The Confederate Flag: A Disturbing Trend?

Taken from the source listed here: (The words of Abraham Lincoln)

www.lib.niu.edu...




" I will say then that I am not, nor have I ever been in the favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races . . . There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I... am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race ... I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position that the negroe should be deprived everything. "

reply to post by Feltrick


Atari is/was an American company!

Otherwise, carry on!

reply to post by gimme_some_truth

Very misleading of you.. Slavery was happening on this soil, long before we were a country....The fact is that the first slaves to come to what is now called the United States,were brought here starting in around 1526.

No more misleading than others stating that slavery was the primary reason for the secession. If you will check the rest of my posts in this thread, you will see I actually admit it was one of the reasons. To state that the whole war was over slavery, however, is to show a complete lack of understanding of history.

Yeah, because that is where the first white settlers were.... It spread through out the land...Not sure why that is supposed to matter.... Eventually the north took a general stand against it, the south, for it....

That is a vastly oversimplified explanation.

During that era, slavery was a common practice. A great deal of the original settlers came to the US as indentured servants, a lower form of temporary slavery. It wasn't long before slave traders discovered the newly-emerging market for their 'product' and began importing slaves into New England. The southern states were fairly poor and thus were overlooked by the profit-seeking slave-traders.

As time went on, some southern landowners began to use slaves as a labor source, allowing them to produce more of their crops. The Industrial Revolution aided this change by increasing the demand for cotton, grown in the South. Slavery became an established practice in the South during this time, used by the landowners to manage to run plantations. I should also point out that slaves were not all treated badly; many of them were treated much better than some workers are treated today. That is not to say that slavery is in any way proper, only to set the record straight. As a general rule, slaves in the South were treated better than slaves i the north.

Then, suddenly, the northern states, which were still slave states, began a social move away from slavery and toward commercial workers. There were differences between these classifications; workers could leave their jobs, if they were willing to risk starvation and ostracization from society, while slaves could not; owners of slaves had to spend time and money controlling and housing slaves, while they were not responsible for housing/feeding workers and could simply fire them if they did not perform. But there were also similarities: many workers were paid in company script, not cash, and could therefore only use their wages for the things the company they worked for were willing to let them have; workers could be treated as little more than property or fired, just as slaves were treated as property or whipped/beat.

It was not a complete removal of slavery; it was a shift to making slaves do more toward their own survival, while also increasing the working population to include all poor instead of just blacks.

This worked well in the industrializing north, as businesses were physically much smaller than the huge plantations in the South. A thousand acres of land would make only a small section of a plantation, but could house many businesses in the north complete with boarding houses and company stores.

The move against slavery was not a sudden compulsion of humanity toward blacks in the South either; it was an engineered social move designed to keep plantation sizes down and improve the ability of northern businesses to use financial leverage to keep prices for agricultural products low. Dealing with a few large plantations meant the South had more control over prices, while smaller farmers in greater need for cash flow meant financial leverage could be used.

The average Yankee saw this as a humanitarian issue: we obviously don't need slaves, and slavery seems counter to our ideals. The average southerner saw the issue more as wealthy businessmen trying to make life difficult for them. So slavery was an issue, yes, but not a humanitarian issue as most people believe. It was not over the abolition of slavery, but over the change from open slavery to covert slavery.

Stop and think logically a moment: the vast majority of Southerners did not own slaves, or would they probably ever be able to own slaves. Slaves were expensive, both to acquire and to maintain, well beyond the ability of most Southerners, yet those same Southerners wet to war and fought and died?

No, the war was not about slavery... the war was about the right of Southerners to be treated fairly according to the US Constitution. We lost, thanks in large part to criminal tactics employed by the Union. And now today, we have a continuing social movement to remove the last vestige of that war for rights still ongoing.

No, I will not stop flying my flag. I will not forget that government is tyranny, hopefully controlled, but tyranny nonetheless.

TheRedneck

reply to post by AlreadyGone

Absolutely correct, and thank you for posting. Some are just too un- educated in these matters, we must excuse them at times. Connecting the Confederacy with Al Qaeda is grasping at straws, Butterbone, and you sir, do not know what you are talking about.

reply to post by xEphon

www.merriam-webster.com...
Definition of SYMBOLISM 1 : the art or practice of using symbols especially by investing things with a symbolic meaning or by expressing the invisible or intangible by means of visible or sensuous representations: as a : artistic imitation or invention that is a method of revealing or suggesting immaterial, ideal, or otherwise intangible truth or states

Like many symbols they have changed the original meanings of it.

The peace symbol comes to mind many think of it as peace yet it is really

www.crossroad.to...
Vikings called it "Toten Rune (Death Rune)," while some Germanic people labeled it Todesrune (Rune of Death).[7] After WW2 (1939-1945), it was found on the tombstones of certain Hitler's SS troops and labeled 'The Dead Man Rune.' [Reference to bottom image of Scandinavian runes at [8]

Yet the Confederate flag is a symbol I believe it is a symbol of Division.

The south and north could not agree upon many things besides slavery.

But I do have to agree that now when it is seen I see in my heart Rebel, hate towards others, Division.

Mark 3
[24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
[25] And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

reply to post by TheRedneck



Well said.

A lot of people simply do not search the historical account. Maybe they need to read up on what exactly "federalism" is. Those who write the history books do so from their own bias, not the actual account. It's a wonder that people don't read the Constitution, the second amendment where the states are described as " free state" . Even the founding fathers intended for individual states to retain their rights as being sovereign entities. It always was, and will always be about freedom. Not slaves verses free men. Slavery would have eventually died out in the south as it did in other nations.

On slavery, the only difference between the slavery of the past and now is that today they use you for work, give you an allotment of money that you spend to live, and you get some time for yourself. But you still have to work for someone. You simply sell yourself for money and then use that money to go another week or so to the next payment. Slavers today are simply called employers, and slaves are called workers. There is little difference then from now. Else where do people think paychecks come from ? Everyone is in some way indentured to someone else. It's called reality. So people really need to wake up and look at the chains they have on. The banks own you. Your employer owns you. The mortgage company owns you, and the federal government owns you (if you get a handout that is).

reply to post by gimme_some_truth

There were many black people forced to fight for the confederate army, by their white owners...

Soldiers did not fight in chain-gang conditions. They were basically unsupervised regiments, operating under orders received from messengers. If slaves were forced to fight in these conditions, how do you suppose they were unable to flee to the north?

Does this change the fact that their was this thing called the civil war, and in it, one of the things they fought over, was the right to own human beings? No.

As I earlier said, slavery was one issue. Read my last post.

You seem to be having trouble with context here. At that time, slavery was an accepted social institution, not just in the South, not just in America, but globally! The English had slaves; the Yankees had slaves, the Southerners had slaves, Africans had slaves, Europeans had slaves, China had slaves. Do I believe slavery is wrong and immoral? Yes, yes, YES!, a million times yes! But I also believe it is wrong to demonize a people, a culture, for doing something your very own ancestors did as well.

And that is what those who decry my flag are doing... they are demonizing my culture by interjecting their own incorrect thoughts, their own prejudices, where they are totally inappropriate. They are demonizing my culture, my forefathers, by failing to understand the historical conditions that existed at the time. They are demonizing my culture while at the same time ignoring other, greater examples of racism in their own culture.ai

Isn't it great that the union won so that we could move on and get started on this dream much quicker? I wonder how many years it would have taken us to get where we are now, if the south had won...You think we would have ever heard of Martin Luther King Jr? Hmmm

Again, you simply do not understand the Civil War. How many years of anger and hostility between the races have we had to experience because of the way the Civil War was waged? There are still pockets of racism in our country today for crying out loud! After 146 years!

Perhaps, just perhaps, if the financial interests that used the slavery issue to instigate a war born of economic interests had not done so, Dr. King would not have been killed. Perhaps, just perhaps, Rosa Parks could have sat in peace on the bus that fateful day. Perhaps, just perhaps, the KKK could still be about right and truth instead of about hate and prejudice as it is today. And perhaps, just perhaps, we could all see what John Lennon saw... a world of peace and harmony.

But yeah, maybe this way is better. You're right. We as a society need to learn the lesson we failed to learn before. What's a few thousand lives needlessly lost, millions of cases of true discrimination, centuries of fighting and hating, when we can manage to get rid of that flag!

TheRedneck

reply to post by xEphon


Wow... people exercising free speech and possibly holding beliefs that aren't identical to yours... what a disturbing trend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Isn't it odd that, if you suspect all blacks may be criminals, you are a racist... but if you suspect that all people who fly the rebel flag may be racists, that's completely cool? I hate hate HATE the hypocrisy that surrounds political correctness)

Originally posted by PassedKarma
I have certainly noticed an increase in racism in general. And people being blatantly open about it.

edit on 16-9-2011 by PassedKarma because: edit

Yeah okay, rewind 60 years and say that again about today? Last I checked, every day people are becoming more tolerant of each other. I live in NC and the only racist people I've met are angst-ridden African Americans getting hyped up with hatred because their favorite musician deems it worthy.

I don't see a problem with it.

Then again, I don't believe we have a constitutional right to not be offended.

Originally posted by imitator
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

Your saying the North started the war over slavery..... if so you would be VERY wrong . Like I said it's simple, the North feared the south becoming it's own economic power/ country. Nothing about slavery in that. Both had them before the war...

edit on 17-9-2011 by imitator because: (no reason given)

I know that the Northern Industrial States feared the South, the North, read that Washington D.C., even tried to raise taxes and tariffs on the import/export of Southern goods like cotton. Slavery was an issue that was on a lot of people's minds in those days, and Lincoln just took advantage of that, and used Slavery as a reason to declare Martial Law.
General Order 100
This "order" was never reascended people. We are still under General Order 100, declared and signed into law April 24, 1863. Francis Lieber wrote the law, so it is called "The Lieber Code."

All the Southern States did was walk out of Congress, and form their own form of government, using the US Constitution as a model.
The Constitution of the Confederate States of America

I know the schools teach kids how wrong and rebellious the Confederacy was, and how they all loved slavery, and held slaves, this is simply not the truth. In fact, most line soldiers were dirt poor, and some had never even seen a slave, and never owned one either. Some former slaves went with their masters and fought for the South, and the famous Fifty-fourth Massachusetts Infantry fought for the North. The 54th saw the most severe action, and earned most of their fame, from the part they played in an attack on Fort Wagner, Georgia, on July 18. A movie was made about this unit, it is called "Glory." Fort Wagner was heavily defended, with both rifled cannons, and sharpshooters. Nonetheless, the order came for the 54th Massachusetts to lead the way in storming the fort. They did just that, advancing through a withering storm of enemy fire. Many soldiers made it over the wall and into the fort. The vast majority, however, died in the attempt. That day, 281 men died, among them Colonel Shaw, who died urging his men to continue the advance. One member of the 54th Massachusetts who survived that day was Sergeant William Carney. Carney refused to let the flag of his regiment fall to the ground, or be captured by the enemy. He was shot several times, but survived and was later awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Read about him HERE.

There is much that people do not know about that terrible war, and it is often said the victors write the history books. My Great, Great Grandfather was with the Fourth Brigade (BG A.M. Scales) of the 34th North Carolina. He fell severely wounded at a place called the "Devil's Den" at Gettysburg on the second day's fighting. He also fought at Shiloh and Second Manasses. He went on to father a large family, but it is said of him that he was bitter at the Confederacy's loss of the war. As a small child in Virginia, I was taught to hate anything "yankee."

It is past time for the hate to end, people.

reply to post by autowrench

I honor your great-great-grandfather, sir, whenever I fly my flag. You should be proud.

In his honor, I want to repeat the most important part of your post, as I am sure he would have agreed:

It is past time for the hate to end, people.

TheRedneck

reply to post by sparrowstail

Just the other day I saw a pick up truck with a gun rack in the window and a confederate flag sticker in the corner of the window. Also on the flag sticker it read One Love. Ever see that before? Me neither.

I haven't seen that one either. Mine says, "These Colors Don't Run." The Confederacy is alive and well, and it is not about slavery now, nor was it ever. It is about the Freedom of the States to govern themselves, apart from Federal Laws. Is anyone really happy with the Federal Laws? I hate it that when I get in my van a Federal Law says I am forced to wear a seat belt. Now I use the seat belt anyway, I believe in them, but do I need a Federal Law to make me comply? And how about the forbidden subject, Medical Marijuana? 16 States now allow Medical Marijuana, even Washington D.C.

Washington, DC – 1998.

I live in the Republic of Ohio. My government is in Columbus, Ohio.

Medical marijuana was first passed in the federal district in 1998 with a record high vote of a approval coming in at 69%, however funding for the program was blocked by an act of Congress. A new measure was passed in May, 2010 and with the Democratically controlled Congress failing to intervene within 30 days, plans for 8 approved dispensaries are now in progress.

Allows for 2 oz useable, other forms TBD.

Approved for: HIV, AIDS, glaucoma, multiple sclerosis, cancer, other chronic conditions, or medical conditions for which the use of medical marijuana is beneficial (chemotherapy)

source

They are getting us ready for the whole elite class mentality of the plantations again, because thats where we are headed, a small ruling class that has all the money and the power, and the slaves. Skin color has nothing to do with it, its only the color green, as in money. They always said the south will rise again. What they meant was that the ruling families would eventually take everything and make us ALL slaves. Well, look around you. Jobs that pay just enough to get you from one paycheck to the next. Massive unemployment. destruction of unions and any social safety net. They are disarming the middle class. What will replace it is a slave class that is paid subsistance wages (if you are lucky). But first they want to use this symbol to get people in some kind of mindset that its a pride thing. I don't think so. Most southern whites don't realize that back then the plantation owners had only slightly less contempt for them than the african slaves (hence the term "white trash"), and their ancestors were just slaves with slightly more rights, a system set up by the landowners so the poor whites and the black slaves were kept separate so they didnt rise up against them in a unified front. History is attempting to repeat itself. Read the peoples history of the United States by Howard Zinn.

Originally posted by xEphon
I'm curious to see if this has been happening in the places you live too. I've noticed this here in PA. I hear many people claim it isn't about racism and frankly that's just BS. The confederate flag always has and always will be about racism.

The confederate flag never has been and never will be about racism, except for people who blindly accept government and media propaganda. The confederate flag is a symbol for independence.

The Civil War was about slavery about as much as the Iraq war was about liberating Iraqis to give them freedom. Lincoln was as upstanding and righteous of a freedom fighter as Bush Jr.

All states very obviously had a right to succeed from the Union. And the only thing that put a stop to it was cold-blooded murder. We lost our right to succeed at gun point. It was not only implied, but often threatened. And you know what... never once, until the civil war when several states acted on their promise. NEVER ONE TIME, did a state ever say... NO, you cannot succeed and do not have that right. Not once until Lincoln pulled out a gun and said no you can't succeed... but I'll murder you all in cold blood because I'm a politician and thats what we do.

72,524 Americans died in the confederate war for what the confederate flag represented TO THEM. And to them it represented independence. I don't think ignorance has earned you the right to define the flag for your biased motivations. I don't think your ignorance of the Civil War gets you the right to redefine what other people fly it for.

Tell you what, why don't you find someone flying a confederate flag, and them ask them what it means to them. You can ask whether they think slavery should still exist too. But until you've done that, your totally ignorant and blowing offensive hot air. Maybe there are a handful of people who believe government/media propaganda who adopted the confederate flag as s symbol of slavery. Good luck finding them, oh wrong one.

I am really glad that the OP can decide for "ME" what something means to "ME". The OP must really know what I think better than I do. And I guess the swastika only symbolizes Nazis and has no other meaning other than as a symbol of NAZIs.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I'm sorry, but how in the world could you not understand why people get mad about it? That would be like me using the word "fag", and then when someone get's upset, trying to say, "hey, wait a second there, bud. I meant it in terms that you look exhausted through strenuous work. Don't get mad at me, that's the very definition/origin".

Over time, words and symbols will change connotations. Sure, you can try and school someone on the origins of what it originally represented, but the fact remains about the present day, and how it is used today. But hey, if that's how you wanna play it, cool. But don't be too much of a fag, by having to explain the Confederate flags origins so hard.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

No, it is because I live in a town that until VERY recent years has been known (and is still considered by some) as one of the last remaining major Klan strongholds! Our town has fought desperately for decades to rid ourselves of the racist reputation and in recent years have made great headway. Yet every time there is any racial strife anywhere in our city's vicinity our city is still overrun with news crews trying to find the "remnants" and stir up the hate mongers.

The only people in our town that fly the confederate flag anymore are klansmen, the AB, and a few bikers. It's not that I don't know the history of the civil war. It's that when I personally see a confederate flag racism IS the first thing that comes to my mind, as well as most of the people in my particular area. Most people intentionally do not fly the flag exactly because of our towns shameful past and our desire to put the past behind us.

A lot of people on this thread jumped all over me and accused me of prejudice and implicated ignorance, but my guess would be that these people never had to explain why that guy wearing bedsheets was holding a noose around the neck of a guy wearing a monkey mask and holding a banana while another guy waved a Confederate flag on a busy street corner in the middle of town to a couple of small children- which is exactly what I had to do about 15 years ago! And if you're interested I told them they were dressing up early to practice for Halloween.

Don't know why I decided to reply to you but I did. Don't judge my amount of knowledge by what I express as my opinion. When I see a "Rebel" flag I think of the KKK and the skinheads just like I said. And yes, IN MY AREA it meant something different at one time but that isn't what my friends and family see it to symbolize. If you only see the good in it well then good for you- but I don't have to jump in your boat!

Originally posted by TreesusChrist

Originally posted by fireysnowman29

Originally posted by TreesusChrist
Almost every black person in the world will agree with the fact that the confederate flag is symbolic of oppression and racism. Weird how white southerners think it represents rebellion or freedom...

weird how every tom dick and harrry think they know what others think huh? fact that its symbolic of oppression and racism? think again

the flag is a part of American history. the saying "heritage not hate" holds true. the flag is hung up on my wall, no im not a southerner, i'm an American.

When people look at the confederate flag they see what symbolism they want to see. weird huh?

edit on 17-9-2011 by fireysnowman29 because: because i can

All that doesn't change what it means to black people.

they need to get over it

With regards to the flag, its a matter of perspective. The Nazi flag, to some older germans, might symbolize German nationalism. To most Jews, it symbolizes something else. I think its the same situation with the confederate flag. Some people may revere it, and some people may hate it and never the twain shall meet.