexuality." Public displays of affection in uniform are actually a violation of the UCMJ and Military Regulations...this is ACROSS THE BOARD. Straight, Bi-sexual, Gay...it doesn't matter. The reason it isn't an issue for me to "practice my sexuality" is because as a straight man, I don't make my sexuality the hot topic everywhere I go. I don't tell everyone I encounter I am straight. I don't scream from rooftops about being straight. I don't go to "straight pride parades" and scream for "straight rights". I'm straight and I don't need to TELL people I am straight. Gays or bisexuals can be gay or bisexual, most of them I've ever known didn't NEED to tell me they were gay or bisexual. I KNEW they were gay or bisexual. The entire premise of don't ask don't tell is don't run around holding hands proclaiming your gayness and kissing on people of the same sex...not because you are GAY or BISEXUAL....straight people in the military are not afforded that behavior either. In a small pond, perhaps a Lieutenant or Captain or first line leader or whatever might not give two #s. Gay or straight....(I've seen examples of both being accepted as far as public displays of affection go), but in the grand scheme of things...it's never been something the army condones or appreciates. Gay or straight.


I'll give you that no personnel are allowed public displays of affection while in uniform.

I'll also admit that I wasn't clear enough on what I intended, I meant that off post and out of uniform it should not make a difference, a slong as they not behave in a manner that brings discredit to the service.



posted on Sep, 26 2011 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by FlyingSpaghettiMonster
reply to post by mademyself1984
 


No one is 'subjecting' anyone to anything, except straights are denying gay/bi people something they take for granted. You're right, the army is not about 'expressing sexuality': it's about killing people. And people of all persuasions have been fighting and killing happily for centuries - how does knowledge of sexuality change that? But on the subject of 'expressing', the straight end of things forget that they are doing just that, but because they unconsciously assume themselves to be the norm, they don't even realise they're doing it. That's how it should be with gay/bi people. Believe it or not, we don't actually get turned on by people telling us when and where we can be ourselves. It's clear that gay/bi soldiers can keep their mind on the job of killing - can you?


I agree with much of what you say here, but I do have an issue about the army being about "killing people", although that is one of the things they may be required to do, the army, and the Armed Forces in total, is about serving and defending your country.



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by gamesmaster63

Originally posted by mademyself1984
But...the military isn't there for people to "express their sexuality." Your sexuality does not matter to the military, nor should it. Does this mean don't ask don't tell is right or wrong is a totally separate argument. The ARGUMENT is...should gays be allowed in the military, and most military members answer to that question, is that we don't care as long as it isn't an issue. If you joined the military as a homosexual, and were chaptered out due to your homosexuality, prior to the repeal of don't ask don't tell, then that isn't my fault, your fault, or anyone's fault, but said homosexuals. The military shouldn't be changing the rules for anyone. If my boss at work says I can't wear flip flops, I can't wear flip flops. If I'm discouraged from saying Merry Christmas, I don't say Merry Christmas. The military isn't their to give a # about anyone's sexuality. It isn't there to cater or to be equal to anybody's sexuality. It is there (agree or disagree) to defend our country and our flag. The military ALWAYS has been equal in inequality. The same rules apply to EVERYONE. Regardless of your beliefs, your sexuality, your political affiliations, your personal agendas...when you sign a contract...none of those matter until you fulfill the end of your agreement. Gays aren't the only ones who can't "publicly display their sexuality." Public displays of affection in uniform are actually a violation of the UCMJ and Military Regulations...this is ACROSS THE BOARD. Straight, Bi-sexual, Gay...it doesn't matter. The reason it isn't an issue for me to "practice my sexuality" is because as a straight man, I don't make my sexuality the hot topic everywhere I go. I don't tell everyone I encounter I am straight. I don't scream from rooftops about being straight. I don't go to "straight pride parades" and scream for "straight rights". I'm straight and I don't need to TELL people I am straight. Gays or bisexuals can be gay or bisexual, most of them I've ever known didn't NEED to tell me they were gay or bisexual. I KNEW they were gay or bisexual. The entire premise of don't ask don't tell is don't run around holding hands proclaiming your gayness and kissing on people of the same sex...not because you are GAY or BISEXUAL....straight people in the military are not afforded that behavior either. In a small pond, perhaps a Lieutenant or Captain or first line leader or whatever might not give two #s. Gay or straight....(I've seen examples of both being accepted as far as public displays of affection go), but in the grand scheme of things...it's never been something the army condones or appreciates. Gay or straight.


I'll give you that no personnel are allowed public displays of affection while in uniform.

I'll also admit that I wasn't clear enough on what I intended, I meant that off post and out of uniform it should not make a difference, a slong as they not behave in a manner that brings discredit to the service.



And this is where I agree with you 100 percent, off post and out of uniform it should never have ever made a difference!



posted on Sep, 27 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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I have a cheap solution.

Openly gay men must shower with their eyes closed.

Bisexuals (or some of those men who aren't too picky) get to keep one eye open.

And no peeking, or you get the blindfold!




Or simply give the GIs the option to shower in swim speedos....see what they pick, hehe....

I could really care less if some gay guy is looking at me naked. Then again, I usually don't even care if a gal sees me naked, so there you go.






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