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Confusion on a quote from the NT

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posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I don't think that people who never changed are regenerate. But also, I don't judge someone's salvation because they may be a babe in Christ. When I look at someone I don't know how long they have been saved, I don't know their situation. They are the Lord's servant, He can deal with them as He sees fit. Not my job or my problem to make people yield to the Spirit.

And you need to calm down, no one is changing anything. You asked if I would deny the charge that I think repentance is not a prerequisite for salvation. I don't think it is a prerequisite. It's a by-product of salvation/justification/regeneration. How can a person repent that isn't under conviction of the Spirit? And "merit" means something we are entitled to based on what we do or say. If repentance was a prerequisite for God's salvation through Christ then it would not be grace. Something cannot both be a free gift of grace and something we must work towards simultaneously. It's either merit-based or by grace, and the Bible makes it quite clear we are justified freely by grace through faith.




posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

But also, I don't judge someone's salvation because they may be a babe in Christ.
You are changing the argument again.
I did not say anything about judging people.
I was talking about judging philosophies and what happens according to the NT to the teachers of the philosophy of the false prophet.
My main point has to do with teachings that are a help to those seeking salvation compared to teachings that are a hindrance to those seeking salvation. The emphases in the verses dealing with false prophets have to do with whether or not the converts are persuaded to go ahead and sin, or not. It does not deal in matters such as how they think about the role of repentance in the Christian's daily experience.
I never used the word, prerequisite, or use any other words that would imply that. I was talking about people who have accepted Jesus, and years later, are behaving exactly the same way as they did before they accepted Jesus.
You have some difficulty comprehending what I say because you have a different way of defining salvation. You think of it as something that happens when they accept Jesus. I think of it as being something that happens when someone finds themselves in heaven. So instead of thinking about a future salvation in the end for those who endure, you are wondering how or if someone can be un-saved.
Now you are saying that repentance is not necessary for salvation, disregarding the places in the NT where the Apostles, John the baptist, and Jesus called people to repentance so they can be saved.
Since you say salvation is free, how can you imagine anyone not being saved. Maybe that would be the question.
Anyway, my problem with your preaching on this forum is that you present yourself as a Christian and claim to be a Christian but you exhibit no Christian characteristics personally and you teach people not to care about sin and now, apparently, about anything. This is why I believe your philosophy is satanic, because it is designed to make sure none of its adherents could possibly be saved, since, for example, they are guilty of the crime of hate, greed, theft, and murder, by supporting the actions of Israel, unconditionally and then never repent of those sins because they are taught to believe that all those things are good.
edit on 8-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

But also, I don't judge someone's salvation because they may be a babe in Christ.
You are changing the argument again.
I did not say anything about judging people.


I said "I don't". Not talking about what you do.


I was talking about judging philosophies and what happens according to the NT to the teachers of the philosophy of the false prophet.


The only "philosophy" the Bible mentions of the false prophet is his insistence that people worship the beast as God.


My main point has to do with teachings that are a help to those seeking salvation compared to teachings that are a hindrance to those seeking salvation


So salvation is no longer a work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. The simple gospel is spelled out in Romans 10:9. That verse tells you what a person must believe and profess to be justified by God.


The emphases in the verses dealing with false prophets have to do with whether or not the converts are persuaded to go ahead and sin, or not.


Who is persuading folks to sin? That's absurd slander, I've never tried to convince someone to sin, that's 100% false.


It does not deal in matters such as how they think about the role of repentance in the Christian's daily experience.


You asked about the role of repentance in regards to salvation. So I answered.


I never used the word, prerequisite, or use any other words that would imply that. I was talking about people who have accepted Jesus, and years later, are behaving exactly the same way as they did before they accepted Jesus.


Well, actually this post is the first time you mentioned "years later", so with that qualifier I'd assume that person was never converted to begin with. I don't see how someone can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and their life not change as a result. I'd assume that person's conversion never took place.


You have some difficulty comprehending what I say because you have a different way of defining salvation.


We've went into this before. I don't like the word "salvation" being used to describe our justification. "Salvation" is spoken of in the Bible in the past, present, and future tenses. It's called the "3 Ps of salvation" in systematic theology. A person can effectually say "I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved."

Past Tense: (Justification) Saved from the PENALTY of sin, hell, by Christ's atoning work at Calvary.
Present Tense: (Sanctification) Saved from the POWER of sin over our lives by the conviction and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Future Tense: (Glorification) Saved from the PRESENCE of sin in our mortal bodies at the resurrection.

It's unfortunate that these three terms get confused and conflated, but that's what it is. Most people speak of "salvation" only in regards to making it to heaven.


You think of it as something that happens when they accept Jesus.


That's "justification". That's what simply declares us righteous. Sanctification makes us righteous. I don't confuse the two because they are two different things. I try my best to always use the term "justification" because it's more precise. But generally when someone says "saved" or "salvation" to refer to justification I understand what they are meaning to say.


I think of it as being something that happens when someone finds themselves in heaven.


No, we cross for "death to life" at the point our spirit's are reborn by the Holy Spirit. The gift of the Holy Spirit is our "down payment" for our inheritance.


edit on 8-9-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2011 @ 10:45 PM
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I have no idea why I couldn't reply to the rest of your post, but here goes:



So instead of thinking about a future salvation in the end for those who endure, you are wondering how or if someone can be un-saved.


I've never worried about someone becoming "unsaved", I believe in "If saved, always saved" simply because our justification rests upon what Jesus already did on our behalf. My errors don't negate His sacrifice. And while He hung on that cross all , my sins were yet future.


Now you are saying that repentance is not necessary for salvation, disregarding the places in the NT where the Apostles, John the baptist, and Jesus called people to repentance so they can be saved.


Can you show where a person must repent to be justified? I only know of repentance being a process of Sanctification which happens from the point of conversion till our physical deaths.


Since you say salvation is free, how can you imagine anyone not being saved. Maybe that would be the question.


Hold on.. since "I SAY"? Salvation by grace through faith is NOT my idea I concocted in my head. We are justified by grace alone. Grace is "unmerited favor" from God. "Unmerited" = free.


Anyway, my problem with your preaching on this forum is that you present yourself as a Christian and claim to be a Christian but you exhibit no Christian characteristics personally


How do you know this? You don't know me. You have never seen me in person, you don't know what I've placed my faith in and what I have not. Furthermore, Jesus Christ is Lord, I cannot believe that without the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3)


and you teach people not to care about sin and now, apparently, about anything.


That's slander, 100% lies. Can you provide me one instance where I have ever encouraged people to sin or to not care about sin? Be my guest. You're either quite confused about what I've said or your lying.


This is why I believe your philosophy is satanic, because it is designed to make sure none of its adherents could possibly be saved, since, for example, they are guilty of the crime of hate, greed, theft, and murder, by supporting the actions of Israel, unconditionally and then never repent of those sins because they are taught to believe that all those things are good.


Where did this absurd tripe come from?? More slander??



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 12:01 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

The simple gospel is spelled out in Romans 10:9. That verse tells you what a person must believe and profess to be justified by God.
The word, justified, is not in there, so it is not saying, 'Do these things and then you will be justified'. That would be salvation by works, as in, 'Say these particular words, and then you are good to go'.
Paul is talking about the Word of God, the message of God that we are to believe in, as a replacement for the Old Testament Law. Just as you don't just say, as a Jew, 'I believe in the Law', and are done, you don't hear the Word which brings salvation, then say, 'I heard the Gospel and believe it', and are done. You instill it into your heart and you live it and in that way, you may achieve salvation through perseverance in the faith.
The next verse (which you ignore) explains this as in the Greek, it says:
“believes to righteousness.” and “confesses to salvation.”

That's "justification". That's what simply declares us righteous.
Justification is a legal term and it is a positive outcome of judgement.
There are two ways to understand, faith, one way is the gift from God through the spirit which guides us into righteousness to where we can be eventually justified in judgement; the other way is to think of faith as a way of in your mind owning something which you do not currently have physical possession of, so you can trust in the faithfulness of God to keep his promise to those who endure to the end, so you have that assurance that you have that positive verdict from judgement though you have yet to stand in judgement.

Well, actually this post is the first time you mentioned "years later", so with that qualifier I'd assume that person was never converted to begin with. I don't see how someone can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and their life not change as a result. I'd assume that person's conversion never took place.
I thought you said that on the creation thread but maybe I have you confused with what XPlaneX said, so I may have made a mistake, or I assumed that since you did not object to what he posted, that you agreed with him.

Can you show where a person must repent to be justified? I only know of repentance being a process of Sanctification which happens from the point of conversion till our physical deaths.
"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also,
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." Acts 26:20

"I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn
to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus." Acts 20:21

Mark 6:12 So they went out and preached that all should repent.

Luke 24:47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For sadness as intended by God produces a repentance that leads to salvation, leaving no regret, but worldly sadness brings about death.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they ceased their objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted the repentance that leads to life even to the Gentiles.”

edit on 9-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 12:28 AM
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reply to post by jeramie
 


This seems to answer it in the right context. Good work jeramie. Part of the problem with this mode of communication, is when someone does all the work, and provides a satisfying answer, but the thread continues on as if the post doesn't even exist.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 09:49 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



The word, justified, is not in there, so it is not saying, 'Do these things and then you will be justified'. That would be salvation by works, as in, 'Say these particular words, and then you are good to go'.


Seriously, I'm not going to engage in semantic gymnastics over the central NT doctrine of justification.


Justification is the doctrine that God pardons, accepts, and declares a sinner to be "just" on the basis of Christ's righteousness (Rom 3:24-26; 4:25; 5:15-21) which results in God's peace (Rom 5:1), His Spirit (Rom 8:4), and salvation. Justification is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ apart from all works and merit of the sinner (cf. Rom 1:18-3:28).


Justification ~ Theopedia.com



Just as you don't just say, as a Jew, 'I believe in the Law', and are done, you don't hear the Word which brings salvation, then say, 'I heard the Gospel and believe it', and are done.


Why does Paul say the exact opposite? Paul says we are given the Spirit after we first believed what we HEARD:


"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?" ~ Galatians 3:1-5



Justification is a legal term and it is a positive outcome of judgement.


Correct, and for 2,000 years Christians have declared that God judged sin at Calvary. Our sins have already been judged, God poured out His wrath on our sins at Calvary. That's the central point of the Good News.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls." 1 Peter 2:24-25

Thus, when Jesus Christ hung upon the cross with our sins laid upon Him, we came to the realization that it is because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ's body and blood that we are justified from the guilt and penalty our sins. Expanding on this is Hebrews 10:5-10

"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'" First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."


I thought you said that on the creation thread but maybe I have you confused with what XPlaneX said, so I may have made a mistake, or I assumed that since you did not object to what he posted, that you agreed with him.


Yeah, I've got no clue what you were talking about, apology accepted. If a person's life never changes that should be a clear indication that they were never regenerated to begin with.


"First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also,
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." Acts 26:20


We should repent, continually! Our lives should be ones marked by repentance.

Our faith in Christ's sacrifice justifies us JM. And no, faith is NOT a work of righteousness. 10 books of the NT contrast faith and works, if they were the same those chapters and verses would be absolutely meaningless.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." Romans 3:28

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" Galatians 2:20-21


Christ, you didn't die for nothing. Thank you for the salvation you wrought by your faithfulness and sacrifice. Thank you for bearing my sins, Amen.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Seriously, I'm not going to engage in semantic gymnastics over the central NT doctrine of justification.
You already engaged in it by throwing that in when it was not in there, then pretending as if it was, so too late for saying you are not going to get into it.

edit on 9-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

We should repent, continually! Our lives should be ones marked by repentance.

Our faith in Christ's sacrifice justifies us JM. And no, faith is NOT a work of righteousness. 10 books of the NT contrast faith and works, if they were the same those chapters and verses would be absolutely meaningless.
That's funny because you were saying earlier repentance was part of sanctification so we never actually achieve repentance in this lifetime.
You are making me out as having said things which I did not, which is what you do all the time because you don't want to deal with what I actually do say.
Jesus' sacrifice is what gives us the opportunity to have a judgement by doing away with the Old Covenant and instituting the New Covenant, where some will be able to receive a positive verdict (justified). Faith which comes from God is the guiding influence on us to gain the righteousness required to get that positive verdict.
Faith is the substitute for the Law, where the old system had the law by which you would seek justification and the new system has faith by which you can seek justification. Faith is not just an intellectual assent to the Gospel. There is another word which would mean that, which is, belief. Also, "works" means doing particular things spelled out in the OT Law, and does not mean being good.
edit on 9-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Christ, you didn't die for nothing. Thank you for the salvation you wrought by your faithfulness and sacrifice. Thank you for bearing my sins, Amen.
No, Christ died so we can become suitable to represent the work of God.
The sacrifice was to free us from the covenant and the law and the god of the Old Testament so we can become the subjects of the Lord Jesus who replaced the person called lord in olden times, and to be in communion with the real God who created the entire universe, the Father of Jesus.
The bearing sins for us is an allusion to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, and means that he was accounted a sinner, but has nothing to do with dying to pay for sins.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Seriously, I'm not going to engage in semantic gymnastics over the central NT doctrine of justification.
You already engaged in it by throwing that in when it was not in there, then pretending as if it was, so too late for saying you are not going to get into it.


I didn't say I won't discuss the doctrine of justification, cuz I surely will, and have been, I said I will not "engage in symantic gymnastics" with the term.

Big difference.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Seriously, I'm not going to engage in semantic gymnastics over the central NT doctrine of justification.
You already engaged in it by throwing that in when it was not in there, then pretending as if it was, so too late for saying you are not going to get into it.


I didn't say I won't discuss the doctrine of justification, cuz I surely will, and have been, I said I will not "engage in symantic gymnastics" with the term.

Big difference.
You already did, by throwing the word in when it does not fit into the verse being discussed, and so changed the issue into something else, otherwise known as offering a red herring, thus being a "gymnastic".
edit on 9-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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Wrong, the verse was discussing justification, which is being declared righteous by God. The word itself wasn't used in that specific verse, but it was the dealing of the verse. Example, verses dealing with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't say "Trinity" but we've come to use the English Theological word to describe the nature of God as such.

So again, I'll not get into semantics over the doctrine of Soteriology, or "justification". There are plenty of other verses which use that specific word to describe the same thing. Did you even look at the link dealing with the doctrine of justification? Or am I wasting my time and energy?



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
Well, have a nice time and by your reasoning the whole Bible is about justification.
My point was that your technique of debate is to constantly shift your positions and to constantly steer the topics away from where it was, so all you really do is a lot of avoidance of the real issues and putting yourself into a situation where you start crying about how I am falsely accusing you of something.
So your goal seems to not be to actually make a point and defend it but to maneuver around to get me to where you can incriminate me. So it is all just a ploy to discredit what i say, not by argument but to discredit me personally.
The reason I would attribute for your behavior is your obstinacy to cling to what you worship which is this ideology with no firm biblical foundation since it is by nature meant to divert people away from true salvation but to accept the status quo of their life.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


No, the whole Bible is about Christ, and the entire theme is one of redemption. The Lord Jesus Christ is the hero of this existence, I'm nothing but a servant. No one is diverting, and you may be the only one in your pity party. I have nothing against you as a person. I'm not the one here who judges, condemns, or slanders, that's you JM. And no one, especially myself, has been teaching it's okay to sin. That's a lie and I've yet to hear your apology for continually claiming I advocate sin.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

And no one, especially myself, has been teaching it's okay to sin. That's a lie and I've yet to hear your apology for continually claiming I advocate sin.
What do you call it when you say adding any conditions makes it not free grace?
Not sinning, to you is adding a condition, so you are saying, sin all you want and it does not matter because all you have to do is ask one time, out loud, and with just the right words, your self-proclamation of being saved, and from that point on, nothing else matters.
edit on 9-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

We should repent, continually! Our lives should be ones marked by repentance.

Our faith in Christ's sacrifice justifies us JM. And no, faith is NOT a work of righteousness. 10 books of the NT contrast faith and works, if they were the same those chapters and verses would be absolutely meaningless.
That's funny because you were saying earlier repentance was part of sanctification so we never actually achieve repentance in this lifetime.


I never said "we never actually achieve repentance in this lifetime". Re-read what I said.


You are making me out as having said things which I did not, which is what you do all the time because you don't want to deal with what I actually do say.


That potentially is the most ironic statement I have ever read or heard JM. I'm constantly complaining that you straw man what I say and believe. But whatever, I've come to realize ATS is like a parallel universe where truth is lies, good is actually evil, up is really down, and the truth is all false.


Jesus' sacrifice is what gives us the opportunity to have a judgement by doing away with the Old Covenant and instituting the New Covenant, where some will be able to receive a positive verdict (justified).


Bull****, we are justified freely by God's grace based on the completed work of Christ. He bore our sins on the cross.


Faith which comes from God is the guiding influence on us to gain the righteousness required to get that positive verdict.


Nonsense, we are gifted Christ's righteousness, He took our sins and in exchange gives us His righteousness. It's what "imputation" means.


Faith is the substitute for the Law, where the old system had the law by which you would seek justification and the new system has faith by which you can seek justification.


Ever read Galatians? Paul states that man has always been justified by faith and gives Abraham as the example who was justified 530 years before the law was given to Moses.


Faith is not just an intellectual assent to the Gospel. There is another word which would mean that, which is, belief.


Correct, the synonym for "faith" is "trust", I place my trust in Christ that His sacrifice was a completed work for my justification.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Christ, you didn't die for nothing. Thank you for the salvation you wrought by your faithfulness and sacrifice. Thank you for bearing my sins, Amen.
No, Christ died so we can become suitable to represent the work of God.
The sacrifice was to free us from the covenant and the law and the god of the Old Testament so we can become the subjects of the Lord Jesus who replaced the person called lord in olden times, and to be in communion with the real God who created the entire universe, the Father of Jesus.
The bearing sins for us is an allusion to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, and means that he was accounted a sinner, but has nothing to do with dying to pay for sins.


More nonsense. Christ died for US. He died for OUR sins. He gave His life for us, bearing OUR sins on the cross.



posted on Sep, 9 2011 @ 10:50 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

And no one, especially myself, has been teaching it's okay to sin. That's a lie and I've yet to hear your apology for continually claiming I advocate sin.
What do you call it when you say adding any conditions makes it not free grace?


That's common sense! What does "free" mean? What does "grace" mean???? Free means FREE, grace means "unmerited favor from God.


Not sinning, to you is adding a condition, so you are saying, sin all you want and it does not matter because all you have to do is ask one time, out loud, and with just the right words, your self-proclamation of being saved, and from that point on, nothing else matters.


I've never said nor claimed any of that crap, MORE lies and slander.



posted on Sep, 10 2011 @ 12:31 AM
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"Repentance unto life is a saving grace, whereby a sinner out of a true sense of his sin, and apprehension of the mercy of God in Christ, doth, with grief and hatred of his sin, turn from it unto God, with full purpose of, and endeavor after new obedience".


Westminster Shorter Catechism



"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death." 2 Cor. 7:9-10



Christ's own words:


"Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14,15




"Biblical repentance as preached by John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the apostles, is A CHANGE OF MIND TOWARD GOD AND SIN THAT RESULTS IN A CHANGE OF LIFE. IT IS A SPIRIT-WROUGHT CHANGE OF MIND THAT LEADS TO A CHANGE OF LIFE. It is not a change of life. That would be a works salvation. It is a radical, Spirit-wrought change of mind toward sin and God, such a dramatic change of mind that it changes one’s actions. "


Biblical Repentance



"In the New Testament, the word translated as 'repentance' is the Greek word μετάνοια (metanoia), "after/behind one's mind", which is a compound word of the preposition 'meta' (after, with), and the verb 'noeo' (to perceive, to think, the result of perceiving or observing). In this compound word the preposition combines the two meanings of time and change, which may be denoted by 'after' and 'different'; so that the whole compound means: 'to think differently after'. Metanoia is therefore primarily an after-thought, different from the former thought; a change of mind accompanied by regret and change of conduct, "change of mind and heart", or, "change of consciousness". A description of repentance in the New Testament can be found in the parable of the prodigal son found in the Gospel of Luke (15 beginning at verse 11)."


Since you're so fond of Wikipedia.




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