Confusion on a quote from the NT

This would mostly be for Christians. Actually, thats not particularly true, it would be for anyone, who can maybe give me their thoughts respectfully. The reason, I personally state "mostly for Christians" is because, I am one, and I've already heard on here more than I can count, how the bible isn't real, God isn't real, Jesus wasn't ever here, etc etc etc. So, my answer? I believe in Jesus, I believe in the NT, so far, there has been nothing that has persuaded me from that faith and belief. Mainly due to my own personal experience. I would love to leave this open for everyone, but, I'd also like to save myself and everyone else a lot of time. I am always open to other people's opinions, as long as they are respectful. No, that does not mean "agreeing" with me, it simply means, if you are of another belief, or opposite belief...Great, but I'd like to keep the attacks at bay, and simply have an open discussion on something I read today that really had me making some questions. This is not a is God/Bible/Jesus, etc real or not real thread. This is a specific topic on something I read, and I'd like to hear from those who maybe have a deeper knowledge than I. So, if you are of any of the beliefs, I stated above, of course you are more than welcome to give your own opinion, I just ask that you please make your contribution to this thread worth while, and respectful. Thank you. With all that being said, I'll move along.

So, I'm watching mindless tv this afternoon, after a long long week of kids and laundry that seemed to double each day (mostly due to my 10 year old ) They are thankfully playing quietly in their rooms as I get to chill for about an hour till its time to start dinner. What happens to be on is something on Nostradamus. Its the end of it, and so of course that means they have turned to the selections in his writings of the end times. Along with that of course ties in the book of Revelation and Jesus. One man makes the statement that he himself believes the end times according to Jesus' terms already occurred, or rather, the interpretations were meant for a time that already passed. Yes, I have heard that before on here as well. But this specific point he reads from the bible that Jesus stated, his disciples would be around to see him come back. This was of course after he already returned from the dead, he told them, that the end would come, and that some of them would still be around to see the end times. I go to my bible and sure enough, he does in fact say that. But then, I come across another passage. That just seemed to jump out at me and had me wondering. So, here is the passage:

Its in The Book of John, chapter 21. Jesus is eating with some of the disciples, and having a discussion with Simon Peter, about what Simon's life is to be. He also warns him that there will be a time, when he is to be killed due to his belief and following and preaching of Jesus. They begin to walk and another disciple follows behind. It goes like this :

Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

We go on to learn that this particular disciple is John, who is actually writing the book, or claims to be. It goes on to read:

So a rumor that that disciple wouldn't die spread among Jesus' followers. But Jesus didn't say that he wouldn't die. What Jesus said was, "If I want him to live until I come again, how does that concern you?"

John then gives testimony that Jesus said and he wrote it down.

So, what exactly does this mean? I'm not sure what to exactly make of this.

reply to post by Nkinga

Maybe there is a problem with the translation?
Not sure what it means.
I'd like to know the answer to this one.



Maybe he means, he WANTS him to be alive when he gets back.
Not necessarily meaning that he will be alive.

There are differing views, but I've always taken the literal view of it. It really explains itself. Nothing esoteric or hidden here.

Basically, Jesus was saying mind your own business. I'll take care of John's business between myself and him.

Originally posted by Klassified
There are differing views, but I've always taken the literal view of it. It really explains itself. Nothing esoteric or hidden here.

Basically, Jesus was saying mind your own business. I'll take care of John's business between myself and him.

I think that's exactly what it means.
Jesus isn't saying that John would be around when he returned. He had already explained to the disciples that "no man knows the day or hour", and so on - essentially, they should have known (or at least have had some idea of what was going to happen) by this point.

Much of what the disciples knew and learned from Jesus didn't really hit them fully, or reach a full sense of knowledge and understanding until after Pentecost, when they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would "teach them all things", and essentially make known the depth of all that He had told them, and this is exactly what happened. So at this point, while they knew the information basis behind what Jesus had taught, but they didn't fully grasp the meaning of it. This is evident in the fact that they didn't even understand what was happening at the crucifixion, despite Jesus repeatedly telling them that he must be led away, and die, in order to accomplish what he came here to do. They certainly didn't understand the resurrection (see their utter despair in the gospels after Jesus' death - or the account of the men on the road to Emmaus).

I think likewise, the disiples weren't really interested in knowing whether John would be around, so much as they were interested in knowing when Jesus would come back... but Jesus had already given them all of the information they knew to make an informed decision about those things (see Matthew 24, as one example). His response was basically saying "not only is that not really your concern, but your focus should be on other things. If I want John to remain alive until I return, what does that have to do with you? Focus on what is important."

Hope that helps.

Mark 14:29-31(KJV)
29But Peter said unto him, Although all shall be offended, yet will not I.
30And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
31But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.

Mark 14:67-72(KJV)
67And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.
68But he denied, saying, I know not, neither understand I what thou sayest. And he went out into the porch; and the cock crew.
69And a maid saw him again, and began to say to them that stood by, This is one of them.
70And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto.
71But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.
72And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

By reading all the verses above (paying close attention to the two verses I put in bold), we see that Peter said he was willing to die with Jesus, and then we see that he had done what Jesus told him he would do- he denied Jesus three times.

By reading the following verses, we see that when Jesus visited the disciples after His resurrection, that Jesus tested Peter's faith by asking him three times if he loved Him (Jesus). By openly confessing 3 times to Jesus that he loved Him, Peter therefore undid the sin he had committed when he openly denied Jesus 3 times the night Jesus was crucified:

John 21:15-17(KJV)
15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

In the following verses, Jesus tells Peter that he will die, and that the way he would die would glorify God:

John 21:18-19(KJV)
18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

He had before offered to die with Jesus, yet he fled when it came down to it (Matthew 26:56). He said he would not deny Jesus, but he did 3 times, just like Jesus told him he would. When Jesus tells Peter that he would die, Peter's faith once again became weak. That is when the following is said:

John 21:20-23
20Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

When Jesus told Peter he would die, Peter got scared, and his faith wavered like it had in past situations. Peter saw John walking up, and, in a scared, weak faith state of mind, he says "What shall this man do?" He is basically saying, "Oh $***! If I'm going to die, then what about this guy?"

Jesus, who knows all our thoughts and feelings, then tells Peter to stop letting stuff like that weaken his faith. Peter had shown many times that he had little faith, and this was Jesus' way of telling him to have strong faith. If John lived until Jesus' second coming, that should have been of no concern to Peter. He needed to worry about his faith in Jesus. When he had learned to do this, worldly worries would not matter.

A little side note: Jesus did actually at one point tell Peter that he had little faith:
Matthew 14:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

reply to post by jeramie


Thank you so so very much. That actually makes a lot of sense! Thank you !

And thank you to all the other to who replied

I studied ministry for some time. I have an online and offline ministry now: I will not go back to Greek or Aramaic on this;; There is no need; because it shows the authority of Jesus. The key to the verse is on "If I want" want is only something someone should desire. He did not say if he did or did not desire this thing. He said "If I want" showing he may do as he pleases as he is the final solution. The second and most power part of this verse is the comment "what is that to you?"
once again showing his authority he is saying. "t really isn't any of your concern what "I" should want..indeed it isn't because he is the Son of God. Did the apostle understand that before? No afterwards ..? most likely. he was showing his authority. there is no conflict in the scriptures
DH

reply to post by Nkinga

But this specific point he reads from the bible that Jesus stated, his disciples would be around to see him come back. This was of course after he already returned from the dead, he told them, that the end would come, and that some of them would still be around to see the end times. I go to my bible and sure enough, he does in fact say that.

Stop right there, that's certainly not what Jesus said. He said there were some standing there among the apostles who would "see" Him coming in His kingdom. The Greek is even more specific about it being visual. And John did see Christ coming in His kingdom. 60 years later while in exile on the Isle of Patmos John received the revelation of the end and saw events that would transpire at that time.

That's how we have the book of Revelation, John was told to write all he saw and heard.

Originally posted by DavidsHope
I studied ministry for some time. I have an online and offline ministry now: I will not go back to Greek or Aramaic on this;; There is no need; because it shows the authority of Jesus. The key to the verse is on "If I want" want is only something someone should desire. He did not say if he did or did not desire this thing. He said "If I want" showing he may do as he pleases as he is the final solution. The second and most power part of this verse is the comment "what is that to you?"
once again showing his authority he is saying. "t really isn't any of your concern what "I" should want..indeed it isn't because he is the Son of God. Did the apostle understand that before? No afterwards ..? most likely. he was showing his authority. there is no conflict in the scriptures
DH

Aramaic? Which NT book was written in Aramaic? From what I was taught only a few chapters in Daniel and Ezra chapters 4 and 7 were penned in Aramaic. The NT was written in Koine Greek.

The answer to this, or at least my answer to this is that these people 'did not die'. They are alive.....and will remain alive and will witness the second coming.

The death of the physical body, is connected with the carnal lower aspect of the soul, which dies and binds us to the grave....but those who Jesus chose, didn't experience that sort of death.

From an islamic point of view (because i'm a muslim) these people only left this world, they didn't 'die'.

reply to post by Nkinga
This is how I always understood it.

So the sisters sent a message to Jesus, “Lord, look, the one you love is sick.” When Jesus heard this, he said, “This sickness will not lead to death, but to God’s glory, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” (Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.)

It never says Jesus loved John.
So if you have this person following the disciples who Jesus had raised from the dead, it would be natural for them to wonder what would happen to that person if Jesus did leave.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Nkinga

 

It never says Jesus loved John.

It appears your Bible trivia is a tad rusty.

"Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved."

John 13:23

"Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him."

John 20:2


And it's very interesting. Daniel was the OT prophet that the Bible says God "loved". In the NT it's John the apostle that He "loved". And both prophets were the main men to receive the visions of the future end of the age and tribulation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

It appears your Bible trivia is a tad rusty.

Have fun gloating but I am still right, it never identifies him as being John.
You have to use some philosophy to prove your point but philosophy is not evidence, it is just rationalization.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

It appears your Bible trivia is a tad rusty.

Have fun gloating but I am still right, it never identifies him as being John.
You have to use some philosophy to prove your point but philosophy is not evidence, it is just rationalization.

Quite an odd stance from someone who relishes in his ability to share his personal gatherings of most Biblical topics without relying on what the text says specifically. But anyways, you're wrong. John is referred to as the apostle whom Jesus loved, or Jesus's "beloved" apostle in more than one area.

There are four references to the Beloved Disciple in the Gospel of John:

It is the Beloved Disciple who, while reclining beside Jesus at the Last Supper, asks Jesus, after being requested by Peter to do so, who it is that will betray him.[Jn 13:23-25]

Later at the crucifixion, Jesus tells his mother, "Woman, here is your son", and to the Beloved Disciple he says, "Here is your mother."[Jn 19:26-27]

When Mary Magdalene discovers the empty tomb, she runs to tell the Beloved Disciple and Peter. The two men rush to the empty tomb and the Beloved Disciple is the first to reach the empty tomb. However, Peter is the first to enter.[Jn 20:1-10]

In John 21, the last chapter of the Gospel of John, the Beloved Disciple is one of seven fishermen involved in the miraculous catch of 153 fish.[Jn 21:1-25]

Disciple Whom Jesus Loved

"When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home."

John 19:26-27



The above is the conclusive text that identifies John as the "beloved apostle". Christ gave His mother to John while hanging on the cross.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The above is the conclusive text that identifies John as the "beloved apostle". Christ gave His mother to John while hanging on the cross.

That's no more conclusive than the other "proofs" you gave.

reply to post by Nkinga


Very interesting takes from everybody. I think I have a clearer view now, and feel secure in which conclusion I'd like to take. Thank you very much for all the replies and insight.

Originally posted by Klassified
There are differing views, but I've always taken the literal view of it. It really explains itself. Nothing esoteric or hidden here.

Basically, Jesus was saying mind your own business. I'll take care of John's business between myself and him.

Some people think that John is still alive today from these verses.

I hope you don't mind ex-Christians replying.

First things first....

Before you go and try to figure out what all this means maybe you should look at what you actually believe first. This will save you a lot of time going through scripture that may not be worthwhile reading anyway. Life is short. And as one that has been near death before, I think everyone should be wary of wasting their time on beliefs without substance.

Try the following websites. Sincerely, do it. It won't harm you, and you may learn something. If you are afraid of hearing both sides, you will never grow your mind or your spirit. If you are afraid of hearing truth, or other opinions, then your religion must be weak. However, if you can take on a challenge, that says a lot about you and what you believe. Here you go:

godisimaginary.com...

www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

www.infidels.org...

Good luck!

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The above is the conclusive text that identifies John as the "beloved apostle". Christ gave His mother to John while hanging on the cross.

That's no more conclusive than the other "proofs" you gave.

Evidence doesn't need to convince to be valid evidence. That part is up to you. John always referred to himself in his writings as the "beloved apostle" and the "apostle whom Jesus loved". You can accept that or reject it, that's your problem, not a problem with the text.